 Poster: A snowHead
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In the first week of the season, in Tignes, I did something similar to this going over a hidden rock on piste, the sound it made was horrendous. The edge of the ski wasn't split or damaged but I'd removed a fifty pence piece size of the base right through to the core and spent the rest of the week worrying I'd be fleeced when I went back to the shop as I didn't take extra insurance from them. I owned up when I went back before he looked at them and he was really decent to be fair to him. Just charged me the price we'd agreed at the start of the week. Guy Clarey at Clarey sport.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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You've been fleeced. Its outragous and wrong. BUT you should chalk it up and move on though as you won't get anywhere. Small claims - to France? CC company isn't going to investigate. Courier to collect skis (they will be in the skip)? Tested where - who does this and what would they charge?
Just chalk it up and move on with your life.
If your that pissed then put some reviews on trip advisor etc - keep to the facts though.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| philwig wrote: |
| The asset value of those old skis is close to zero, and they know it. The fact that they just turned zero into 200 euros must have made them all laugh about how daft their foreign customers are. "extra insurance" is protection money. |
Oh yeah it's a shakedown either way - no actual insurance gets written with the extra "premium". It's always struck me if you're in the business of renting kit then your tolerance of fair wear n tear ought morally to be quite wide i.e. if you want to rent your fleet in a low snow week the consequences should at least be shared. But as long as there are punters who are ignorant enough to accept 3 year old bottom end stock as "premium" and unwilling/unable to reject manifestly unfair contract terms (why should list price even be in the equation - at worst it should be replacement cost to the business). And there's always the alleged "numbers looking a little low let's just go and "recover" some of our stock from outside a local bar & charge people for stolen skis" for the truly corrupt. How much this latter is more than a urban myth I don't know.
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| Ryan wrote: |
You've been fleeced. Its outragous and wrong. BUT you should chalk it up and move on though as you won't get anywhere. Small claims - to France? CC company isn't going to investigate. Courier to collect skis (they will be in the skip)? Tested where - who does this and what would they charge?
Just chalk it up and move on with your life.
If your that pissed then put some reviews on trip advisor etc - keep to the facts though. |
I suggest you read the consumer rights act 2015. The OP potentially has a few claims.
1. Item is not what he actually contracted to hire.
2, The damage he can argue was present or bad repair.
3, The amount demanded is not fair terms and conditions as it is more than they paid for the skis new.
That last one is the real winner and yes you can claim against a company abroad though need to check if only when purchased in UK or if euro zone counts. If paid on CC they will have to get involved it is the law if on a bank card they have to get involved but it is an agreement not a law and if they do not you can report them to the FSA also bank cards are lower limit of spending for looking at a chargeback compared with a CC.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
if you want to rent your fleet in a low snow week the consequences should at least be shared
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Now, I'm making no promises or commitments, but as I understand it, I know one shop in Cham, who happen to do the servicing for many other shops so are properly tooled up have been renting their premium fleet since the start of the season. They're experienced enough to know what's "reasonable_given_the_conditions" and only if it looked as though you had really been taking the wee wee would they get upset.
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@Speed098 - I suggest you've got more time than sense and need to work out the value of your time 
You can spout consumer rights act 2015 (oh.. but thats UK right so lets brush up on our French and read their version of it) but my point still stands. Now its paid you will waste soooo much time trying to get anywhere and is it really worth it for €200? Is it right? No. Should they get away with it? No. But be pragmatic about this - whats your time valued at?
Now if it hadn't been paid and you want to argue the toss thats different - maybe a "send me a bill - I'll pass it onto my insurance company"
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@Ryan,
Ok when you get to resort just give the shop your wallet cards etc and pin numbers after all it's not right they should take your money unfairly or illegally but why put them through the hassle of concocting a story to fleece you.
You do not need to brush up on French you are covered for purchases abroad but hey if you can not be bothered reading, like being taken for a ride, and propagating the fleecing onto others by not standing up for your rights that is your prerogative. But does not mean everyone else has to be as meek as you seem to be.
And I at least have the sense to read up what my rights are unlike you maybe you should spend time learning yours.
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@Ryan,
Oh and a CC or bank card chargeback claim does not take a lot of time if you are at the bank maybe 20min to just over half an hour if you have paperwork from shop on you they will photocopy it and send to VISA for you. CC just phone them.
So half hour for you is not worth 200 euros ??
These two claims are pretty successful if you show breach of the 1979 or 2015 act dependent on when transaction happened.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@speed098 - Do you care to volunteer your time to help @mango's claim?
Do come back here and let us know how you got on.
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Given him, enough info in my posts first would be either CC or bank card VISA claim very little input for OP. If that does not work then it is reading the consumer credit act 2015 also where did he pay for the hire UK or France if UK then claim under said act should be straight forward. If OP wants info on that I would do my best to help.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Ryan wrote: |
| ... more time than sense and need to work out the value of your time ... but my point still stands. Now its paid you will waste soooo much time trying to get anywhere .. |
I'm from the other end of the spectrum - I would never stop until I'd got my cash back, even if it cost me more to do that than it's worth. The trick, in my humble opinion, is to telegraph to the bad boys that this is my approach so they don't bother in the first place. Mostly it works, sometimes I have to follow through, but the result's the same. Sure, I'd negotiate, but they need to know that they're not going to win. As I learnt at school, what it costs to fight back is not relevant: the issue is making sure that the other guy knows you're going to take that cost whatever it is.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@Ryan,
Alternatively as 200 euros is nothing to you ie not worth the hassle how about you send the OP the 200 euros ?
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| philwig wrote: |
| Ryan wrote: |
| ... more time than sense and need to work out the value of your time ... but my point still stands. Now its paid you will waste soooo much time trying to get anywhere .. |
I'm from the other end of the spectrum - I would never stop until I'd got my cash back, even if it cost me more to do that than it's worth. The trick, in my humble opinion, is to telegraph to the bad boys that this is my approach so they don't bother in the first place. Mostly it works, sometimes I have to follow through, but the result's the same. Sure, I'd negotiate, but they need to know that they're not going to win. As I learnt at school, what it costs to fight back is not relevant: the issue is making sure that the other guy knows you're going to take that cost whatever it is. |
+1
I've taken a coupe of companies as far as the Small Claims Court and have a 100% success rate. I've also taken a few others right to the wire when they have capitulated and paid up.
Disputing the charge via CC company is the simplest and quickest. Many CC companies have a decisioning matrix that evaluates things such as previous chargebacks by the customer, the value of the current claim and the time/effort they need to put in to investigate or recover. If the value is below their threshold then they refund the money without even contacting the retailer.
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You know it makes sense.
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I've had no reply from precision ski thus far so if i don't hear from them by the end of the week I'll be getting in touch with my CC company.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| mango wrote: |
| I've had no reply from precision ski thus far so if i don't hear from them by the end of the week I'll be getting in touch with my CC company. |
Make sure when you contact the CC that you inform them they wanted you to pay 600 euros first and also the police threat. You felt bullied and afraid you would miss your return journey be it flight or tunnel.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Put a brick through their window ! The French seem to like direct action if we study the past ! 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| speed098 wrote: |
| Ryan wrote: |
You've been fleeced. Its outragous and wrong. BUT you should chalk it up and move on though as you won't get anywhere. Small claims - to France? CC company isn't going to investigate. Courier to collect skis (they will be in the skip)? Tested where - who does this and what would they charge?
Just chalk it up and move on with your life.
If your that pissed then put some reviews on trip advisor etc - keep to the facts though. |
I suggest you read the consumer rights act 2015. The OP potentially has a few claims.
1. Item is not what he actually contracted to hire.
2, The damage he can argue was present or bad repair.
3, The amount demanded is not fair terms and conditions as it is more than they paid for the skis new.
That last one is the real winner and yes you can claim against a company abroad though need to check if only when purchased in UK or if euro zone counts. If paid on CC they will have to get involved it is the law if on a bank card they have to get involved but it is an agreement not a law and if they do not you can report them to the FSA also bank cards are lower limit of spending for looking at a chargeback compared with a CC. |
1 and 2 seem pretty much total losers. Since the OP accepted the skis for hire it's pretty difficult to come back later and complain. Rule 1 of hiring stuff is to inspect what you get before using it. Maybe there might (in theory) be some mileage in arguing that the skis was badly repaired, but the evidence from the photo seems pretty weak. Given the state of the edge it's pretty clear that either the ski must have noticeably damaged at the point of hire (which should have been easily noticeable by the customer), or the damage was done during the hire period. To not notice a broken edge (and a bad repair!) on a pair of skis you are hiring means you really haven't looked over them. There might be some chance under 3, that depends on the exact wording of the contract. The company could probably argue that the price is higher than book value because of additional costs and loss of hire income whle a replacement is sourced. I agree that the cost charged is a classic rip-off, but the main lesson is to be streetwise. That fact that the OP agreed (in the shop) to pay 200 Euro was also probably a tactical mistake, since it's always hard to rescind on an agreed sum after the fact.
Worth a go with CC company since time spent is not that much. But at some point it seems sensible to realise that although 200 Euro is painful, even a lot of effort might only get some of that back. Time costs money.
poo-poo happens. I was gouged for a excessive cleaning charge on a flat which I felt we left in a spotless condition and was verbally OK'd. Now I always insist on the staff putting that in writing if thaey have taken a credit card swipe. I was annoyed, but I wasn't going to waste my life trying to get the money back. I just learned the lesson and moved on.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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So to sum up, the OP:
Accepted the skis as meeting his requirement when he took them.
Declined damage waiver insurance.
Trashed the skis, but didn't notice that he had done so.
Was charged a sum that maybe hurt, but not worth spending more time over.
Stuff happens.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| achilles wrote: |
So to sum up, the OP:
Accepted the skis as meeting his requirement when he took them.
Declined damage waiver insurance.
Trashed the skis, but didn't notice that he had done so.
Was charged a sum that maybe hurt, but not worth spending more time over.
Stuff happens. |
Fair assessment.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| achilles wrote: |
So to sum up, the OP:
Accepted the skis as meeting his requirement when he took them.
Declined damage waiver insurance.
Trashed the skis, but didn't notice that he had done so.
Was charged a sum that maybe hurt, but not worth spending more time over.
Stuff happens. |
1. I trusted the shop to provide what was ordered. I go skiing once a year and I have no knowledge of different makes and models and how they would fit into a Hire shops categorisation. The Precision Ski website describes their 5 options as: Standard, Evolution, Precision, Premium and Prestige. My order confirmation stated "Performance - Rossignol 16.5 or equivalent". So where does that fit into their naming scheme? Should i have been googling for the specs before accepting them?
2. Yes, as I had taken out an insurance policy with winter sports cover. However, the excess for loss and damage was £150 which I didn't realise. Lesson Learnt, take out the shops insurance.
3. As i explained before, I went down blue runs all week. It was also snowing most of the week so I HAD to be careful as I can't see that great in low vis. if i had "trashed" the skis I wouldn't be on here asking for advice. The skis felt the same on day 6 as they did on day one, so go figure.
4. Isn't that relative to the individual? £150 to you might not seem a lot but to someone else, who'd already paid out £800+ for chalet, flight, transfer and lift pass might find it harder to take. Especially as it wasn't something budgeted for.
5. yes it does. which is why i asked for some advice. I'm not crying my eyes out over it. Or losing sleep. Or "wasting" my life (as another poster put it) on it. So far I've asked a question on a skiing forum and emailed the company i rented with.
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wouldn't bother with emailing them, id go straight to your CC. Certain amounts just get refunded straight away anyway. tell them you where threatened and scared of being stranded etc along with the rest and you'll be off in 30 mins 200 euros up.
Also anyone Else's keyboard also missing a key to display euros, not just pounds and dollars 
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@mango, for what it's worth I think you've been fleeced. having said that I think the proposed means of recourse in this thread are unlikely to get you anywhere. You could potentially get a bit of a refund for not getting the right skis (the quantum being the difference in cost between the skis you hired and those you got), but that's the height of it.
I appreciate you don't recall having hit anything but I think it will be very difficult for you to persuade anyone that either:
a: The ski had that damage when you picked it up but you didn't notice it
b: The ski had some past repair that came dramatically unstuck during normal use
Both of course are possible but I'd say on the pretty clear balance of probabilities, you hit something and didn't notice it.
I'd put it down to experience and use a different shop next time. A couple of times I have trashed hire equipment through mis use on my part and I've never been charged by a hire shop. I don't doubt the terms and conditions permit them to charge to, I just think generally they don't. The cynic in me suspects its been a slow season and they are using you as a revenue booster. Vote with your feet, go elsewhere next time and give them negative feedback if you like.
If you do pursue it further however, please do keep us all in the loop. The end of these stories is always interesting.
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Get with the program, you accepted the skies - you declined insurance and returned them damaged - pay the money and for the next few trips rent cheap skis to recoup your losses. You clearly don't know the difference between different skis so it wont be an issue.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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To get Euro hold right most ALT key and hit 4 - € € € - somethings I can fix
@mango - BTW didn't mean to offend you (if indeed I did) just giving my 2p worth that your unlikely to get anywhere. Worth a call to the CC company as its quick but seriously I wouldn't bother taking it any further as I thing you will spend a *lot* of time and get nowhere. Plenty of others think opposite though and are almost howling with outrage so take your pick of the advice but let us know how you get on.
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I don't think it would be impossible to:
a) cause that kind of damage and not notice.
b) have that kind of damage for a week and not see it at all
Were they definitely the same pair that you hired? Are you sure that no one could have swapped them?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Ryan wrote: |
| To get Euro hold right most ALT key and hit 4 - € € € - somethings I can fix |
Not on my keyboard it isn't. I need to do AltGr and 4 to get a €.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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It is def worth contacting CC make sure you give all info to support all parts ie threatened with police if did not pay amount they originally demanded and eventually forced you to pay as you feared being arrested. How skis where not from the category you actually contracted to rent but as you do not ski a lot did not know till you got back home you just accepted that the shop gave what you ordered.
Find out the approx cost of these skis to the shop ie how much they actually paid. If they paid less than 600 euros this is strong evidence of unfair contract. Imagine being in a car accident and the other driver demands £50k for their 4 yr old Ford Focus 1.6l do you think your insurers would pay that ?
Taking it to court is more work but not as much as some on here think but that has to be your decision but doing some research re your consumer rights can strengthen a CC claim.
To me it seems quite a few on here are not bothering to look at the consumer rights act/sale of goods act and how T&C have to be fair ie not weighted unfairly in favor of the company who are the ones who drew them up. The reason the law acts this way is because otherwise we would need to agree T&C on every purchase, but this allows the shop/company to do this on our behalf thus saving a lot of time for both parties. but with the knowledge that if the terms are unfair they are not enforceable under law.
Another way to look at it if you can take them to the small claims court here under the consumer rights act 2015 how likely do you think it is they would turn up ?
Good luck look at your options be prepared and be willing to negotiate, I hope you get most if not all the money back.
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You know it makes sense.
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The key issue is that the OP did not complain at the time. If I book and pay for a hire car expecting a certain category of car but are offered something I consider inferior when I pick it up I will complain. But if I accept what is offered I don't think there is that much leverage in complaining later. And if there is a big scratch in the door it's important to make sure that's recorded in the written damage report and signed off before driving away.
Similarly a negotiation took place when the skis were returned and the OP agreed to pay the sum of 200 Euro for the damage. The same thing applies with cars. Standard advice in the event of a minor accident is never admit liability on the spot and certainly never pay anything for damage until the issue has been assessed by a loss adjustor. The OP should have stood firm in the shop and made it clear that the issue was in still in dispute and that any payment was to be considered provisional until the loss could be properly assessed.
I'm not saying what the shop did was quite right or fair. But the case as it stands is pretty weak. Maybe the CC will pursue it, but I would not be optimistic. Nor would I think a small claims court approach would cut much ice. The shop can argue additional costs, labour and loss of rental income while sourcing a replacement. The 200 Euro is not just about the price of the skis, so there is not as much margin for negotiation and counter argument as might be thought. Even if the judgement was in favour of the OP, what is the likelihood of the judgement ever being served on a French company and seeing any money?
There is no point in throwing good money after bad. At least that's my opinion.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@hyperkub,
I think you will find not paying 600 euros is complaining, but after threats of police had no choice but to pay 200 euros, one third of the original sum demanded.
How many will stand firm under threats of police, missing flights and additional costs of then getting home. Just because you handed money over under duress because you are threatened with the police does not mean you have given up your rights.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Honestly (IMHO) I have never read such a lot of rubbish. You entered a contract and you accepted the skis, - you declined cheap insurance that is designed to mitigate these issues and then returned them with a cracked edge.
The shop is in business to make a bit of cash and provide an invaluable service to its punters. They have made a reasonable offer and still you argue.
Learn the lessons, take insurance - check the equipment and understand what you are committed too.
If you don't like the terms of the contract make other arrangements but don't try to screw a small business having entered a contract.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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The snow was terrible, the risk of damage was high. Next time, in those circumstances, take the insurance.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| marcellus wrote: |
Because it often is..... Think about your insurance....... If your property gets lost, stolen, trashed then would you expect someone to find some 2nd hand 2 year old gear to replace it with or would you expect something new? |
Do you rent out your property to all and sundry?
I don't think the Gendarmerie or Police Municipal would get involved in this case. The Police Municipal have very limited powers, they can't even ask your identity and for the Gendarmerie it is a contract dispute. My only sense of doubt is that this is a ski resort so you are essentially dealing with a mafia.
As for the T&C - are they enforceable? Those look like junker skis which you'd have difficulty palming off in the local ski fayre. However it is a good warning to check hire gear, especially edge splits which are common, before you accept the skis. It is a double scam for you, they've given you junker skis to ski on and they've scammed you for 200 euros. Treble genepi all round in the hire shop.
As fro the damage, I think the mark in the base is just a dent from the collision, not a repair. It could have been a repair though. You'd certainly have an "oh poo-poo" moment after that kind of damage and check your bases.
> That last one is the real winner and yes you can claim against a company abroad
You can but you have to still get the UK order confirmed in France by a French judge. It should be routine but being France, isn't always. As an example my wife dealt with a non delivery of a 250,000 euro Ferrari a couple of years back. Now this wasn't a small CC affair but more serious. Now the UK lawyers made a number of booboos which didn't help - for example they contacted a Paris law firm to get enforcement not the Nice law firm my wife suggested. Paris lawyers have no power in the Nice courts, you have to have lawyers that are part of the local Bar. Anyway between a Bleakhouse array of lawyers and bailiffs the client lost another 25K of his money and recovered nothing in the end.
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Fri 22-01-16 8:51; edited 1 time in total
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Frosty the Snowman wrote: |
| The snow was terrible, the risk of damage was high. Next time, in those circumstances, take the insurance. |
 Yes all that snowed that fell all week really screwed things up!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Never pay ANY tips in restaurants in Ski resorts - potential lifetime saving - €500
Expect to trash one pair of skis in lifetime of skiing - potential cost €200
Just accept the odd €200 hit in the knowledge that you will still be €300 better off over a skiing career.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| achilles wrote: |
So to sum up, the OP:
Trusted the skis as meeting the contract when he took them.
Declined damage waiver insurance.
Swears he didn't trash the skis
Was charged a sum that maybe hurt, but might be worth spending time on even just for the personal satisfaction of scoring back against the chiselling barstewards
Stuff happens. |
...Alternatively.
For me all this essence of the contract stuff is significantly undermined by the evident lack of good faith by the rental shop "expert" pushing "junk shop shite" out the door as "performance grade" in the first place.
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^interweb jong
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Fri 22-01-16 16:40; edited 1 time in total
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| mango wrote: |
| Frosty the Snowman wrote: |
| The snow was terrible, the risk of damage was high. Next time, in those circumstances, take the insurance. |
Yes all that snowed that fell all week really screwed things up! |
Oops, Having read the thread now I see the snow was fine. You couldn't ski on that damage without realising there was a problem. The ski would drag and feel very different. It's also quite incredible that you didn't notice the damage when handling the skis. The only other option I can come up with is that the ski has has fallen over after you have finished using it and fallen on something hard.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Or you handed them back and they had another similar pair damaged previously and they quickly swapped them over as they twigged you never inspected them yourself before handing them back. Probably done it a few times and as long as they keep getting something will continue doing it. Funny how when car hire we are all careful but skiis, cant wait to get out there and use them then just hand them straight back.
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A friend of mine just got stung by a hire shop in Morzine.
He lost a ski on the mountain when the heel piece of the binding just came off the ski mid blue slope, taking the brake with it.
He fell but the ski zoomed down and down and down, never to be seen again.
Required a snowmobile rescue, and could not continue skiing that day.
He is a very modest skier in his late 60's and was not dong anything fast or strenuous.
The ski shop stuck him for a brand new pair claiming it was his fault.
Name and shame: Action Sports
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FAQ
