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Ski tuning by hand or ski tuning by machine?

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Experiences of either? Thoughts?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
By hand it is more satisfying when you do a good job plus quite therapeutic for me Shocked
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
My daughter has just gone up to Senior school and joined the school racing team , every Sunday before training on the plastic I have to wax her skis , I love doing it and even took my prep kit away this Xmas / New year and did all our skis whilst away , as @speed098 said very therapeutic , next on the list is learning to fill holes Very Happy
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Q&P. anything else and you just get upset when you hit a rock/stump/gravel first day out.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Both work.

Hand gives the best result if you have the time, good tools and the skill.
Machine gives a quicker result, but you need the machine and the skill to use it.

Whichever you use, you still need the knowledge to decide on edge angles, detuning (if you still go there), waxes, etc., all of which can make a major difference. But the biggest difference is the skier: a good skier on poorly tuned skis will be better than a cr*p skier on the best tuned skies.
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.khfuohgg
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I had a misfortune of having the above damage inflicted to my ski at MK (by a tree stomp - they hadn't made enough snow Sad

I took Spyderjon's course and know how to fix it - but by using a wax kandle.
If the location was different that probably would have sufficed but, being so close to the edge, it probably calls for a p-tex strip fill.

What do you lot think Puzzled
If Spyderjon sees this, I'd very much welcome his opinion Crying or Very sad
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After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
@Good Stuff Ski, "eke" not "eek" on your website.

I am told by brotherinlaw that his shop's machine does at least as good a finish with less wastage...
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Have spent a considerable number of hours over Saturday and Sunday edging and waxing my sons training and race skis and also two pairs of my own (one pair never got waxed as ran out of time) I'd love a machine that could speed up the process. Toofy Grin Toofy Grin Toofy Grin
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@snowglider, Hi you need a bit more that a Ptex candle, it looks like you have gone down to the core and are also up against the edge, looks like metal grip is needed, with the candle it probably won't bind.
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@under a new name, "eke" not "eek" on your website

where abouts?
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@under a new name, cheers for that, now rectified!
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@radar, thanks mate. It's not town to the core, it's not penetrated through the p-tex base. It's maybe about 1,5 - 2mm deep though.
Yeah I reckoned the p-tex candle would be no good but I was hoping a p-tex strip (the non - burning one) would do it?

In the picture it looks like it's gouged to the edge but, again, it actually isn't - though I'm not sure that it matters at all, since there's about a hair's breath between the gouge and the edge?
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@Good Stuff Ski, no worries. I am a spelling nazi.

Now, of no interest directly to me but your prices look very good, especially for hand finishing Happy
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Yes they are competitive prices compared to my local competition, Brighams especially!
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@snowglider, yes the Ptex strip would work, its just how you weld it in, not sure if Jon showed you how he does it with the base doc?
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If you are advertising servicing, then IMO there are two extremes:
- the one-man band, who can emphasis the care they take over each pair of skis and tune then to the exact requirements of the customer (who in many cases doesn't really know what the optimum settings are)
- the big business who can invest the €1,000,000 (or whatever) in the latest computer-controlled wizardry from Winterstieger/etc and guarantee to return the skis to the factory setting or as desired by the skier - and get it exactly the same every time.

But as for the posted damage, then that is not IMO tuning - that is base repair which is a different subject. For that, I'd use a little metal-grip followed by molten ptex from a repair pistol. Candles are fine for a temporary repair whilst away, but wear quickly and need a proper repair when facilities allow. After the repair, then do the normal service.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
RobW wrote:
If you are advertising servicing, then IMO there are two extremes:
- the one-man band, who can emphasis the care they take over each pair of skis and tune then to the exact requirements of the customer (who in many cases doesn't really know what the optimum settings are)
- the big business who can invest the €1,000,000 (or whatever) in the latest computer-controlled wizardry from Winterstieger/etc and guarantee to return the skis to the factory setting or as desired by the skier - and get it exactly the same every time.

Completely agree. I put a lengthy post recently on the 3V's weather thread about the new Wintersteiger machine at Skiset in La Tania that will do base edges as well as side edges to whatever degree you want along with ceramic polishing/hardening of the base edge. Absolutely the best ski service I've ever had and better than they were out of the wrapper.

I think until this machine came out, hand tuning was probably better but I don't see how a hand tuner can compete with the consistency that this level of technology brings. The ceramic polishing part was previously available as a stand alone machine for finishing race skis etc. for serious race clubs but it's now combined into the full service machine for any old punter. Superbe!
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@radar, nah, he didn't. I guess in the end, by the looks of it, I might have to take it somewhere to be repaired. Trouble is, I intend to go away soon, so the timing could hardly have been any worse. Sad

@RobW, I agree this is a repair and not really a tune. I just wanted to avoid starting an entire new thread (though in hind sight maybe I should have). So I used the opportunity to ask my question here, as it's summat (although admittedly, loosely) related.

Not sure what you mean by "advertising servicing" Puzzled
I assure you that I am not, and that the question is 100% genuine.
Thanks for your advice, though I don't really know what metal grip is?
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snowglider wrote:
Not sure what you mean by "advertising servicing"


Advertising yourself as offering servicing. IMO you either need to be a top-end hand-tuner, or have the latest hi-tec machines - either way you need to be good to compete against the chains.

Quote:
I don't really know what metal grip is?


See http://www.edgeandwax.co.uk/4831/products/metal_grip_piece_30cm.aspx
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snowglider wrote:

Not sure what you mean by "advertising servicing" Puzzled
I assure you that I am not, and that the question is 100% genuine.
Thanks for your advice, though I don't really know what metal grip is?


I think there is a bit of a misunderstanding going on. I think RobW is mixing up you and the OP who is advertising servicing.
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@RobW, it is @Good Stuff Ski who is advertising not @snowglider.
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@snowglider, p-tex won't bond to either the ski core or exposed metal edge which is why a basic candle repair will fail. It needs to be a welded repair on top of a thin metalgrip foundation/primer layer using a tool like the Kunzmann Base Doc II or the Skimender 105 or 360 pistol etc. http://www.thepisteoffice.com/index.php/tuning-guide/13-base-repairs.html

The kit do a welded repair is pricey compared to a pack of candles & a metal scraper. Any decent shop should do it for a few quid but unfortunately many are still in the dark ages and will either want to put a patch in &/or grind the ski instead of dressing down the area by hand. George at http://www.gbskiservicing.co.uk will do a great job & shouldn't be too far from you.
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Thanks, @Gaza. It didn't make sense to me (but now it does).

@RobW, I know very well what "advertising servicing" means in its literal sense (although English isn't my mother tongue). I just couldn't quite work out why you were suggesting that I was advertising anything, when I was simply asking for advice?
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@snowglider, as you say the damage isn't down to the core you could use the Ptex candle to fix it. No need to worry about what metal grip is Very Happy
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@spyderjon, thanks very much mate for coming to the rescue, at mach speed!
As ever, a true gent. What would I ever do without you? Laughing
Will be contacting George first thing tomorrow.

Much appreciated, mate. Will have to buy you another beer and a cake when I see you next! snowHead
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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radar wrote:
@snowglider, as you say the damage isn't down to the core you could use the Ptex candle to fix it. No need to worry about what metal grip is Very Happy

It looks to me like the metal edge filament is exposed - if so it'll need MG'ing.
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So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@radar, it most definitely isn't. And it definitely hadn't exposed the edge either.

But I'm aware a p-tex candle fix won't be as durable as a p-tex ribbon fix.
I'm pressed for time now so will probably just drop off the ski at the shop that @spyderjon recommended, but I will probably order one of the repair kits from him, and when I see him next (probably at the EoSB), I'll see if I can bribe him with more beer into showing me how to use it! Laughing

Thanks to you as well mate for your kind advice snowHead
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
spyderjon wrote:
radar wrote:
@snowglider, as you say the damage isn't down to the core you could use the Ptex candle to fix it. No need to worry about what metal grip is Very Happy

It looks to me like the metal edge filament is exposed - if so it'll need MG'ing.

I think that it isn't (the angle the picture is taken from might make it appear that way).
I'm not at home now so I will try to take a better picture when I get home.

However if you reckon that it's definitely exposed, then MG it'll be
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snowglider wrote:
...However if you reckon that it's definitely exposed, then MG it'll be

Must be a trick of the light - the bottom of the gouge just look a bit shiny/metallic. Basically if the bottom of the hole is black then it's p-tex so get candle'ing Toofy Grin
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@snowglider, a recommendation mention this post when calling George
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@snowglider, said:
Quote:
What do you lot think

bad luck .... those look like pretty new, unblemished skis.

However, at the risk of being branded a heretic (and depending how proud you are of your skis) you could always consider some black epoxy such as J.B.Weld or similar.

This is a fix to an older pair of touring skis, which had some serious rock damage in 2011 from a run in superb deep snow from Punta Indren to Alagna - I must have found the only rock on the mountain Confused

This was a double core-shot: one about 80mm x 20mm and the other about 160mm x 5mm which I carefully filled with epoxy-metal then sanded off with a belt sander. It may not be perfect (and might knock fractions off my race-time Toofy Grin Toofy Grin ) but has survived several years more use.

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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Depending upon the degree of work.................... There was a time when no machinery existed. Then too, there was a time when many things did not exist such as glitter pants, but I digress............. That said, sometimes a base grinder does wonders as a starting point. I said a starting point, thank you. But, in the end, working base by hand, by a competent, knowledgeable individual IS where it is at, period.
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Can In just clarify, I'm not advertising my services, just interested to get the opinions from some skiers, call it market research. Some good points on here, thanks for the feedback.
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snowglider wrote:
I had a misfortune of having the above damage inflicted to my ski at MK (by a tree stomp - they hadn't made enough snow Sad

I took Spyderjon's course and know how to fix it - but by using a wax kandle.
If the location was different that probably would have sufficed but, being so close to the edge, it probably calls for a p-tex strip fill.

What do you lot think Puzzled
If Spyderjon sees this, I'd very much welcome his opinion Crying or Very sad


are you talking about that tiny little nick? Slap a bit of hot p-text into it. If I got my knickers in a knot for every little nick I'd never go skiing.
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@davidof, if it was a bit further away from the edge, I wouldn't give two hoots about it.

What worries me is that a candle p-tex is softer than the ribbon p-tex (as it contains additives which enable it to burn). And after having been burnt, it contains carbon and other impurities etc which weaken it further.

The candle repair hence may not be strong enough and, if I were unfortunate enough to find another rock (and we all know that mr Murphy resides on the mountain) Laughing , and gouge the softer compound and pull the edge.
That is my worry, otherwise I couldn't care less.

I'm a freshman though when it comes to such matters, hence asking the good people on here what they make of it Smile
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davidof wrote:

are you talking about that tiny little nick? Slap a bit of hot p-text into it. If I got my knickers in a knot for every little nick I'd never go skiing.


+1

Not even sure it counts as a knick

Rule 5 Happy
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Quote:

If I got my knickers in a knot for every little nick I'd never go skiing.


ditto
I once got a core shot on the first morning on new skis. It was a powder day. The only thing that meant I wasn't over it that afternoon was that I had to be on rentals the next day while the repair cured.
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PaulC1984 wrote:

Rule 5 Happy


HTFU?
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@davidof, MTFU, but yes your close Happy
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