 Poster: A snowHead
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JamesN,
I go with ESF simply because it offers cheap guiding an take it upon myself to have the proper kit, but I do think they encourage the wrong attitudes.
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who is going to dig you out though if they don't have any gear 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Pruman wrote: |
Aren't more avalanched on a risk 2 day than any other?
But I agree, skied heaps off piste in Verbier and Chamonix in the early 80s and nobody carried any gear, not even probe and shovel - that was ski patrol stuff! I'd love to know what the % fatality rate is now compared to then if there is such a stat available. I know many more are accessing the off piste these days but feels to me that the incident rate has worsened. |
30 deaths per year then, 30 deaths per year now (France).
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| peanuthead wrote: |
| . But we did have transceivers and instructor had shovel/ probe. |
Not a lot of use if your instructor is the one buried.
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@davidof, that's very interesting. Must be viewed against numbers of participants. Surely?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@wsirhc, an interesting thought. An off the cuff thought would be that the risk-reward ratio is not the same.
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If you go diving below a certain depth (not, I guess,very deep) and get it a little wrong, you die.
If you go off piste a little (maybe quite far) and get your avalanche reading a little wrong, you probably don't even notice.
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| under a new name wrote: |
| @davidof, that's very interesting. Must be viewed against numbers of participants. Surely? |
Yes but no one has exact figures but one can assume that off piste skiing is much safer now than the days we dragged a bit of red string behind us when skiing.
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There's a drag lift here in Serre (Eychauda) that when open gives access to some great, but potentially dangerous off piste.
I've said a few times (and think I was berated on here for it) that for a day or two after it opens they should only allow those geared up to go up there, this was after I was in Gressonoy and an Italian policeman was on a skidoo doing just that prior to taking another lift up to the highest part of the resort.
I then heard on Friday that they did indeed do that, (must have missed it) and the ESF groups could not go up, and there was a right old fourore kicking off.
But it does make sense when you see some of the people going up in these sectors, though they do make them as safe as possible before opening.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Weathercam wrote: |
There's a drag lift here in Serre (Eychauda) that when open gives access to some great, but potentially dangerous off piste.
I've said a few times (and think I was berated on here for it) that for a day or two after it opens they should only allow those geared up to go up there, this was after I was in Gressonoy and an Italian policeman was on a skidoo doing just that prior to taking another lift up to the highest part of the resort.
I then heard on Friday that they did indeed do that, (must have missed it) and the ESF groups could not go up, and there was a right old fourore kicking off.
But it does make sense when you see some of the people going up in these sectors, though they do make them as safe as possible before opening. |
or they keep the lifts with access to dangerous sectors closed longer?
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| geeo wrote: |
| Quote: |
JamesN,
I go with ESF simply because it offers cheap guiding an take it upon myself to have the proper kit, but I do think they encourage the wrong attitudes.
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who is going to dig you out though if they don't have any gear |
I work on the assumption that if its a big enough slide to overwhelm my airbag I'll most likely be fu*ked anyway.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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So you only take your airbag then? the shovel, probe and transceiver are a bit pointless weight seeing as no one else in your group has one.
What if you don't get the bag open or it fails to inflate properly or gets torn up on a rock and deflates and you get buried.
I'm just not sure i follow your logic there.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I'm also usually with my old man who does carry a shovel and probe.
I hope he'd look for me 
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| under a new name wrote: |
On a slightly more serious note, having avvy kit is not much use if you don't know how to use it.
I can't see how it's practicable for the ESF (or any other school) for that matter to offer "off piste lessons" where (at least) the first significant portion is spent on basic S&R technique.
Not saying that's good, but I suspect it's a (commercial) reality. |
I'm not sure I get that. In BC at least for cat or heli then you'll spend an hour minimum on basic transceiver/ shovel / probe training. It's clearly commercially possible.
France is a closed shop though, so "commerce" is probably not the main driver.
--
Airbags? I guess that's a joke.
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You know it makes sense.
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@philwig, I get your point but with some of the French (anyway) offerings 2 hrs is booked of o.p. Skiing and I suspect the expectation is that that doesn't include an hour of safety briefing.
Must say that the terrain in the picture looks, as far as one can determine, reasonably safe, i.e. Not very steep.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Ah, short time period, I see your point with that. Stuff I'm familiar with is sold by the day minimum, so it's less of a problem.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@philwig, indeed!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I've a good friend who's a long serving ESF instructor here in Les Deux Alpes. He actually regularly admonishes mutual friends who ski off piste without gear. Only yesterday evening he was warning them to be very, very careful today and basically stay on piste.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| davidof wrote: |
| under a new name wrote: |
| @davidof, that's very interesting. Must be viewed against numbers of participants. Surely? |
Yes but no one has exact figures but one can assume that off piste skiing is much safer now than the days we dragged a bit of red string behind us when skiing. |
I'm not sure you can assume that. For sure, if you get buried and if the rest of your group are also equipped and know how to use it, your chances of survival are higher. But I reckon more are getting into trouble in the first place these days precisely because they've invested in all the kit and have a modicum of knowledge. I suspect people discussing the subject on this forum are more clued up and practised than the norm but I see guys in resorts with airbags and I just know they think that's their safety assured (we've all seen them). 30 per year in the 80s v 30 per year now (although the other year it was nearer double that in France wasn't it?) isn't progress is it?
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Just saw the original image which has been linked to now. Precisely where they are looks pretty "pisted by skiers" if it's not a piste. Perhaps part of this is the difference between what I'd call "back country" (completely uncontrolled terrain) and "in bounds off piste", which is something of a different kettle of fish although the status of it (avalanche controlled/ patrolled or not) varies between Europe and N America.
The picture then - if that's actually uncontrolled terrain (no avalanche control, no patrol), then that is *wild*. I guess the French legal system is corrupt, or they'd be facing huge litigation for the people they're going to kill.
And these people use "safety" to enforce their closed shop?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I know this is an over simplified situation but which is more responsible when instructing inexperienced clients off-piste:
a) give them all the gear and ski 30 degree slope
b) give them no gear and ski 20 degree slope
Or less of a loaded question - which do you think presents the biggest risk of death
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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@jedster, yes I get that argument.
Who among us hasn't gone off piste with no gear on terrain we know to be safe from avalanche.
My first off piste experiences were with ESF on gentle terrain such as this.
And how many kids groups do you see meandering through the trees at the side of the piste, clearly "off piste" - that was perhaps the most fun thing about ski school.
So if a first off piste lesson is in terrain such as this, and during that lesson, the safety gear requirements of a fuller off piste experience are explained, then I have no problem with that. We simply don't know the context.
The video posted by @jean claude mont blanc above, is clearly of more severe terrain, where full gear and safety training should be a necessity.
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So skiing down from Col Pers, Val d'Isere yesterday, generally good if variable conditions, evidence of avalanche activity and significant cornices. ESF Instructor skis down from a steeper pitch above us, clearly no kit on his 4 clients, no back-packs, good skiers, despite the fact they were the furry collars and helmet visors brigade. But of course they never take skiers off-piste without the appropriate equipment.
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@clarky999, +1, agree mate....if I ever turned up for a guiding day and the guide didn't have shovel/ probe/ beeps and ABS and ask the guests how to use them i'd refuse to ski with them. irrespective of whether they know the terrain or not they clearly have no regard for the safety of themselves or others...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I have skied with ESF instructors, mainly off piste in consequetive years with ClubMed. The use of transceivers, shovel/probes and instruction has increased every year. In the first year they were used only when we went on an itinary route. Everyone had them this year though only the instructor and I had airbags.
I had the gear myself though and hoped it was not me buried.
Interestingly went with my wife for a non-gnarly holiday in Mayrhofen last week. Decided to have some piste orientated private tuition to tune up my technique. Mentioned perhaps doing a little technique practice beside the piste but the instructor refused as no gear and had just dumped (and it really was safe too). Interesting differences of attitude.
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Just had a quick scoot around Tignes this morning before jumping on the bus this afternoon. Found ourselves on a similar circuit to an ESF instructor and client or possibly friend. Said instructor was so desperate to get past me on a schuss that he left himself no room at the entry to a lift and ended up snowplouging into a woman approaching from another direction. No harm done, but skis and poles tangled. A smile and an understanding nod was sufficient as we jumped on the lift.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| under a new name wrote: |
If you go diving below a certain depth (not, I guess,very deep) and get it a little wrong, you die.
If you go off piste a little (maybe quite far) and get your avalanche reading a little wrong, you probably don't even notice. |
I can confirm that if in diving you get the wrong tiny thing wrong, you can die in 2ft of water. A friend of mine fell getting into the water and trapped flat on his back he nearly did exactly that, amusingly on his way to attempt a quite complex cave dive. Luckily rescued quite some time afterwards with bruised ego and arm  The risks in anything are not always obvious, which is why we carry all that gear all the time off piste no matter what.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Our of morbid curiosity, how many folk fail to survive falling into a tree's snow-well, hitting the tree trunk enough to cause a dump of snow to fall off the branches, to then be submerged by it - as if no-one had been there... 
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The statistics for Non-Avalanche Related Snow Immersion Death (NARSID) are available - from memory in North America the risk is similar to the avalanche risk.
Personally it's been my biggest risk for many years (because I ride trees fast and take great care with avalanche risk).
The only trees you're going to kick mushrooms off are small ones and they don't harbour wells. Trees with wells are so big that they do not care how hard you hit them. People tend to pull powder in with them, then as they panic they pull in more. The only way you're going to suffocate is if you're unconscious or if you panic and pull snow into your breathing space, or if some idiot tries to rescue from above. The secret is to relax, and to make sure you're riding with a competent group.
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You know it makes sense.
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@philwig, an underappreciated risk no doubt. Thanks for helping satisfy my morbid curiosity.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I have been skiing in Serre Chevalier this week. Towards the top of the Yret lift yesterday, I observed two groups of skiers at the entrance to the Montagnole off-piste route. The group at the other side of the rope were clearly well-equipped with avy gear, but the ESF led group waiting at the other side had nothing. It may have been that their instructor was just pointing out the area, and there were other routes that probably did not need avy gear, including a black piste, but it did look like they were waiting for the other group to depart. Avalanches on the route are not uncommon.
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Poster: A snowHead
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I'm not sure if our ESF friends are running scarred of the competition following the Butler judgement, but things do seem to be a little better this season - no classes of 16 kiddies spotted. I even spotted a random act of kindness on the part of one instructor yesterday. Sadly it was not meant to last. One instructor with 11 (eleven) pupils off piste with no kit. Ok the avalanche risk is low, but there had been some small slides on the same aspect and altitude. Professionalism is more than just taking money off folk.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Ski lots wrote: |
| I'm not sure if our ESF friends are running scarred of the competition following the Butler judgement |
Not heard it mentioned by any ESF instructors.
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