 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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It is not very serious for professional groups but the avalanche risk was principally spring snow slides which if you were to be buried you have little hope of surviving and risk 2 that day from my notes. People were spring skiing off piste without any problems years before avalanche beacons were even thought of. That said, no CAF or FFME group would be skiing off piste without everyone having the necessary rescue gear.
but if you think that this should go further contact the Procureur de la Republic at Albertville, here is a form letter
https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/R11469
Tribunal de Grande Instance d’ALBERTVILLE
Mr le Procureur de la République
5, Avenue des Chasseurs Alpins
7320O
ALBERTVILLE
the ESF were on notice following a number of incidents.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Aren't more avalanched on a risk 2 day than any other?
But I agree, skied heaps off piste in Verbier and Chamonix in the early 80s and nobody carried any gear, not even probe and shovel - that was ski patrol stuff! I'd love to know what the % fatality rate is now compared to then if there is such a stat available. I know many more are accessing the off piste these days but feels to me that the incident rate has worsened.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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From memory, it was 2 in the morning and switched to 3 about when this was taken.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Thanks @davidof, might try that.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| perrys wrote: |
| From memory, it was 2 in the morning and switched to 3 about when this was taken. |
You were there so had an appreciation of the circumstances. In any case I'm surprised at a professional group not carrying some gear given the ESF were supposed to be taking off piste more seriously.
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So assuming it was 100% safe, I still have a problem with this - because ESF are teaching. They're teaching people that there's no need for safety equipment off-piste.
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I understood Level3 to be the one with the most fatalities as everyone thinks "Ooh 4 (or 5) really dangerous!" and when it drops to 3 think "woohoo it's safe again!"
A case in point: I was on a tour op bus and the rep announced over the mic "The avalanche risk is down to 3 so the off piste is great."
There certainly appears, in my experience, a fairly prevalent attitude in the ESF that, "I've been skiing for xx years: if those things were necessary, I wouldn't be here." They look down their noses at "zis stupeed foreener who spends 'is money on ze arva for 'is 'olidays". Then U see the row of 100 people with probes looking for that poor trainee instructor in Tignes who would be alive today if she had a beep on and you think, "Yeah mate, I'll just keep putting my beep on in the mornings, thanks!"
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@admin, ++ 1
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*without diverting from the thread subject*
Ha, for some reason I thought you might be on here Simon. It's Russ from ESF Events, how's Tignes treating you?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| porkpiefox wrote: |
*without diverting from the thread subject*
Ha, for some reason I thought you might be on here Simon. It's Russ from ESF Events, how's Tignes treating you? |
I should point out, my ESF isn't the ESF that Simon is talking about. We just happen to have the same initials as a company 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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You know it makes sense.
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dammit... i was up for that one too!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I can only offer football and rugby tours, not unsafe off piste tours 
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Poster: A snowHead
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what about helmets? ....duck!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Like this?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@admin, I canardly suppress a big smile.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@admin, that'll help save you from a mallardy
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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They are lax on safety IMO. Last January out of a group of 8 only 4 had shovels and probes. It would have been 2/8 if me and my Dad didn't have our own.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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@geepee, lol 
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@admin, You Quack me up
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Eider thought you could have come up with better than that.
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Hi Russ, nice to hear from you. Living in Tignes is fanstastic thanks - though I've spent about half the season so far with two injuries - one that prevents me from skiing and another that prevents me from rock climbing. Hope ESF Events is going well!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| perrys wrote: |
| Hi Russ, nice to hear from you. Living in Tignes is fanstastic thanks - though I've spent about half the season so far with two injuries - one that prevents me from skiing and another that prevents me from rock climbing. Hope ESF Events is going well! |
Sounds good (apart from the injuries). Yeah all going very well again, think we're going to smash it again is year. Just counting down the days until I get to the Alps, but only managing 2 trips this year as I've got a lot on (guess I shouldn't complain too much).
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Are you heading to Tignes/Val?
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On a slightly more serious note, having avvy kit is not much use if you don't know how to use it.
I can't see how it's practicable for the ESF (or any other school) for that matter to offer "off piste lessons" where (at least) the first significant portion is spent on basic S&R technique.
Not saying that's good, but I suspect it's a (commercial) reality.
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You know it makes sense.
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Agreed - especially seeing as the one person who probably knows how to use it will be at the bottom of the slope and probably doesn't have skins to get back to his party.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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| perrys wrote: |
| Are you heading to Tignes/Val? |
Sadly not, or I'd have given you a shout. I'm heading to Samoens and then Avoriaz. I'm still trying to squeeze one more trip in, but the early Easter holidays are making that difficult for me this year.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I can not see a link in OP. Has it been deleted/edited?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| under a new name wrote: |
On a slightly more serious note, having avvy kit is not much use if you don't know how to use it.
I can't see how it's practicable for the ESF (or any other school) for that matter to offer "off piste lessons" where (at least) the first significant portion is spent on basic S&R technique.
Not saying that's good, but I suspect it's a (commercial) reality. |
I know the Arlberg Ski School give out avi kit for all their offpiste lessons (instructors can also borrow it on their day off they have so much of it). I'm sure they only do fairly short briefings for most clients given time restrictions (like most mountain guides), but even if the clients can't find the instructor, he should be able to to find them. And if he's buried with them, at least mountain rescue can find them quicker rather than having to fetch all the manpower for a huge probe line. Also instills it in the clients minds that they need it for future offpiste trips too.
Gotta say I think it's totally unprofessional and probably negligent from the ESF, but is something I see a lot of in older local (in many places) instructors who seem to think they know the terrain too well to fall into the trap, forgetting that that is a (heuristic) trap itself.
OP, I'd for sure complain! They have a diploma to teach skiing, they don't have the same level of education as guides, and I doubt there's a guide anywhere in the world who'll take clients offpiste without at least a transceiver.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Pruman wrote: |
Aren't more avalanched on a risk 2 day than any other?
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Not in France, by the time the risk drops to 2 the slopes are completely skied out!
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Fri 8-01-16 19:48; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
Not in France, but the time the risk drops to 2 the slopes are completely skied out!
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+1
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Just to be devil's advocate: anyone have any idea what the risk of being caught in an avalanche/ killed when skiing off-piste with ESF? How does it compare with skiing off piste with a guide?
My observations would suggest ESF have a remarkable safety record given the colossal numbers who ski off with them every week of the winter.
It is also not so black and white as people think. ESF take 6 year olds off side of piste without transceivers. But those kids are probably safer off the piste with their instructor than on the piste! The distinction between side of piste - between piste - backcountry in terms of risk is not always clear cut and occasional skiers need to beware, but ESF instructors will generally know the resort, where is safe as houses, and the dangerspots on a given day like the back of their hands. Another point is that in large resort like EK, if alarm does go off, every instructor on mountain (excepting those with children) will drop everything and come to aid in search and rescue
Finally careful generalizing ESF. Different esf's in different resorts are very different. Some of them will be very particular about the gear (e.g. Arc 1800). Last time I did ESF4 in Tignes they were a bit more gung-ho. But we did have transceivers and instructor had shovel/ probe. You can't assume from above picture that they had no transceivers and/or person taking photos didn't have backpack
NOT condoning not having avi gear off piste and I make personal choice to ski with schools/ guided which supply same. But I think in fairness tone of this thread is overgeneralizing and sanctimonious
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@peanuthead,
To be honest I think the sentiment in this thread isn't so much that they are going off-piste without equipment is more the example and lessons that are being taught. Yes, years ago I used to frequently do it without any equipment but now I've been educated and wouldn't think of doing it at all. In fact I have a transceiver on me frequently just so I'm not put in the position of having to make a decision if plans change. I think it's incumbent on them to make sure people understand just exactly what the risks are and why having the appropriate gear is so important; and that starts from them having it themselves (and demonstrating as such).
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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While their local knowledge is excellent there is still risk. When skiing off-piste last year in Andorra with a locally born instructor(a rare thing there apparently as most Andorrans are too wealthy to need to instruct) he spent the first morning doing practice runs searching for buried bags in a safe area between 2 slopes before we went anywhere near the proper off-piste.
I go with ESF simply because it offers cheap guiding an take it upon myself to have the proper kit, but I do think they encourage the wrong attitudes.
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| Quote: |
I can't see how it's practicable for the ESF (or any other school) for that matter to offer "off piste lessons" where (at least) the first significant portion is spent on basic S&R technique.
Not saying that's good, but I suspect it's a (commercial) reality.
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Whilst people are not going to want to spend a sigificant chunk of every off-piste lesson learning S&R technique, some would surely want to be confident that other people in the group would have a basic competency if it came to a search.
Has anyone ever tried to come up with a basic qualification that those taking off-piste lessons would be required to show (a sort of off-piste PADI) before a lesson could be booked?
The ski schools should be in favour because, apart from the benefit to their instructors if they were to be the ones buried, they could make money from running the course.
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FAQ
