 Poster: A snowHead
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Fellow SHers, I have a bit of a carving ski question for you.
I broke one of my trusty Whitedot Ones up in Avoriaz, last weekend. Having got to the bottom of the mountain, I rented a pair of brand new carving skis for the afternoon, as conditions were a bit swept – new snow had been thoroughly tracked out and swept off a rock hard base.
These were an intermediate piste carver called the Rossignol Pursuit 300. And frankly, they were a revelation. Extraordinarily easy to ski, excellent edge hold, and very nimble. Not in any way challenging, and a joy in hard bumps and on bulletproof piste. And frankly plenty of speed and acceleration required for piste skiing – I was going comfoirtably faster than most people (space/conditions allowing), and had no issues with high speed stability on any surface. They were fun - but not exactly a challenge. Which of course is no bad thing at all - and in fact on a crowded piste, something that gives you performance as well as control is arguably way more suitable than something that needs you to be 100% perfect all the time, else risk a bad spill.
Now, my all-mountain Whitedots will be replaced, and I increasingly think of being uncompromising. My WD Preachers will remain my planks for any days with decent snow/slush. For piste, I no longer want to compromise with an all mountain design - I would like something that carves like a razor on anything but polished blue ice. I know that people swear by mid-fat all mountain skis these days, but I'd like something designed for carved turns of all lengths as its primary goal. Obviously it needs to be skiddable too, as the piste requires steered turns, and I like moguls.
I promptly started looking for a pair of these Rossignols online, and have found them for £208 including bindings. Which is, frankly, great.
But then I started thinking about consumer-orientated race skis and have managed to find (unbelievably) a pair of Rossignol Hero Elites (Long Turn or Short Turn variety), with bindings, delivered to the UK for £250.
Now, I have demoed plenty of race skis, and frankly the one I liked best was probably the most piste orientated – the Salomon X-Race in a 170, which I found to be fun, as well as very capable. However, I got on perfectly well with a Fischer RC4 SC (in super short 155cm length!) and Volkl Racetiger GS (170) ski as well. Which shows that exact orientation and length of ski does not really worry me too much (I took the Fischer off-piste for a laugh. That was eye-opening)
Does anyone use one of these sorts of consumer orientated race skis as their daily piste equipment? I don’t really have the opportunity to sample the Heros, and this offer lasts but a few days from now.
I suppose at that price, I could just flog them on if I don’t get on with them. Was thinking of the Long Turn GS variant, simply because it’s meant to be a bit more chilled out than the very snappy Short Turn SL version. And I’ll buy a shorter length as ultimate speed isn’t the main interest – I want to be able to use the ski in moguls when the occasion demands as well. The X-Race dis all of these things wuite well, due to a softer tail than a proper race ski – the Hero LT is similarly built, I believe.
Thoughts? Or are all of these types of ski just too focussed for piste skiing away from the slalom gates?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
are all of these types of ski just too focussed for piste skiing away from the slalom gates?
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Not in the slightest.
My daily drivers for a few years were Rossi 9X Oversize - more or less the Long Turn Hero. I'm 5'6" and 60kgs and skied them happily in a 160cm (I had a previous, not as shaped pair at 165cm which I even took heliskiing. Somewhat more tiring than what everyone else was on but quite capable in the endless powder).
Until they expired last year if I know I was going to be on piste I had a pair of full on FIS SLs (165cms). A total hoot but I find my 181 FIS GSs a little more all round e.g. in bumps.
So either long or short turn versions would be fine. In a short length I'd probably opt for the LTs.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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None of the skis that you list are designed for skiing gates, they are just performance piste skis, any of them should be good for what you want.
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If I was in the market for a piste / hard snow ski I'd look at something exactly like the LT I think. If the off-piste conditions were appealing I'd be on something else so why compromise with your piste ski? To be honest I'd probably want to test a proper FIS GS too.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Piste skis for on piste.
Have the punter Atomic SL Redster things.
Lots of fun, and they can turn a lot quicker than me.
Also loved the Atomic punter GS predecessor, the Salomon punter GS, and Ronald's Stöckli SL FIS (which I tried to buy the non-FIS version of, but thought €300 for the Atomics was more sensible than a 4-figure sum).
SL worked in powder knee deep on piste rather well. GS in bumps were a right handful.
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@Harry Flashman, I haven't tried them but I seem to remember when they first came out last season, the Ti (Titanium) versions of the Elite ST and LT got very good reviews and the non Ti ones, er, didn't. So check which version is on offer. Also, the LT Ti is meant to be much less demanding so would be a better choice of daily driver. When I look around the slopes, the non-Ti versions seem to have rental stickers on them and the Ti ones are on the feet of local skiers which probably sums it up.
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Thanks chaps - and this next question will show that my technical knowledge of skis is not great.
The long turn radius of something like an LT Hero is akin to my Whitedot Preacher i.e. long turns.
I like doing short, carved turns as well as long turns. I assume that the turn radius of a ski is just the default measurement of the sidecut? Obviously a Preacher will carve long turns happily, but is not so great at being forced into short turns, even when angulating at (for me) extreme angles, without skidding (due to a 112mm waist and construction aimed for powder). I assume a GS ski like the Hero LT can (due to narrow waist etc) be made to do nice short carved turns if skied correctly? I'd go for the shortest length - the 162 - for bumps skiing.
Basically, I love the idea of an SL ski, but would prefer something a bit more versatile - and the key here is short turns, bumps, but also being relatively relaxed for pottering on when not doing lightspeed...
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Tue 5-01-16 12:54; edited 1 time in total
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| Raceplate wrote: |
| @Harry Flashman, I haven't tried them but I seem to remember when they first came out last season, the Ti (Titanium) versions of the Elite ST and LT got very good reviews and the non Ti ones, er, didn't. So check which version is on offer. Also, the LT Ti is meant to be much less demanding so would be a better choice of daily driver. When I look around the slopes, the non-Ti versions seem to have rental stickers on them and the Ti ones are on the feet of local skiers which probably sums it up. |
Thanks - the Tis are on offer too - £30 more, so not the end of the worls.
But they are heavy sods, which makes transporting them on airplanes a pain (when travelling with a pair of powder skis as well)...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I use punter race skis, old Atomics in my case which are stiff and heavy. I don't really do proper off-piste so I use them for everything, hard, soft, side piste, whatever, for crud they go through rather than over but cope fine, bumps are harder work but that is my technique (no fan of moguls!!). For everyday use the versions with an intermediate radius rather than strict GS or SL versions are the most flexible, they are as stable at speed as a GS (unless your name is Hirscher) but a bit more turny when you want. I haven't skied the hero elite LT, but the stats are very similar to mine, fair bit lighter so may well be a little bit softer and better in the bumps.
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I love my Rossy Experience 84's - light, easy to relax on but also great in short-turns/bumps/chop/hardpack . . .they're classed as 'all mountain' but they're more piste 'all rounders' IMHO . . .if you're looking for something a bit more race orientated then how about Head Supershape Titans? . . .demoed these last year and they felt much more like a slalom ski in the shorts turns (they catapulted you out of the turn) but also rock solid at speed. . .decided I wasn't fit enough to own a pair and do them justice!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@Harry Flashman, I think for what you want on further examination would suit more the STs.
My FIS SLs were trickier in bumps because they had almost too much grip, so smearing off speed required a little more finesse.
The consumer skis won't have such extreme edge grip (although they'll be plenty grippy enough) and the SLs would be just that little bit nimbler. You can always do bigger radius turns.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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My favourite piste skis are either my Storm Inferno Race slalom or Crossfire, GS/skicross skis, the Crossfire is a FIS spec ski the Inferno punter race, both cracking good fun and most at home on hard packed pistes.
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| Quote: |
You can always do bigger radius turns.
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But not pure carved. The design radius is the MAXIMUM pure carved turn you can make (obviously go shorter by bending the ski into reverse camber).
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You know it makes sense.
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I regularly ski on my Fischer RC4 SL skis. They are fantastic on piste. The only time I don't take them out is when I'm skiing with my 6yr old daughter, as they need commitment to do them justice. I strap on a pair of Rossi Scratch twin tips when I ski with her.
The Fischers are pretty heavy though so can tire the legs when it's a little choppy.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| rjs wrote: |
| None of the skis that you list are designed for skiing gates, they are just performance piste skis, any of them should be good for what you want. |
+1, if you get > 74mm they are surprisingly good off piste unless it's very deep! I skied the Head Titan for few years and recently swopped to a longer and stiffer Völkl Code Speedwall L which I really enjoyed last year.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@jedster, haven't we had this argument before?
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not with me - someone else 
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cos you can ski in an almost straight line with the ski on its full edge
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no you can't - with a ski on edge it bends so that the narrower waist touches the snow creating an arc. If you put a 13m radius ski on edge then look back at your edge tracks they will NEVER look straight, they will be pronounced arcs.
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The sidecut radius relationship with max turn carve doesn't account for torsion or camber (or snow grip).
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torsion - not sure what you mean but I guess torsion tends to mean that a small part of the deflection caused by weighting a the ski set on edge is "given away" in twisting the ski. I think that's probably right - practical "natural" radii may be a bit longer than stated
camber - that tightens the arc rather than lengthens it?
snow grip? Do you mean 3d effect on soft snow whereby the edge can deflect than against a theoretical hard surface? If so, that effect tightens the arc rather than lengthens it?
Personally I would find a 13m radius ski a little too turny on edge than I would really like on piste. I find 18m a good compromise for carving around on piste. Mid 20s and I don't have room to carve as much as I would like (have to use more pivoting than I would prefer). Which makes me realise that full fat FIS GS skis are not for me - the new minimum length is 190cm with 35m radii....
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| kitenski wrote: |
| rjs wrote: |
| None of the skis that you list are designed for skiing gates, they are just performance piste skis, any of them should be good for what you want. |
+1, if you get > 74mm they are surprisingly good off piste unless it's very deep! I skied the Head Titan for few years and recently swopped to a longer and stiffer Völkl Code Speedwall L which I really enjoyed last year. |
I have Volkl Code Speedwall S UVOs which are 122/74/104 which are a bit more manoeuvrable than the UVO L's and have staggering grip. They are torsionally very stiff and carve superbly at silly angles, even on ice where you do have to have the balls to believe they'll grip and put them on an edge, then they do. But you can smear them around when necessary.
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Tue 5-01-16 18:52; edited 2 times in total
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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The LT Ti is a nice piste ski that will do off piste in a pinch. picking the correct length is important I ski on the Hero Master 23 Rad for GS skiing and older 9GS Ti which is roughly the same ski for all round duties and love em. The LT is 69mm underfoot IIRC which is a touch narrower and softer than the GS cheater skis.
Careful what binding they try to sell you. Rossi do some pretty shite low end binding combos on these skis I am not a fan of their TPX binders have some for sale 
The WC plate binders are much better imv.
The Volkl's are great skis as well, probably better all rounders with the extra waist width
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| jedster wrote: |
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cos you can ski in an almost straight line with the ski on its full edge
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no you can't - with a ski on edge it bends so that the narrower waist touches the snow creating an arc. If you put a 13m radius ski on edge then look back at your edge tracks they will NEVER look straight, they will be pronounced arcs |
I get a bit confused on this point, and I try not to think about the physics of it. But my day to day experience is that on gentle slopes, cat tracks for example, I can roll my r=13.5m skis so the edges just engage and they follow a clean carve along an an arc which seems to have a significantly bigger radius than 13.5m. I'm not aware of fudging that carved arc shaped path, just balancing on the edges of both skis and travelling slowly enough that almost no 'G' forces are being developed.
However, it's a bit of an academic discussion that I don't have much interest it. From a real life situation it's enough for me to know that a smaller r=XXm figure makes tighter turns, and trying to carve clean turns on anything steeper than a gentle blue on skis with r=>23m scares the bejesus out of me 
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@jedster, tee hee
That's why I said "almost". I must confess, @rob@rar, as a lapsed physicist I too find this hard to get my head around as I keep thinking I'm going to run into a discontinuity. (A bit like a fly hitting the windscreen of a car on the motorway, if you know what I mean).
The reasons I think you don't is...
As you put the ski on a tiny little bit of edge with a tiny little bit of pressure, the ski underfoot rotates longitudinally but the tips and tails don't. Jedster - that's what I mean by torsion. I THINK I can imagine a geometry where the edge actually remains straight. So you get a continuous function of carve vs pressure and edge angle. Giving two variables you can play with which makes it all fun. But this all sets my hair on fire. Anyway so as @rob@rar, says, you can get a much bigger arc than r=13.5. I don't think I can even put into words the effect of having the ski itself bending.
Plus, usually the snow is a quasi-fluid surface so you don't get perfect grip all along the ski (I did - once - and it sticks in my head, carve as near as dammit perfect arcs on a sheet of blue ice with old straight 203s, just to see if I could) so the tips and tails that aren't gripping as hard - as they aren't as edged - slip.
Then again, what's a perfect carve? I spend most of my time spoofing it (skarving). Most people can't tell and as I was reminded at the weekend, it's all about how you look to someone viewing from the chairlift. 
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After running FIS GS skis as daily's I moved to Kastle MX88's, I tried other things like the Head titan and magnum and various SL skis as well. In the end the 90% of the GS ski and the ability to deal with less than ideal conditions and some powder the Kaslte's mean I will never daily a race ski again.
I still have some race boards for when its 100% piste or ice sheets as they are better in that regard, but on 10% or so better. A bit of tip rocker, and some more width and a slightly softer flex are what make a nice daily.
Also they are one of the few that you can buy sans system bindings, I have a hatred of system bindings as they never hold you the same way as a decent binding on a flat deck.
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| under a new name wrote: |
As you put the ski on a tiny little bit of edge with a tiny little bit of pressure, the ski underfoot rotates longitudinally but the tips and tails don't. Jedster - that's what I mean by torsion. I THINK I can imagine a geometry where the edge actually remains straight. So you get a continuous function of carve vs pressure and edge angle. Giving two variables you can play with which makes it all fun ... Anyway so as @rob@rar, says, you can get a much bigger arc than r=13.5. I don't think I can even put into words the effect of having the ski itself bending.
Plus, usually the snow is a quasi-fluid surface so you don't get perfect grip all along the ski (I did - once - and it sticks in my head, carve as near as dammit perfect arcs on a sheet of blue ice with old straight 203s, just to see if I could) so the tips and tails that aren't gripping as hard - as they aren't as edged - slip. |
| under a new name wrote: |
| But this all sets my hair on fire |
You got away lucky. Reading that my head just exploded.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I have some Atomic slalom skis. They are ok in moguls but not so great in powder as they are very stiff. It is a bit hard to get into a flow with them as you are never quite comfortable.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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As mentioned above I would have thought that Head Magnums or Titans would be a good option.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I grew up skiing everything on SL skis, powder included, as did most people I knew. Have gone wider in last few years, and have Whitedot Preachers, Scott The Ski etc, (it's a very good all rounder). My wife took charge of packing skis for a recent trip, and put Stockli Laser SLs in the bag by mistake.
Skiing with kids (good skiers) on piste, bumps etc and it was a big reminder to me that wide skis can't touch a proper SL for agility. Back on Scotts today and just much lazier, even though I thought they were great last year!
I also made my son ski his race SLs off piste all of last year, and he can blast down powder in them, much as we used to in the distant past. Fat skis clearly better for this, but not for nearly everything else, IMO.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@footsoldier, aye!!
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Poster: A snowHead
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@footsoldier, I was skiing some rather nice powder on my 203 SGs not so very long ago.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
As you put the ski on a tiny little bit of edge with a tiny little bit of pressure, the ski underfoot rotates longitudinally but the tips and tails don't. Jedster - that's what I mean by torsion.
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yes - I see that. And it actually fits Rob's observation about cat tracks etc which I share. Fair enough. It's not really a proper carved turn though is it? I do take your point though. Have to say, when I'm on-piste, unless there are bumps to play with I'm always trying to carve as much as possible - it just seems more of a challenge and I find the sensations more satisfying. I think that's why I like something around 18m radii - you can carve a lot at a speed which is exciting without being terrifying (agree with Rob here about 25m radii!).
Obviously if you are trying to link short carved turns on 18m radii you have to steer a bit at transition to set up the next turn. Incidentally Ron Le Master calls it "using the virtual mogul" which I think is an inspired description. Skiing with my 13 year old at New Year he asked me "Dad, when you are trying to carve short turns do you find yourself being sort of bounced up at the end of the turn?" - just what Le Master means. Good lad
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@jedster, 
On the being bounced out at the end, my old SLs - if being active enough on them - would get me airborne. Marvellous.
I think it is proper carving though the super gentle turn thing.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
@footsoldier, I was skiing some rather nice powder on my 203 SGs not so very long ago
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nice powder up to shin depth you can ski on pretty much anything can't you?
My kids have just grown out of their Redster SL junior FIS skis which we got second hand from Ski Bartlett. They were awesome for developing skills on piste and they skied them quite happily off piste too. Les Contamines is really an off piste playground once you get to a certain standard and their instructor is always taking them off piste too so we've gone for something more all mountain this time.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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nice powder up to shin depth you can ski on pretty much anything can't you?
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Yep
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Update! Spent the two days in a variety of race skis, including FIS spec planks. Piste conditions started perfect, ended slushy at the bottom. Plenty of end of day moguls to play with.
I have answered my own questions - these skis make a perfect daily driver, and my preference is definitely for SL over GS. Less able to cruise, but so responsive and versatile on piste.
And the stars of the show were the Head Wordcup Rebel i.SL in 160cm flavour. Stupidly manoeuvrable, stable at speed, utterly capable in bumps, loose frozen surface, slush and bulletproof hardpack. You can lay these over so far that your knee is up by your chest, and next flip into a series of snappy fast turns without even thinking. The Rossi Hero ST was great too, but the stiffer Head is just more aggressive and more fun. And it can potter, too, And will slide just fine if asked.
Weaknesses:
1. those tails are super-energetic. Get backseat coming out of a turn and they punish you very, very quickly - so no laziness when pressing on. But slow down and stop pressuring the edges, and the are lovely and forgiving.
2. Do not like going in a straight line: fidgety and grabby. The GS skis were at better than SLs in any case, but the Rebels were particularly skittish when not on edge.
3. Off piste. Er, no. Not having it at all.
Despite these issues, they made a Volkl Racetiger GS, Blizzard FIS SL, Nordica Dobermann GS Fischer RC4 SL and Salomon X-Race feel one dimensional, to me. But every skier is different. Head's own FIS Rebel RD is also fantastic and actually my second favourite, but not as versatile as the i.SL. It hates bumps, and I love them!
Next daily driver has been found. What a ski!
P.S. Top tip. The test centre at Silvretta gondola (top), are great. Technically on a non-test day, they won't swap skis for you. Charm the attendants (who really know their skis and skiing), slip one a fiver, and he'll swap for you as much as you like. And they have some nice kit in there...
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Tue 2-02-16 17:39; edited 2 times in total
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| Sideshow_Bob wrote: |
Back on topic, just back from a week piste-bashing in AdH. Wife hired a pair of Atomic SX and found them a revelation compared with her usual off-piste oriented skis (Volkl Auras or Dynastar Sultan 94s). I was back on my SL Labs most of the week too, took Mantras just in case it snowed and spent the rest of the week wishing I'd packed my GS Labs instead. Horses for courses. |
Its why I still pack my race boards for the easy season, when the pistes are nice and solid nothing matches them for excitement, the Kasltes (MX88) do 90% of the job and work far better in moguls, mank, slush and less than six inches of powder. My preference after trying a lot of FIS stuff is for the older style laides 183cm's or the Masters spec 186, touch softer for bumps which is nice.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Sideshow_Bob wrote: |
| found them a revelation compared with her usual off-piste oriented skis (Volkl Auras or Dynastar Sultan 94s). I was back on my SL Labs most of the week too, took Mantras just in case it snowed and spent the rest of the week wishing I'd packed my GS Labs instead. Horses for courses. |
Welcome to the old skool skinny skis club
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@Harry Flashman, that's Head's consumer SL ski right? Sounds about right.
My thoughts on your FIS ski experience a. they are sort of designed to be one dimensional - i.e. be driven as fast as possible down a type of race course and b. (I have never seen you ski but from reading about your experience so far) they really need to be driven with good to immaculate technique to exploit them properly.
Coincidentally I had a pair of HEAD i.GS - the consumer GS ski - out for a morning week before last and compared to my own Volkl FIS GS they were (unsurprisingly) somewhat under powered and soft. A nice ski but I wouldn't want to own a pair.
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FAQ
) I quite fancy something with plenty of bite 