 Poster: A snowHead
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I do agree, but surely helmets and carvers have led to people thinking they can ski better than they can, and therefore duck a few much needed lessons in favour of learning as they go!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Modern skis allow idiots to ski fast before they are ready to do so, and the world is more full of selfish idiots than it was 30 years ago.
Also, there is a woeful lack of 'policing' on the pistes these days, at least in Europe. In the good old days in France people would at least be told off by ESF instructors for skiing dangerously.
Having said that, we all make mistakes and I can think of two occasions when I have skied dangerously close to people at speed due to my own poor judgement.
gazzaredcruiser is right too (about those of us who are past middle age) and so are those who talk about people not taking lessons. How can anyone ever be so expert that there is nothing left to learn?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
but surely helmets and carvers have led to people thinking they can ski better than they can, and therefore duck a few much needed lessons in favour of learning as they go!
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Not sure that true. I can confirm that I skipped lessons and thought I was a better skier than I was way before getting a helmet or carvers 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Walter-Spitty wrote: |
| Modern skis allow idiots to ski fast before they are ready to do so, |
Old fashioned skis also allow idiots to ski fast before they are ready to do so. All you need is gravity and an lack of respect for those people you are sharing the slopes with. I don't think we can "blame" the kit, whether that be skis or protective gear. It's about attitudes. I think the resorts can help change attitudes by using ski patrols (and instructors if that were deemed appropriate) to give advice, cautioning against irresponsible skiing and in the most egregious cases of recklessness withdrawing liftpasses. Resorts can also be proactive with safety measures such as speed barriers (for example, there's a good system for avoiding collisions in Les Arcs at a notorious intersection of two pistes), and providing and enforcing tranquil zones for novice skiers.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| nelly0168 wrote: |
| SnoodyMcFlude wrote: |
| Can I reduce the effect of the risk too? Yes, by wearing a helmet. Seems like a no brainer to me. |
While it might seem like a "no brainer" to you, it is frankly not borne out by any statistical analysis - any more so than it is for cycling.
As I said earlier in the thread - I don't wear one, entirely my choice.
My mates from the UK all wear helmets skiing and boarding - however none of our friends who live in the Alps ever wear one (including those who work as pisteurs) even when off piste.
I don't know what that tells you, except everyone has free will.
It is incredibly unhelpful to come on here and spout pseudo-science or opinion dressed up as fact - with nothing to back up your argument. |
I've posted on a few helmet threads on this forum. Here are the facts (and I've studied many reports)
Wearing a helmet significantly reduces your chances of receiving a severe head injury when skiing. You are , statistically, far less likley to be seriously injured if you are wearing a helmet.
This is not suprising.
Anyone who thinks that wearing a helmet does not reduce risk of serious injury when skiing is either (a) stupid or (b) argumentative. We had a similar bunch of similar people when seatbelts were made compulsary in cars. Anybody who states there is no statistical evidence to suggest helmets reduce injuries when skiing are spouting nonesense and have not searched hard for, or read many reports. There are many, particulalrly in North America.
I don't always wear one - I like the wind in my hair. It's a personal choice. I know I am more at risk when not wearing my helmet.
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@rob@rar - good point about old fashioned skis and 'idiotism'.
When I took lessons as a youngster in the 80's, the French instructors educated us about safety, skiing etiquette and respect, as did our school teachers. Do they still do that?
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| nelly0168 wrote: |
| It is incredibly unhelpful to come on here and spout pseudo-science or opinion dressed up as fact - with nothing to back up your argument. |
I fell over not wearing a helmet, it hurt. I fell over many times while wearing a helmet, it didn't hurt. That's enough 'pseudo-science' to convince me. I'm not out to convince anyone to wear a helmet, it's a choice thing, but I simply can't understand why some people seem to have an issue with them and talk about the supposed negative side of them.
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| Quote: |
Anybody who states there is no statistical evidence to suggest helmets reduce injuries when skiing are spouting nonesense and have not searched hard for, or read many reports. There are many, particulalrly in North America.
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Hmm depends what you mean statistical evidence to suggest is an awful lot less than hard evidence of a reduction.
I can't claim to have read all the reports but many that I have seen appear very weak with bogus meaningless endpoints to generate something statistically meaningful.
Probably reflecting the rarity of serious brain injury when skiing rather than because helmets don't protect in the rare cases when significant bumps to the head happen, which I suspect they do.
I wear a helmet but is largely because of herd behaviour, wearing it to work in the car would almost certainly be more likely to be beneficial.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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The over 70s I ski with often remark that we will all be forced to wear ski helmets by insurance companies at some point in the not-so-distant future.
I wear one; it keeps my ever increasing bald patch nice and warm 
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| Walter-Spitty wrote: |
| When I took lessons as a youngster in the 80's, the French instructors educated us about safety, skiing etiquette and respect, as did our school teachers. Do they still do that? |
I guess so. "Don't ski too fast and crash in to people" is not a complex lesson, and I'm sure that instructors will talk about that and reinforce that message in their skiing. But what instructors can't do is ensure that the people they teach are respectful of other slope users. They can talk about it all they want, but if someone wants to ski fast, to push themselves beyond their capability and to not give a f**k about anyone else it really doesn't matter what goes on in ski lessons.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Which European resorts employ people to patrol the pistes and give them the authority to suspend ski passes or impose some other kind of penalty?
When my dad was a young man he once had his ski pass snipped off from around his neck, by an Austrian official I think.
I just read a BBC news story from 2003 that says: "The Swiss resort of Zermatt has given lift attendants and ski patrollers the authority to confiscate people's passes if they ski out of control. While Cervinia in Italy has a number of policemen on the slopes to stop skiers going too fast and will arrest them if they think they are endangering safety."
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| cameronphillips2000 wrote: |
| nelly0168 wrote: |
| SnoodyMcFlude wrote: |
| Can I reduce the effect of the risk too? Yes, by wearing a helmet. Seems like a no brainer to me. |
While it might seem like a "no brainer" to you, it is frankly not borne out by any statistical analysis - any more so than it is for cycling.
As I said earlier in the thread - I don't wear one, entirely my choice.
My mates from the UK all wear helmets skiing and boarding - however none of our friends who live in the Alps ever wear one (including those who work as pisteurs) even when off piste.
I don't know what that tells you, except everyone has free will.
It is incredibly unhelpful to come on here and spout pseudo-science or opinion dressed up as fact - with nothing to back up your argument. |
I've posted on a few helmet threads on this forum. Here are the facts (and I've studied many reports)
Wearing a helmet significantly reduces your chances of receiving a severe head injury when skiing. You are , statistically, far less likley to be seriously injured if you are wearing a helmet.
This is not suprising.
Anyone who thinks that wearing a helmet does not reduce risk of serious injury when skiing is either (a) stupid or (b) argumentative. We had a similar bunch of similar people when seatbelts were made compulsary in cars. Anybody who states there is no statistical evidence to suggest helmets reduce injuries when skiing are spouting nonesense and have not searched hard for, or read many reports. There are many, particulalrly in North America.
I don't always wear one - I like the wind in my hair. It's a personal choice. I know I am more at risk when not wearing my helmet. |
Passive / Aggressive argument, no?
Please feel free to post the "evidence", I look forward to reading it.
p.s. if it is so irrefutable, why don't the pisteurs wear them? After all, they ski more often and faster to incidents than either of us............. 
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You know it makes sense.
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| nelly0168 wrote: |
| cameronphillips2000 wrote: |
| nelly0168 wrote: |
| SnoodyMcFlude wrote: |
| Can I reduce the effect of the risk too? Yes, by wearing a helmet. Seems like a no brainer to me. |
While it might seem like a "no brainer" to you, it is frankly not borne out by any statistical analysis - any more so than it is for cycling.
As I said earlier in the thread - I don't wear one, entirely my choice.
My mates from the UK all wear helmets skiing and boarding - however none of our friends who live in the Alps ever wear one (including those who work as pisteurs) even when off piste.
I don't know what that tells you, except everyone has free will.
It is incredibly unhelpful to come on here and spout pseudo-science or opinion dressed up as fact - with nothing to back up your argument. |
I've posted on a few helmet threads on this forum. Here are the facts (and I've studied many reports)
Wearing a helmet significantly reduces your chances of receiving a severe head injury when skiing. You are , statistically, far less likley to be seriously injured if you are wearing a helmet.
This is not suprising.
Anyone who thinks that wearing a helmet does not reduce risk of serious injury when skiing is either (a) stupid or (b) argumentative. We had a similar bunch of similar people when seatbelts were made compulsary in cars. Anybody who states there is no statistical evidence to suggest helmets reduce injuries when skiing are spouting nonesense and have not searched hard for, or read many reports. There are many, particulalrly in North America.
I don't always wear one - I like the wind in my hair. It's a personal choice. I know I am more at risk when not wearing my helmet. |
Passive / Aggressive argument, no?
Please feel free to post the "evidence", I look forward to reading it.
p.s. if it is so irrefutable, why don't the pisteurs wear them? After all, they ski more often and faster to incidents than either of us............. |
Search the threads for helmet use. I can't really be bothered to dig it all out again. I posted links at the time.
To be honest, it's a no brainer. As a physicist, I'm trained to look at and draw conclusions from evidence from a variety of sources. Which I spent conderabe time doing. It was unquestionable.
It was always going to be. Placing the skull in an imact absorbing shell is always going to decrease stoping time and, therefore, decrease the forces and rapid deccleratrions that cause injury.
To be honest, I'm tired of arguing the point. I think anyone who undesrtands the most basic of Physics will undertand a helmet reduces the probability of head injury. To argue against it is likley more of a personality condition - I like arguing to prove I'm the brightest in the room, fuel an ego trip etc. It just becomes tiresome. I people don't want ot wear a helmet, that's a fair choice. If people want to go around saying helmets don't make you safer when skiing - they're being a male reproductive tool. If you like arguing on forums then there's loads of stuff you can debate about snowsports. But please not this. It only takes one impressionable youngster to be fed the wrong information and make a wrong decision...
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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"It only takes one impressionable youngster to be fed the wrong information and make a wrong decision"
Do me a favour. See previous about passive aggressive arguments.
I'm out, see ya.
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Poster: A snowHead
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I'm out, see ya.[/quote]
Result!
Ski safely folks...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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As a recent beginner (last year) I have to say I was suprised by how little emphasis on safety some instructors place. I suspect this is because of the pressure to make it a 'great' and 'fun' experience - and safety briefings aren't fun. I wonder whether this is related to internet feedback "2* was a bit dull, banged on about health and safety. /yawn".
I've had instruction from a variety of instructors indoors and out - this is more a general point, not wishing to single any one out.
That said, on our group lesson in Austria the instructor briefed everyone to join the bottom of the line to avoid mowing others down. Several people didn't seem to get this, and on the last day one of them took the instructor out (no injuries thankfully). I suspect that if the instructor had been hammering home the safety instructions more that might not have happened.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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No helmets are not to blame.
Some people are idiots and some are not. People also make mistakes.
A considerate and careful skier will not stand out on the mountain.
You are not going to be sat there later thinking about the nice man that carefully passed you at a safe distance without you realising.
You will remember the dangerous Berk who cut you up
To suggest it's down to headgear is frankly ridiculous
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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+1
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I wished i was born reckless  instead iv got we 5 year olds wizzing by me like the flash, followed by there mum, then the granny over takes shortly after. Once i reach the bottom, with my sense of achievement, everyone looks a bit miffed they've waited ten minutes on me and rushes me back on a lift.
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Get new ski buddies. 
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Previous posters have used the car drivers analogy, which I believe could be the solution. You learn to drive, you pass your test, you are then are 'released' onto the motorway with people that break the speed limit . . .You then either join in quickly and put yourself and others at risk without developed skills for driving at speed, or learn through experience and drive sensibly / as conditions dictate / drive fast when safe . . . . . the reality is this normally occurs as you get older!
The solution - better lessons (perhaps even a basic ski/boarding 'licence' before one is let loose on the piste, with colour coding to allow access to more difficult slopes with experience) and better policing. No-one in their right mind continues at 90mph+ on the motorway when they see a police car up front, or in the mirror . . .those that do get nicked. Perhaps everyone could wear their unique colour coded sticker (like a number plate) on the back of their helmets . . .ski patrollers / others with go-pros could capture them skiing/boarding like idiots, especially in busy zones / beginners areas. With digital technology lift passes could be deactivated remotely and instantly - offenders would need to check-in to the lift pass office to reactivate their pass and either pay a fine or go home, depending on their previous licence status . . . .
Or maybe people should just use their tiny brains a bit more often, realise that everyone no matter what level deserves to enjoy the slopes and that no one deserves to be stretchered off on the blood wagon . . .
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| Whisky_priest wrote: |
No helmets are not to blame.
Some people are idiots and some are not. People also make mistakes.
A considerate and careful skier will not stand out on the mountain.
You are not going to be sat there later thinking about the nice man that carefully passed you at a safe distance without you realising.
You will remember the dangerous Berk who cut you up
To suggest it's down to headgear is frankly ridiculous |
Brilliant wise words...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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General deterrent.
Big sign up at each lift saying "Number of lift passes confiscated today: "
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@Orange200, +1 to that. I would happily pay another few euros for some sensible piste management.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I've seen no evidence that piste skiing is more dangerous than previously or that folks are less likely to have lessons.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Different resorts attract different types of skier.
If you go a resort that prides itself on Apres and nightlife it's going to attract a young crowd who are going to consume lots of alcohol - This will attract more of a certain type of skier.
If you go to a resort with 50 hundred rabbit hutch type apartments in one block it's going to attract a younger crowd more interested in spending moeny on Jagerbombs rather than accomadation
If you choose a resort that is very very busy, you increase the chances of a collision.
Twenty years ago I was skiing in resorts like La Plagne. I now tend to ski in the Dolomites or somewhere with a similar ethos.
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Perhaps there are no fewer collisions these days but in the days of bumpy pistes, they were at slower speeds?
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You know it makes sense.
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Reading through the above posts has made me think of something I've seen here in Saalbach area, which illustrates perfectly how naivety plays a part in serious accidents. As you ski down the blue piste from Grosse Asitz to the area around the top of the Asitzbahn and Steinbergbahn gondolas (and where two of the most popular restaurants, the Alte Schmiede and the Asitzbraeu, are situated, so it's a busy area), there is one of those roped-off 'speed test' tracks to the left-hand side of the main piste, where you are invited to go to the left of the rope, tuck down as low as possible, schuss, and see your recorded speed on a screen at the bottom. Now I enjoy doing that as much as anyone, and it's nice to see that, on a good pair of freshly-waxed skis, and in the right snow conditions, you've beaten your previous record by a few km per hour. However, to achieve a good max speed, you obviously have to build up some speed by getting as good a run at it as possible, and part of the skill - no doubt the greatest part - is in assessing the state of the main piste before you get to the roped-off section, and assessing/divining the number, competence level, and behaviour of any skiers or boarders who might be in the way. Obviously one can always hope, as the speed test section comes into view, that the run-up section of the main piste will be empty of other skiers. However it's a main thoroughfare, and it's not unusual for at least the upper part of the section of the main piste before you get to the roped-off section to be heavily-used and mogully.
There are many occasions when anyone with the slightest safety-consciousness (let alone self-preservation instinct) would immediately dismiss any intention of doing the 'speed test', because of the moguls and/or the sheer number of people - many of them novices, some small children - slowly picking their way down the part of the piste that will be used as a run-up. After all, what is the point of trying to break a previous speed record if you can't get a decent run-up? Sometimes however the piste may be relatively quiet, and it's undeniably tempting to plan a course and time the run so as to avoid any other skiers. You see skiers standing and waiting for the 'right moment'.
When I said "naivety", I was thinking not only of the piste planners, who seem to think it's a good idea to encourage this situation on a busy blue piste, but also of some of the idiots (who have a good, wide piste at their disposal) carelessly obstructing the left-hand side of the main piste, which is used as the run-up. I've seen such people doing snow-plough turns, or sudden, unexpected turns across the run-up to the speed test track, or even loitering near its entrance. It is always incumbent on anyone starting their run-up to be ready for the unexpected and to abort or swerve. Obviously it's a recipe for disaster, and the first time someone gets seriously injured or killed will no doubt see the end of the speed test.
Accepting that it's always the responsibility of the uphill skier to ensure that he/she can safely overtake, it always amazes me how utterly oblivious some people are of the danger areas, and of ensuring that they are not skiing/boarding in such a way as to cause a hazard to skiers/boarders coming from behind, e.g. sudden, unnecessary and unexpected swerves and stops. I suppose that it's really not surprising, given that a high proportion of them will never have experienced driving on a busy motorway, and none of them (bar the instructors) will have taken any test of competence.
My only quibbles with helmets are the possible psychological 'cocooning' effect, and the slight impairment of hearing. However there are other more influential factors at work - as others have said, the affordability of winter sports holidays, the busier pistes, the skier-friendly lifts, the popularity of snowboarding, and the modern ski design which encourages wider turns and more self-tuition. I agree with the suggestion that there should be more patrolling of the pistes and enforcement, when necessary, of the safety rules. I can't remember ever seeing any at all in Europe.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@Belch, I love the idea of access to runs based on ability. I'd really like to go somewhere where the ski tranquil is enforced so I can comfortably ski with my daughter (when she is ready for bigger slopes) and conversely where side slipping boarders and skiers are pulled can off the mountain for their safety and others.
I've often thought it would be a great up sell for resorts to offer exclusive access for the first hour for competant skiers.
Unfortunately the biggest clowns seem to think it is fine to carve down the ski tranquil.
Another thought, maybe it is the under grading or the grading system of runs that causes the chaos. For instance the Reds back into town at st Anton are always quieter than the blues and val d has some seriously under graded runs which are usually packed.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Mt wrote: |
| val d has some seriously under graded runs which are usually packed. |
Under-graded yes in some cases but they are not packed because they are under-graded, they are packed because they are the commuter route home, funnelling the wide area above the trees into a limited number of narrow pistes.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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But there's the rub - one persons competent is another persons lunatic/idiot/talentless oaf.
The vast majority of SHs would class themselves 'competent' and know 'the Rules' inside and out, but I'd lay money that most of us could be accused by a casual observer of some kind of transgression at some point.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Richard_Sideways, I confess to that. Reasonably safe 99.5% of the time. And then do something daft.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Richard_Sideways wrote: |
But there's the rub - one persons competent is another persons lunatic/idiot/talentless oaf. |
Amen to that
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Mt wrote: |
| @Belch, I love the idea of access to runs based on ability. I'd really like to go somewhere where the ski tranquil is enforced so I can comfortably ski with my daughter (when she is ready for bigger slopes) |
Totally agree for the same reasons . . .where have you ever seen such areas enforced in Europe though . . .?
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FAQ
