 Poster: A snowHead
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[quote="davidof"]
| Gaza wrote: |
Your 8 year old needs to slow down a bit. Imagine if he'd hit a piste marker or snow canon pole? |
Not to mention the huge red SLOW sign the 8yo passed without making any attempt to slow!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| flangesax wrote: |
I completely agree.
This is not the fault of the tourer. |
At no point did I blame the tourer.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| clarky999 wrote: |
| @davidof +1 - so much room there that there's really no excuse. |
That is easy to say. Have you ever heard of "Target Fixation"?
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Target fixation is an attentional phenomenon observed in humans in which an individual becomes so focused on an observed object that their awareness of hazards or obstacles diminishes. The phenomenon is most commonly associated with scenarios in which the observer is in control of a high-speed vehicle or other mode of transportation. In such cases, the observer may fixate so intently on the target that they will not take necessary action to avoid it, thus colliding with it.
The phenomenon is common amongst racing drivers,fighter pilots, motorcyclists, mountain bikers, and surfers, amongst others. When individuals target fixate, they are prone to steer in the direction of their gaze, which is often the ultimate cause of a collision. |
The fact the piste was so empty and the tourer was the only thing to focus on, I would say my sons collision is a classic case of target fixation.
I can remember when I rode Sport Bikes being in very similar situations. You see danger e.g. a pothole or a possible patch of oil; but instead of riding around it you find yourself heading straight for it.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Fri 18-12-15 16:24; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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[quote="Gaza"]
| davidof wrote: |
throwing his poles down and going in the huff |
Is that the place next to the Grizzly? Good happy hour.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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@Gaza,
That's why I find my son skiing in the trees so amusing 
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This is really what the lift companies are afraid of:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/dec/18/woman-sues-six-year-old-girl-over-skiing-accident-in-austria
There have been a few spurious claims already in a country that does not YET have a pattern of people playing the pass on the blame game. The article states that this woman has already had 2 law suits (against the girl's father and the ski instructor/ski school) rejected.
In purchasing and using a ticket you automatically comply with the T&Cs, particularly those about skiing responsibly and following the FIS "rules of the road". That is their "get-out-of-jail-free card" should you have, as a downhill skier using the lifts, have an accident. The tourers do not have a ticket when going uphill practising their sport and are therefore not operating within the T&Cs of their lift pass until they switch to skiing back down. The problems that are occurring are most likely not locals, it is the visitors on both sides of the argument, downhillers and uphillers
Using the excuse of "people complaining" and the possible knock on effect in terms of visitors, they have attempted to find a reason that people on the ground (i.e. the locals whose income depends on tourism) may accept.
I think it is a massive knee jerk reaction by the lift company, but I do understand where they are coming from! I don't think it will be policed at all to be honest, unless you were stupid enough to set off in front of some major lift where most of the pisteurs and the head of the lift company are watching. 
@clarky999, I believe Ödland refers to any land that is not economically productive in the traditional sense rather than wasteland. In an Alpine environment that would include any land above the treeline (i.e. no forestry) and not used as grazing in the summer. In the UK we would most likely call it high level or peat moorland or simply uplands
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@PowderAdict, yes, Katschberg has introduced a ban and will actually have a member of staff controlling the pistes to ensure the ban is observed. Katschberg sells itself as a "family" resort and its primary market is families with smaller children. @Gaza's video demonstrates the power of attraction of small people to slow-moving things! 
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@Gaza, I think this would be certain proof for a case study!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Gaza wrote: |
| davidof wrote: |
Your 8 year old needs to slow down a bit. Imagine if he'd hit a piste marker or snow canon pole? |
Believe me he was well lectured as to the error of his ways. |
Yes I bet!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@waynos, I saw that. Ernst from the full moon group posted it up. Incedentally the first tour looks like its been postponed to Jan 9th if you are about.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Mountain Addiction wrote: |
I did stress that I was referring to the prep side of touring, not the physical, but if you want to miss that out - then that's up to you. seems like a lazy way to quote if you're not going to quote the context - you must be a journalist.
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Not a journalist, not lazy but you are welcome to come on a ski tour with me here in Austria and we will see if either of us is lazy. I'll do all the prep work to save you the hassle, your call.
| Mountain Addiction wrote: |
| It may be that some people have bought ski passes, but still think it's really uncool to hinder the work ofthose trying to prep the resort for opening. If the resort isn't open, the resort isn't open. If the resort was open I can understand people being disgruntled - but only if they bought a touring pass or regular pass, it's not cool otherwise. |
We don't ski tour to be cool. We like the mountains, physical exertion, challenge of getting to places punters can't get to with lifts.
As clarky says they don't own the land. Trying to stop people doing something that is healthy & green (no electricity for lifts) just because you want to make more Euros is not cool.
...... and if any skier or piste bully driver does not have the skill to avoid a skitourer skining up at at slow walking pace then they shouldn't be on the piste in the first place.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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| DB wrote: |
| Mountain Addiction wrote: |
I did stress that I was referring to the prep side of touring, not the physical, but if you want to miss that out - then that's up to you. seems like a lazy way to quote if you're not going to quote the context - you must be a journalist.
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Not a journalist, not lazy but you are welcome to come on a ski tour with me here in Austria and we will see if either of us is lazy. I'll do all the prep work to save you the hassle, your call.
| Mountain Addiction wrote: |
| It may be that some people have bought ski passes, but still think it's really uncool to hinder the work ofthose trying to prep the resort for opening. If the resort isn't open, the resort isn't open. If the resort was open I can understand people being disgruntled - but only if they bought a touring pass or regular pass, it's not cool otherwise. |
We don't ski tour to be cool. We like the mountains, physical exertion, challenge of getting to places punters can't get to with lifts.
As clarky says they don't own the land. Trying to stop people doing something that is healthy & green (no electricity for lifts) just because you want to make more Euros is not cool.
...... and if any skier or piste bully driver does not have the skill to avoid a skitourer skining up at at slow walking pace then they shouldn't be on the piste in the first place. |
Sure, if I ever make it over to Austria you're on. Being that I spend the ENTIRE summer hiking up mountains with weighted back-packs and planning my routes, I have no reason to think I wouldn't be fit enough
I can see the literal patrol is out again, sometimes you could learn to take things with a pinch of salt. Saying 'that's not cool' doesn't always mean you're walking/skiing around thinking you own the joint, it also means that 'it's not ok' to do a thing that could impact some one or some thing else in a negative way...
So, you'll put your safety in the hands of someone driving heavy machinery because you think you inherently have the right to march up and ski down a mountain when they're still prepping it? People can't see everything all the time, as prooven by your lack of understanding of how your actions as part of a growing collective of 'over 1000 tourers at the weekend in Flachau' - as originally pointed out in the OP
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Mountain Addiction wrote: |
| Sure, if I ever make it over to Austria you're on. Being that I spend the ENTIRE summer hiking up mountains with weighted back-packs and planning my routes, I have no reason to think I wouldn't be fit enough |
Until then you can save the Internet warrior "lazy" comments.
| Mountain Addiction wrote: |
| I can see the literal patrol is out again, sometimes you could learn to take things with a pinch of salt. Saying 'that's not cool' doesn't always mean you're walking/skiing around thinking you own the joint, it also means that 'it's not ok' to do a thing that could impact some one or some thing else in a negative way... |
Someone is trying to take away my right of way on land he/she doesn't own to make money.
| Mountain Addiction wrote: |
| So, you'll put your safety in the hands of someone driving heavy machinery because you think you inherently have the right to march up and ski down a mountain when they're still prepping it? People can't see everything all the time, as prooven by your lack of understanding of how your actions as part of a growing collective of 'over 1000 tourers at the weekend in Flachau' - as originally pointed out in the OP |
So if someone took away your right of way and stopped you doing many of your walks in the summer you would just accept it?
I think it's you who doesn't understand things. Have you ever done a ski tour, did you fully understand the article in German?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| DB wrote: |
| Mountain Addiction wrote: |
| Sure, if I ever make it over to Austria you're on. Being that I spend the ENTIRE summer hiking up mountains with weighted back-packs and planning my routes, I have no reason to think I wouldn't be fit enough |
Until then you can save the Internet warrior "lazy" comments. |
No, it's alright thanks - Given we're supposed to live in a 'Free speech' society, I'll say what I think and feel about a thing - You know, you really should lighten up - you seem to be taking my thoughts and opinions about SOME people rather personally - maybe I've touched a nerve or something. But if you're so easily offended then perhaps the internet isn't the right place for you.
| DB wrote: |
| Mountain Addiction wrote: |
| I can see the literal patrol is out again, sometimes you could learn to take things with a pinch of salt. Saying 'that's not cool' doesn't always mean you're walking/skiing around thinking you own the joint, it also means that 'it's not ok' to do a thing that could impact some one or some thing else in a negative way... |
Someone is trying to take away my right of way on land he/she doesn't own to make money. |
Really!? seems like they're trying to preserve certain aspects, including your safety. So, if you're renting a house or something from some one else does that mean as the renter you have no rights? of course not, as the leasee they have right to control what happens on the land they're paying for.
| DB wrote: |
| Mountain Addiction wrote: |
| So, you'll put your safety in the hands of someone driving heavy machinery because you think you inherently have the right to march up and ski down a mountain when they're still prepping it? People can't see everything all the time, as prooven by your lack of understanding of how your actions as part of a growing collective of 'over 1000 tourers at the weekend in Flachau' - as originally pointed out in the OP |
So if someone took away your right of way and stopped you doing many of your walks in the summer you would just accept it? |
People do, all the time in the mountains - access is stopped to things at certain times of year, including when the loggers are out/ or trail maintenance - all that heavy machinary on public trails - how dare they try to make a living AND stop my right of way... tut, please. And lest we forget, all those events they have over the summer, Trailrunning contests and so forth, people pay to enter those events but I won't kick up a fuss when public access is blocked because of it - it's about sharing, it's about give and take - there's no room for selfishness in the Mountains even though they are a big place, if I can't hike somewhere, I'll hike somewhere else. We're all grown up here
| DB wrote: |
| I think it's you who doesn't understand things. Have you ever done a ski tour, did you fully understand the article in German? |
Alls I'm doing chum is getting involved in a discussion... that's allowed right or perhaps you think you're the only one allowed to an opinion and everyone else is irrelevant, clearly you think you have ownership over a huge amount of stuff - it's such an aged concept to say 'but it's my right' YAWN
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@Mountain Addiction,
You're the guy who is telling everyone they are missing something and they don't understand something you do.
It might seem they are trying to preserve my safety, my opinion as someone who has extensively ski toured and is fluent in German is that they are trying to preserve their earnings. Other resorts have entered into give and take agreements, these people just want to ban ski touring alltogether on land they don't own. Even if you rent property from someone which has a public right of way you are not permitted to block that right of way as you see fit.
As another example there are ski tours people have been doing for decades that didn't cross a piste but then the resort extends meaning the ski tourer has to cross a piste. Austria has 350+ ski resorts so finding another tour in the area is not always possible.
I'll ask you again have you ever been ski touring? Can you read German i.e. did you fully understand the article?
PS where did I say you didn't have a right to your opinion, that only my opinion is valid or that I owned anything?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Not really, I didn't tell everyone they didn't understand things - I gave my opinion, then others picked up on things, asked questions, I answered, asked more questions, a few more comments went back and forth - last i checked that was called debate or conversation. Not really sure what you're getting at... are you saying we can't have a discussion about stuff? what else is a forum supposed to be for - this is where you seem to be getting confused about and even implying that I don't know what I'm talking about What's wrong with seeing something from two sides? if you read back the thread you would see i covered that on page 2
I've been once or twice, but I couldn't dedicate enough time to it as my work is pretty full on in the Winter. It is something I want to take up if I had enough time, after reading maps and things there are a huge amount of touring routes, and think I would get in to hutting not up and down pistes. You don't always have to tour in a resort.
What's wrong with protecting their earnings? If the company renting the land didn't clear the land start with there wouldn't be a piste for you to skin up, it wouldn't be groomed, it wouldn't be so easy to access, so I can still see thier POV.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
| What's wrong with protecting their earnings? |
But as has been said a few times already… the vast majority of people skinning up a piste are locals with season passes.
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@Mountain Addiction,
Quotes like this are very condescending and patronising.
| Mountain Addiction wrote: |
| People can't see everything all the time, as prooven by your lack of understanding of how your actions as part of a growing collective of 'over 1000 tourers at the weekend in Flachau' - as originally pointed out in the OP |
Yes we can have a discussion but just because you are behind the Internet doesn't mean you can treat people like idiots or differently than you would face to face. Inferring that ski tourers were lazy was a classic.
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| Mountain Addiction wrote: |
| What's wrong with protecting their earnings? If the company renting the land didn't clear the land start with there wouldn't be a piste for you to skin up, it wouldn't be groomed, it wouldn't be so easy to access, so I can still see thier POV. |
Nothing is wrong with them protecting their earmings. I can understand them being upset if many tourers are skinning up in a zig zag fashion on a piste they prepared. On the other hand, preventing me from crossing pistes, esp ones that were created to run through a previously established ski touring route is wrong in my opinion.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| miranda wrote: |
| Quote: |
| What's wrong with protecting their earnings? |
But as has been said a few times already… the vast majority of people skinning up a piste are locals with season passes. |
Do you have figures for that?
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@davidof, no, but it's who I observe doing it here and I assume the others who've made that assertion in this thread (e.g. Clarky and Kooky) are doing the same… perhaps I'm wrong and they do have figures.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| DB wrote: |
@Mountain Addiction,
Quotes like this are very condescending and patronising.
| Mountain Addiction wrote: |
| People can't see everything all the time, as prooven by your lack of understanding of how your actions as part of a growing collective of 'over 1000 tourers at the weekend in Flachau' - as originally pointed out in the OP |
Yes we can have a discussion but just because you are behind the Internet doesn't mean you can treat people like idiots or differently than you would face to face. Inferring that ski tourers were lazy was a classic. |
How is that condescending? how is it patronising? Some people can't see everything all the time (in referrence to someone driving a pisten bully - cleverly misquoted again) and you are seemingly not grasping the fact that it surely will create problems when over 1000 people go marching up a downhill run of a weekend... Explain how i'm being patronising and condescending
Again with the choosing to ignore that I was referring to the prep and learning the mountain, and not plumbing for the easy option of skinning up the piste... You can ignore what I said and continue to misquote all you like, but you're only re-inforcing misunderstanding. And how do you know i wouldn't say this 'in real life' I call it how I see it.
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Sat 19-12-15 16:13; edited 1 time in total
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| DB wrote: |
| Mountain Addiction wrote: |
| What's wrong with protecting their earnings? If the company renting the land didn't clear the land start with there wouldn't be a piste for you to skin up, it wouldn't be groomed, it wouldn't be so easy to access, so I can still see thier POV. |
Nothing is wrong with them protecting their earmings. I can understand them being upset if many tourers are skinning up in a zig zag fashion on a piste they prepared. On the other hand, preventing me from crossing pistes, esp ones that were created to run through a previously established ski touring route is wrong in my opinion. |
You didn't say that in your comments until now - took your time about it too.
But i can see why that would annoy you.
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@Mountain Addiction,
Just because the people who want to stop ski tourers are talking it up to 1000's doesn't mean it is so or that they all went up together on the same piste. I don't see any pictures with a high density of ski tourers blocking the piste on the way up. The reason there are so many tourers on the piste at the moment is because their isn't a lot of snow about. Normally it isn't so bad but the operators have chosen the traffic on one wekend to ban ski tourers for the whole season. You seem to be getting ski touring mixed up with mountain Walking / trekking, there isn't always an alternative route in the area with enough snow cover. You think they are just being lazy and not picking out another route but it's obvious to me you have never planned a ski tour in your life.
| Mountain Addiction wrote: |
| How is that condescending? how is it patronising? Some people can't see everything all the time (in referrence to someone driving a pisten bully - cleverly misquoted again) and you are seemingly not grasping the fact that it surely will create problems when over 1000 people go marching up a downhill run of a weekend... Explain how i'm being patronising and condescending |
Let me get this right, you have been on a couple of ski tours, don't understand German and are trying to tell other snowheads who have lived / ski toured here for years and speak German that they are failing to see something from an article you don't understand yourself?
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You know it makes sense.
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| DB wrote: |
@Mountain Addiction,
Just because the people who want to stop ski tourers are talking it up to 1000's doesn't mean it is so or that they all went up together on the same piste. I don't see any pictures with a high density of ski tourers blocking the piste on the way up. The reason there are so many tourers on the piste at the moment is because their isn't a lot of snow about. Normally it isn't so bad but the operators have chosen the traffic on one wekend to ban ski tourers for the whole season. You seem to be getting ski touring mixed up with mountain Walking / trekking, there isn't always an alternative route in the area with enough snow cover. You think they are just being lazy and not picking out another route but it's obvious to me you have never planned a ski tour in your life.
Let me get this right, you have been on a couple of ski tours, don't understand German and are trying to tell other snowheads who have lived / ski toured here for years and speak German that they are failing to see something from an article you don't understand yourself? |
Show me numbers to the contrary then. Show me what routes people take and when. I didn't say they actually blocked the piste, I said as long as they don't obstruct - show me where i said they DO obstuct the piste. And I did make it quite clear that I hadn't been on a proper tour, just tried it once or twice but couldn't commit due to work (again with the lack of reading what has been written )
Some of my friends tour, and I talk about touring with them a fair bit
I didn't say any one was failing to see anything and I'm not claiming to be an expert in anything, I said I can see an arguement from both sides, AGAIN if you care to read what has been written. When are you are going to understand that I can see BOTH SIDES of the arguement, and that there is nothing wrong with that... and you say i'm an internet warrior.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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From the original article ......
Gäste haben sich beschwert, es sei auch schon fast zu Kollisionen zwischen Tourengehern und Skifahrern gekommen, schildert Ernst Brandstätter von den Bergbahnen Flachau: „Gäste haben zu uns gesagt, sie kommen nicht mehr zu uns skifahren, wenn wir so viele Tourengeher in die Gegenrichtung haben“. Auch die Mithaftung als Pistenbetreiber um Falle eines Unfalls sei ein Grund für das Verbot.
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"Guests have complained that there were almost collisions between Ski Tourers and Alpine skiers" said Ernst Brandstätter from the Flauchau lift Company "Guests have said that they won't be coming to ski here in Flauchau again when we have so many ski tourers ascending in the opposite direction". In case of a collision the respective liability issues are also a reason for the ski touring ban.
This is supported with one picture of two ski tourers on a piste.
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Poster: A snowHead
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And who worte the article. Is it a downhill or a tourer or someone playing devils advocat - saying the guests of Flachau said one thing and conveniently putting a picture that implies the contrary?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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3 Ski tourers were charged with trespassing on a closed piste back in 2011. The ski lift company dropped the charges saying they just wanted to highlight the issue so that a better solution could be found.
http://ooev1.orf.at/stories/538008
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I say ban the Lift dodgers. 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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From another article .....
Laut einer Studie der Universität Innsbruck über die Unfallsituation sei das Risiko einer Kollision von Skifahrern und aufsteigenden Tourengehern verschwindend gering. "Die Unfallstatistik zeigt eindeutig, dass es keinen Grund zur Panikmache gibt."
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According to a Study conducted by the University of Innsbruck, the accident risk between a descending alpine skier and an ascending ski tourer is negligible. The statistics very clearly show that there are no grounds for panic.
http://www.salzburg.com/nachrichten/salzburg/chronik/sn/artikel/tourengeher-alpenverein-gegen-generelles-pistenverbot-177159/
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| miranda wrote: |
| @davidof, no, but it's who I observe doing it here and I assume the others who've made that assertion in this thread (e.g. Clarky and Kooky) are doing the same… perhaps I'm wrong and they do have figures. |
ok, thanks.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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@Mountain Addiction, it was a quote from Ernst Brandstätter, the CEO of the lift company who have rented the right to access the land in winter for the use of skiers with ski passes. The land is privately owned and the landowners are given a percentage of the income according to how much their land is used. There is a counter on each gate at the bottom station and the total is divvied up amongst the various land owners at the end of the season according to how many skiers actually crossed the land.
There are various compromise solutions available, but rising lift prices, poor snow in the usual touring areas, etc., have concentrated people into increasingly smaller areas and on piste, as well as more people taking up the sport. I saw more tourers to be honest between Wagrain and Alpendorf on the first Saturday of the season than I did piste skiers and in a couple of places I did have to wait for more than a couple to pass before I could move on. The next day I was at Reiteralm and did not see any, but the weather was not as good and Reiteralm is somewhat steeper from the car parks upwards. Or the tourers used some of the other access points to practice their sport.
When there is enough snow the tourers disappear to a large extent as there is more than enough coverage on the forest trails and other points of access. But is takes just a few bad apples to spoil the entire barrel and that goes for both sides. Brandstätter says that they have had complaints from piste skiers, I can imagine the types very easily. Flachau's main plateau at the top of the Achter Jet is notorious for collisions as several runs cross each other as they all make their way to the one of the lift back up to the top of the resort or further down the slope to the valley runs. I avoid that area like the plague to be honest, especially at high season. The tourers were probably no bother, but some loudmouths complained and said they would not return. Fine most would say, bugger off. BUT and as @DB knows only too well, these loudmouths continue their moaning back home and so the reputation of the resort as overcrowded and dangerous grows and people decide to go elsewhere. Brandstätter was between a rock and a very hard place and at least his action has finally started a public debate at both local, provincial and national level.
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| Samerberg Sue wrote: |
| @Mountain Addiction, it was a quote from Ernst Brandstätter, the CEO of the lift company who have rented the right to access the land in winter for the use of skiers with ski passes. The land is privately owned and the landowners are given a percentage of the income according to how much their land is used. There is a counter on each gate at the bottom station and the total is divvied up amongst the various land owners at the end of the season according to how many skiers actually crossed the land. |
I already knew how funds for land owners were diviied up. So, i'm not really sure why you are targetting me with this comment.
| Samerberg Sue wrote: |
When there is enough snow the tourers disappear to a large extent as there is more than enough coverage on the forest trails and other points of access. But is takes just a few bad apples to spoil the entire barrel and that goes for both sides. Brandstätter says that they have had complaints from piste skiers, I can imagine the types very easily. Flachau's main plateau at the top of the Achter Jet is notorious for collisions as several runs cross each other as they all make their way to the one of the lift back up to the top of the resort or further down the slope to the valley runs. I avoid that area like the plague to be honest, especially at high season. The tourers were probably no bother, but some loudmouths complained and said they would not return. Fine most would say, bugger off. BUT and as @DB knows only too well, these loudmouths continue their moaning back home and so the reputation of the resort as overcrowded and dangerous grows and people decide to go elsewhere. Brandstätter was between a rock and a very hard place and at least his action has finally started a public debate at both local, provincial and national level. |
But this doesn't answer why the article chooses to use a picture of just 2 people touring.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Mountain Addiction, I have toured with DB, let me tell you the man is fit 
@DB, thanks for the links, looks like Rauris have got a great solution, maybe the other resorts can follow their lead?
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