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Cross country skiing

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
This season I want to have a go at cross country, whilst I have a vague idea of the principles I don't really have a clue how to start, what kit I might need to hire, which style is easiest for someone like me (fairly good alpine, some basic touring). We're likely to be able to get a few days in the Jura this winter so thought to have a lesson and then just give it a go and so I'm seeking snowHeads general wisdom on where to start? And any recommendations on where to go as we'll need the equivalent of greens and blues!
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To get started, hire skis and boots, attach to feet, walk. Isn't hard. I'm sure someone will be along shortly to recommend lessons.
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@homphomp, beginners generally do "classic" style XC. And yes, I'll oblige @dogwatch by suggesting lessons. I was learning XC about the same time as I was learning snowboarding, and found the latter easier. It's definitely not a case of walking. "C'est un sport de glisse" as the instructor kept telling us. I believe there are some great XC spots in the Jura. Have fun.

Skis are very different for classic and skating. And, as with downhill, there are some skis not suitable for beginners. Just tell the hire shop you're a beginner and would like something fairly stable! (not that they'll feel remotely stable wink ).
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Thanks both...I'm assuming (probably wrongly) that the sliding technique is similar to the touring skinning I've done? I'm more worried about going downhill and stopping tbh! Can you snowplough on toothpicks or is there another way? And do I need a forfait of some sort?
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I found it quite easy to pick up. You just need to get enough speed/momentum going so you don't stop between each stride, then you will start to feel the glide.
Have great fun on my local golf course when the snow arrives.
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Quote:

that the sliding technique is similar to the touring skinning I've done? I'm more worried about going downhill and stopping tbh! Can you snowplough on toothpicks or is there another way? And do I need a forfait of some sort?

not really like skinning as the skins stop the skis sliding entirely. A XC ski will have glide zones at both ends and a kick zone in the middle - going uphill (and it probably wouldn't be anything like as steep as you've done skinning) the technique is to sort of hop onto the kick zone, which will grip, then glide (ie even going uphill a XC skier with good technique will glide to a degree, with short hoppy sort of steps). But you're absolutely right, it's going downhill and stopping which is the most difficult part - you can always plod unskillfully uphill, using your poles to assist.

Yes, you can snowplough but it's difficult. In the tracks (which disappear when it's steep) you can slow down by lifting just one ski out and do a "demi chasse neige", slowing by transferring weight more onto that ski. As a beginner on anything steep you'll probably take the skis off and walk down in the very comfortable boots!

Tracks in our area are graded green to black, just like alpine runs, so you can hopefully avoid the steep bits!
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terrible description of technique, sorry - you need an instructor! Different skis work differently for kick and glide - some need far more skill than others.
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@homphomp, classic appears to be easier/less effort but I am not at all convinced. We started skating two winters ago and without a doubt, it is completely not self evident. You need a (good) instructor. For whatever reason we didn't do so much last season so task number 1 when re-starting this year is taking out our instructor. We've used Lindsey at http://tracks-and-trails.com/ and while she's based in Chamonix I know they organised to do teh big Jura race last year.

On kit however. for skating at least, the general wisdom is that (to a certain point) the more you spend the better and more enjoyable the kit. The cheaper "beginners" is no easier nor more comfortable so try and buy the best quality you can. Going for carbon fibre everything however, as a raw beginner, may be a little excessive.

We ended up acquiring far better kit than we'd expected by buying in Quechua in April ~50% reduction.

As for where, check out

http://www.skidefond.ch/

http://www.jura-tourism.com/A-voir-A-faire/Vivre-le-Jura/Ski-et-vacances-a-la-neige/Domaines-skiables-du-Jura

And I'm pleased I came in on this as I had no idea there was so much to do - it's enormous http://plan.espacenordiquejurassien.com/

Anyway back to kit... rent for the first few experiences. Generally I've found rental gear of good quality.
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under a new name wrote:


On kit however. for skating at least, the general wisdom is that (to a certain point) the more you spend the better and more enjoyable the kit. .


How much were you thinking of? You can get Rossignol Zymax skis for 100 euros (ex bindings) and that's already a good intermediate level ski. If you spend much more you are getting onto stiffer, expert level kit which is for powerful skiers with good technique and won't suit a beginner, or even intermediate at all. Same with boots, the more expensive (race) boots are stiff, not that comfortable and often not that warm either.
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@pam w, is there a posh french phrase for popping one leg out of the track then making a one legged snow-plough whilst saying something like 'aaarghh....' before falling in a heap?
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@davidof, we spent iirc, something like €280 each for boots, skis, bindings and poles.
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I think this ski

http://www.sport-conrad.com/en/cross-country/skis/skating-ski/crs-skate-nis.html

My comment was more that you shouldn't buy the cheapest possible whereas you can get away with that with alpine skis when you start. In fact, I may be regurgitating your advice to me from a couple of years ago...


Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Tue 8-12-15 15:58; edited 1 time in total
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dogwatch wrote:
To get started, hire skis and boots, attach to feet, walk. Isn't hard. I'm sure someone will be along shortly to recommend lessons.

That's where most people gone wrong, the "walk" part.

If you want to walk on snow, hire some snowshoes. If you want to ski, hire an instructor!

That said, some people can pick it up by trial and (not too much) error. The key thing to remember is, as pam w said, "C'est un sport de glisse". How to get the most "glisse", is a life long pursuit.

As for downhill, that's a whole topic to itself. Snowplough works. But since heels are free, the amount of pressure you can put on the edge of the skis is somewhat limited. So, start controlling the speed early'ish.

Turning is also a bit different, that's another topic your instructor can help. If you have a good ability turn, you don't need to worry quite as much about slowing and stopping.
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under a new name wrote:
I think this ski

http://www.sport-conrad.com/en/cross-country/skis/skating-ski/crs-skate-nis.html

My comment was more that you shouldn't buy the cheapest possible whereas you can get away with that with alpine skis when you start. In fact, I may be regurgitating your advice to me from a couple of years ago...


I was just wondering where you were pitching things. You can spend 800 euros on a pair of boots!!! But the Fisher ski you link to is an excellent product. German XC magazine ski of the year in 2014 in its class. You couldnt do better than that or the Zymax.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Quote:

is there a posh french phrase for popping one leg out of the track then making a one legged snow-plough

faire un demi chasse neige........ ouf merde!

The OP will no doubt hire gear. Some friends who rented gear in the wrong shop in Les Saisies got given skating skis and turned up to a beginner lesson of classic. Fortunately the instructor was very accommodating and said he'd do the lesson the following day, for no extra charge. But I dare say that in the Jura there are no hire shops so dopey about XC gear.

Turning - other than snowplough turns (which are easier than snowplough stops) means making "petits pas tournants". They're not easy at all, requiring expert balance with very rapid shifts of weight from foot to foot. The local alpine race clubs put the kids on XC skis to improve their balance. Our last instructor said not to think about skating until you've mastered this turning technique on classic skis (which I emphatically haven't).

You definitely need to start slowing down early - another advantage of having an instructor to tell you when there are steep bits round the next corner, or whether you should keep the speed up.

As ever, the state of the snow makes a huge difference. Icy tracks are very unpleasant.
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 Poster: A snowHead
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There is a "black" run in Argentiere (where else) which looks frankly terrifying. It would be a decent red pitch on alpine skis. On nordics? Shocked

@davidof, I'm very pleased to hear that. The poor things were bought and then consigned to the garage, probably with tags still attached.

Talk that Chamonix nordic opening this weekend, given the conditions the XCs might get released before the alpines Shocked
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Good point Pam, i was told that some XC time would benefit my Alpine skiing and i think i agree, you do need to hone your balancing / centering much more than you can get away with on Alpine gear. Even the realtively flimsy boots make you very aware of which parts of your feet are working. Lean the wrong way and there is no solid chunk of plastic to hold you up.
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Thank you all for such a lot of info...about to go out on my first Xmas jolly so will study it in detail when I've sobered up tomorrow Wink. I'm beginning to get a tiny bit terrified of the slowing down,turning, downhill bits....I think we'll seek out a nice flat bit to start on!!
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what I find irritating is I can skate very happily on roller blades, which have even less support than skis, but fall to pieces on skis.
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under a new name wrote:
what I find irritating is I can skate very happily on roller blades, which have even less support than skis, but fall to pieces on skis.


Different movements on blades where you tend to be toe first, try rollerskis if you want to see how easy skiing on snow is Happy.

I posted this before, but something to aim for in the spring Happy


http://youtube.com/v/jo5HiyXSJww
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Amazing skiing. Laughing
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@davidof, quite how do you mean toe first?
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@davidof, great vid. OK that's my target. wink
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one difference is, I guess, that the roller blades move with your feet.
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under a new name wrote:
@davidof, quite how do you mean toe first?


Skating your heel is free so the back of the ski hits the ground first whereas with rollerskis the front rollers make contact first - so the balance is different. XC people say blading is not a good summer activity as you build up the wrong muscle memory.

Here Coraline Thomas takes some pro skaters out on rollerskis and they found it quite unnatural

https://vimeo.com/142292464

Please post your thoughts (@pam - good point). I've not bladed in over a decade although I was pretty good at one time.

I'm not an instructor or even close so as someone said above there are quite a few technicalities to both classic and skate techniques and the OP should take some lessons as it will save building up bad habits. How do you know you have bad habits? When you are super fit but a 70 year old granny overtakes you on a climb! Happy.
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@davidof, I thought that was what you were suggesting. Interesting. I think when I am skating at peak efficiency my skates land neutrally.

I haven't concentrated on it though.

It also seems a little complicated though as the ski landing first isn't a huge moment, but as we know, the brain is very good at interpreting very subtle signals.

Hmmm. muchto ponder.
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@homphomp, most people used to start on classic then do skating, now it seems to split older folk classic, younger ones on skates. I do, classic and enjoy it a lot, especially on snowy days.
The kit is cheap to buy (decathlon) or hire. At first you fall over quite a bit but you will not be going too fast and won't get crashed into very often. Most stations you will need a pass at around 10 euro which pays for the track prep. Like most things you will learn a bit quicker if you have a lesson or two but there are a few helpful lessons on YouTube.
The scary bit is lack of control and too much speed on the down but a little courage goes a long way. It is possible and usual to snowplough but it's not so easy, the alternative for turning is lots of little steps. There is an etiquette about not blocking the track so if you fall or need a rest get out of the way, generally it's up to the person overtaking to swap tracks.
I'm thinking of doing the Gran Traverse of the Jura this winter I might just bump into you. Have fun.
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If your skiing in tracks you can also use a half plough, one ski stays in the track and the other is in a snowplough position, takes a little practice but is very effective at controlling your speed. For going down hill in tracks just hang on in there, flex your knees and let the track guide you. If the track is worn away on the bends you can try skate turns, as you push off on your outside ski you step your inside ski around, do lots of little steps until you pick up the track once again.
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In our area they deliberately stop the tracks on steeper descents.

Quote:

I'm thinking of doing the Gran Traverse of the Jura this winter

That looks terrific, @jbob. 180 kms, to be done in 6 - 8 days by an experienced skier! I'd want to take a fair bit longer - max I've done is 20 kms and about 300m vertical, and I found that quite hard work, but it was on a pisted walking track - no XC tracks, which would make it a lot easier.

We have 120kms in Les Saisies so that'll keep me busy for a long time to come, but that Jura boucle does look like something special.
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pam w wrote:
max I've done is 20 kms and about 300m vertical,


that's very good Pam.

With Classic gear you can go anywhere you want, which is not quite so easy on Skate gear which requires compact snow. For example I climbed up to the col du Coq last year on a snow covered road using cross country technique on scaled skis then snowploughed and parallel back down. It would not have been easy on skating gear although sometimes that road is so trafficked by walkers and sledgers you could skate up it.

Then there is nordic touring gear which is experiencing a renaissance in France but has long been popular in the US and with some Brits.
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I did wonder about nordic touring but in the end, going for classic XC where I could be 100% safe on my own - and with plenty of tracks (some beyond my ability) to choose from locally, seemed more sensible. The long trip was at the end of a week's lessons, last year. The instructor asked if we'd like to do a day trek, rather than just the two hour lesson, so he and four of us did a much longer trip, with a picnic lunch (Beaufort sandwiches, naturally). The gradient was very gentle - the first half hour or so up a gentle green alpine piste, then a walking track. I found the going up OK but even though it was gentle, some of the coming down was a bit nerve-wracking, given my shaky technique. But a lot quicker! I enjoyed the descent of the green piste at the end as it was a much nicer surface than the walking track and had a pile of snow and trees both sides. The perceived drop off some parts of the track higher up above the treeline had been a bit unnerving, earlier though objectively there was absolutely no danger at all. One of the French women was in tears. I could just about manage it but told myself I'd take my skis off and walk down with her for a few hundred yards or so, to keep her company. wink

One of the group that week had joined ours on the second day, having started on a course for skating but finding she couldn't manage it. She wasn't very fit, which probably hadn't helped. Skating looks like hard work for those with poor technique! the instructor told us all we weren't ready for it - not that I'd had any illusions on that score, personally.

There are plenty of elderly - and impressive - skaters round Les Saisies.
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Quote:

Then there is nordic touring gear which is experiencing a renaissance in France but has long been popular in the US and with some Brits.

That's what I now use mostly.

Yes, I'm in the US. I got it a couple years back. Now I barely touch my super-glide but very finicky waxable xc skis. I miss the glides but with snow mostly turning to ice after 24 hr or so, the waxable is just too much fuss to use. I keep on thinking I'll buy another setup with non-wax but light weight for those less than perfect snow conditions. But so far the motivation isn't strong enough just yet.

In the mean time, for the price of a bit of extra weight and a bit less glide, the nordic touring skis have metal edges, making it much easier snowploughing down the hill.
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Quote:

the nordic touring skis have metal edges, making it much easier snowploughing down the hill

I was rather taken by that, when I was reading about XC gear, but decided that in my situation - living in one of the best XC areas in France - I really need skis which fit in the tracks. Generally classic XC are waxless and there's some very clever technology about. The instructors I've had have all insisted that they are the answer for recreational skiers - and I think you can also get pretty good waxless skating skis? A bit of wax on the gliding sections is optional and not difficult.
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How about SnowBoard Cross Country ?


http://youtube.com/v/4w7sVSMbjyM

Last season was dire for XC in the Serre Che valley and surrounding areas (no decent snow in the valley). For the British Army Champs Nordic tracks were built up at the Col du Lautaret which I see they've done again this year.

I was hoping to migrate to skating but think I only went out a couple of times rolling eyes

I attempt to use XC as an alternative to high intensity training (cycling), though this season I'm taking a turbo with me for indoor cycle training in my garage, so hopefully that will make it snow!

If you have a HR / GPS monitor then it's great to see how your HR comes down as you get better style and are more fluid. Then you can start to beast yourself and improve on times.

We have a nice 10km loop 5mins from home, when I first started was around 1hr 15min after six or seven excursions was down to circa 50min
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Quote:

Last season was dire for XC in the Serre Che valley and surrounding areas

It was good in Les Saisies because the XC is not in the bottom of the valley - it's mostly between 1600 - 1800m. There wasn't much open in the grim snow at Christmas and I'm sure that the skiing was horrible - as it was on the mainly-artificial alpine pistes which they managed to keep going. But after that week it was all pretty much all open all season, which ends three quarters of the way through April.
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pam w wrote:
Quote:

the nordic touring skis have metal edges, making it much easier snowploughing down the hill

I was rather taken by that, when I was reading about XC gear, but decided that in my situation - living in one of the best XC areas in France - I really need skis which fit in the tracks. Generally classic XC are waxless and there's some very clever technology about. The instructors I've had have all insisted that they are the answer for recreational skiers - and I think you can also get pretty good waxless skating skis? A bit of wax on the gliding sections is optional and not difficult.


By waxless you mean you don't need special waxes to make the skis stick (kick wax)? Wax is always useful to go a bit quicker (glide wax) and waxing XC skis for speed is an art form that some national teams spend $$$ trying to perfect. The Norwegians are supposed to be masters.

The Nordic touring skis (SRN - ski de rando nordic in France) are scaled like XC skis for short slopes but you can also fit skins. The big advantage is the light weight compared to alpine gear. Turns can be snowplough, alpine (paramark as it is known) or even telemark. In France this website is the reference for Nordic Touring: http://www.skirandonneenordique.com/ without knowing more it seems that any route rated 1.1 -> 2.3 (in alpine touring terms) should be feasible with nordic gear but I also saw this trip report: http://www.skirandonneenordique.com/sorties/recits-de-sorties/croix-de-chamrousse/ where two guys had done the Croix de Chamrousse on skating gear. Shocked Of course if you really want to make your ski trip a misery take a pulka with you.


Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Wed 9-12-15 10:36; edited 1 time in total
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I had my first go at XC last season in Canmore AB, decided to go for skating and all I can say is prepare to be absolutely knackered and fall over a lot Smile

Great fun though..
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@pam w, I was under the impression that the wax was to make the skis stick to the snow when pushing and only applied underfoot. Replaced in most cases by fish scale like texture.

Skating skis don't get waxed because you're pushing against the (plastic Shocked ) edge.
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Quote:

Skating skis don't get waxed

I believe they do if you're an aspiring Olympian......

On classic skis glide wax goes on the flat front and back part of the skis. I don't bother, with mine, but I'm told I should. The instructor did it for me, one morning last winter, because he said the state of the snow was such that I'd find it helpful.

There's a "fartage" hut at the entrance to our XC area.
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