 Poster: A snowHead
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These are the claims of 'chris 178', posting on the Natives forum yesterday. Are they unusual, in 2006? :
http://www.natives.co.uk/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=5456
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doing my first season and am a bit cheesed off already
supposed to be a chalet assistant but so far have been hotel assistant,kp,maintenance handyman and now asst chef |
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my hours are 07.00 till 14.00 then 16.00 till 23.00 5 days a
week 05.00 start on change over day and one day off a week |
The calculation of total hours per week is mine, based on 5 days at 14 hours, plus his Saturday, which seems to be a 16-hour day. So that makes 86 hours.
He gets a day off, and is paid £80 per week for that lot.
How typical is this in the UK tour operating/hotel/chalet industry? Are there legal limits to working hours in ski resorts?
My one and only 'winter' was 1974/5, as an unqualified ski instructor (I did the BASI at the end of the winter) on Cairngorm for a school travel company. Our responsibilities included issuing rental equipment to the kids on arrival, and teaching them, with at least one day off per week.
Our working day was effectively 7 hours, including a lunch hour when we didn't have to supervise the kids (their schoolteachers looked after them). We accompanied them on the return journey to the mountain in buses (about 1 hour each way).
I think we were paid £15 per week - but that was 30 years ago - and we got loads of free skiing in between lessons and on our free days. [Our accommodation, breakfast and evening meals were included].
chris 178's job does sound like pure exploitation to me.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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David Goldsmith, I got £53 pw on Cairngorm for a 6 day week (only 6 hours per day though) in 1985 and I felt very poor indeed (but not exploited - it was a fun learning experience leading to a qualification). Think my rent was £15 pw and we bought our own grub. I was indeed licking the road clean every morning so how this bloke gets by in a ski resort today I don't know. He is being exploited but obviously is intelligent enough to do something about that if he wants to so I have no sympathy... he's having a ball I expect.
It's all part of the dirty underground tour operating business model that I touched on in the hotel v. chalet thread. Cheap labour, cheap properties, cheap food all dressed up and heavily PR'd as chalet holiday heaven. Their winter profits rely on filling these wretched places at almost any cost.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Come on guys! Pure exploitation? You forget to add that he will be getting a season long ski pass, accomodation and food. The first month is usually the worst of the season. Hours seem long and jobs take forever. However, after a while what used to take until 14.00 only takes until 11.00 etc. If it were really that bad, nobody would do a second season and many do.
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You have to take into account "extras" provided by the employer, which may include accomodation, food, ski rental, lift pass....
Accomodation would cost around £50 pppw?
Lift pass £100?
Food £40?
Equipment hire £50?
With all this added in, based on 86 hours, he's getting paid just under £4 per hour....and gets to live in a ski resort. There's worse lives to be had.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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David Goldsmith, I suggest you read many of the other threads on Natives that exist around this subject for a sensible answer to your question from those doing the job and those paying people to do the job.
Just as food for thought, how long does it take to make a bed? How long is a piece of string!
How long does it take to prep up to-nights meal? and of course how long does it take to clean a toilet pedestal and bowl?
As a point of information the UK Hotel Industry morm is 30 minutes to clean a 3 star hotel bedroom to the required standard.
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Although £86 does seem low if all the additional extras are provided then he's not doing to badly.
I have always wanted to do at least a season but know married and with a mortgage it's not possible. Wish I had done it when I was younger.
Maybe it's also a sign of the younger generation. wanting every thinggiven them on a plate. Now he's in the real world he suddenly finds he as got to do some work where before mother tidied up for him made his bed and gave him spending money when he needed it.
He should think himself lucky to have the opportunity.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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David Goldsmith, If the employment is in Europe they are subject to the working time regulations, these are compulsory and cannot be ignored or avoided by signing a document of exclusion. The maximum scheduled hours are 48 according to these regulations over an average of 12 weeks with a minimum of 36 hours between shifts once a week. Employers are required to keep time sheet records for 5 years. Usually it is only large companies that apply these regulations because they can afford to. Small companies don't have the staff in depth to do it without staffing purely part time staff. If an employee wishes to apply these laws the employer cannot sack a person because of wanting or enforcing these regulations, however I suspect reality is different and many employees in the tourist industry are taken for a ride. Because of high staff turnover year on year these practises of labour law abuse just continue.
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chris is just a whinger who was expecting it to be a holiday!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
| Because of high staff turnover year on year these practises of labour law abuse just continue. |
These folk talk to each other, many will have been on chalet holidays themselves, they're not naive, and many do come back to the better establishments. As for the worse establishments, I know of an instance (I suspect it's rare) where the operation had to close because the staff rebelled against a tyrannical and cheapskate owner. It's called the free market, and works a lot better than one-size-fits-all laws dictated from Brussels.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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laundryman, I agree with what you say about the one size fits all laws from Brussels I'm not suggesting for one minute that I support these labour laws, however they are there and they are laws designed to protect the employee.
As an employer it is really infuriating when you are threatened prosecution with non compliance for scheduling 4 or 5 hours over the limit when others companies in the UK and abroad flagrantly disregard these laws and get away with it.
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If you're lucky (!) enough to be in the engineering (or finance?) industry, it's relatively easy to be employed for 8 months of the year through an agency as a subbie on twice the pay of a permie and live off the profits for 4 months skiing. I know someone that has an entire summer off sailing by this method.
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You know it makes sense.
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I always thought that being a resort doctor would be quite nice. 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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You'd never be short of work...
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Poster: A snowHead
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| AlexF wrote: |
Out of interest, given the right qualifications/experience etc, what do people think is the best combination of living to be made/ski lifestyle to be had in the mountains? I rather suspect the best thing to do is work remotely for a separate industry altogether but close enough to the snow to get access in spare time...
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Well, I reckon I was pretty lucky - spent a season in Andorra as an EFL teacher. Good tax free salary, 24 hour working week, and almost all classes either early morning or evening. Managed to ski at least 5 days a week for between 2 and 6 hours a day (could have done a lot more but, as the song goes, you don't know what you've got til it's gone), paid for my own season pass, bought new skis and boots, and came back after nine months with enough cash in the bank to pay off my student debts (it was a good few years ago though!).
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I wonder how Nade is bearing up - I'm sure she will give us all a full account of, 'the day, in a life of a chalet maid'.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I do love reading all this old malarkey it's almost as good as reading some of the nonsense Masque has posted about chalet holidays, based on his own extensive experience. Complete and utter nonsense, granted that chalet staff work hard, but if they're smart they should be finished by 10.30, out skiing until 4.00 pm, back to check afternoon teas and have a rest until 6.00 then work through till 9.30-10.00 when it's time for the pub. What a load of uninformed bollax which can be checked with any of our chalet staff who are certainly not expected to work the hours described.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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David@traxvax, But some of the bigger TOs do expect those hours. I have met a number of youngsters who aer literally on 24/7 call and find it very difficult to get out skiing. However, they want to come for a season, most do not speak any other languages so are restricted on employment, and I have not much sympathy either. It's not a working holiday it's work. Many are exploited though - but this guy seems relatively well paid to me!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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One has to remember that many of these workers are students on some form of gap year, and this will probably me the first "proper " work ever done by these workshy fops.
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Frosty the Snowman, OTOH, some are brilliant - and not whingers!
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...and then they start an Engineering Degree 
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I worked for thomson last seeason as a hotel host.I got paid £60 a week plus all food, acom, lift pass etc. Was I complaining no it isnt about the money its about being able to ski everyday and living in the mountains. All this money was needed for was your own personal spending. Got loads of time and had a cool manager so only worked a 40hour week which was mainly morning and evenenings. The work got a lot easier as you get into a routine. 30minutes per room??I think therecord was 3 minutes and we would rarely spend more than 5minutes per room, howevr we did clean do the standard expected. The harder you work the quicker you get it done=more skiing.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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David@traxvax, When you're running a chalet with three people on staff and only 3½ rooms it's hardly surprising that yours have such free time available . . . it's hardly representative of the industry 
Spawn of Masque averaged about 55h/w last season with one of the mid sized TOs, but the first month was a bummer till they got themselves organised
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First month of the season is always hard - new to job, no routine, and the busiest period for Brit tour ops. Once you get yourself sorted out the hours drop, and you can get more time on the mountain.
That said, I'm bumming the season, so I get loads of time out on the snow.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I'm quite surprised at some of the comment and points on this thread. I opened it because 'chris 178' had an air of authenticity about his complaints, and who knows what kind of contract or arrangement he's involved in? Some contributors to this thread seem to feel he's either unassertive, whingeing unfairly ... or talking rubbish.
Let's take his points in good faith, just for the sake of exploring this further.
Elizabeth B, not sure where you get your figures from, but the very maximum value of a season's liftpass per week would be £50, and it's likely to be nearer £30 to £40. Remember that he's only getting use of it one day per week, so its value to him is way less than this. Why do you assume his employer is paying for equipment hire? I don't think his food would cost his employers anything like £40 per week.
Several posters have assumed that he can cut his working hours by working more efficiently, but his story seems to be that the employer is stretching his working hours to fit their demands exclusively. He implies that he's expected to work fixed hours. Who's to say that if he got jobs done quicker the employer wouldn't simply give him more to do?
Hat describes him as a "whinger". Knowing Hat's passion for the sport, how would he feel to be dropped in this situation?
It still reads like modern-day slavery to me!
What employment terms - hours, minimum wage etc.? - would apply to a hotel worker in a properly-established hotel in a ski resort?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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David Goldsmith, a slave doesn't have any choice - this guy does.
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David Goldsmith, can't tell you exact hours but the hotel I stay at gives its staff 2 days off per week, with roughly 8 hours woork per day, occasionally they may ask staff to work an extra day but they give them time off later in return
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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laundryman, For what it's worth I couldn't agree more. Some menial jobs may be expoitative and for some unfortunates there is little choice but 'Doing a Season' is not IMHO the same thing at all. If you don't like the pay/conditions/having to get up in the morning simple solution - don't do it. Without any knowledge of the facts to hinder me  I would be surprised if Chris178 was forced to make his living in this way through lack of alternative options.
David Goldsmith, From reading your posts, you can clearly see the difference between this and 'slavery' so my bet is you're just fishing ... Yes?
BTW have you ever looked at the economics of running a Stables? They are largely staffed by UNPAID teenage girls who work for free just for the pleasure of being around horses. Not slavery though, they can leave at any time.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Being a ski bum working for an operator is more than just skiing. It is a different way of life. The social aspect seems to be a huge part of the process.
I would liken it to those who want to go into further education; some prefer to do it from home, and some want to go away and have a life experience.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I think with all first time seasonaires, there is a case of the January blues. The weather is usually inclement, they usually find out that skiing/snowboarding is harder than it looks, they're not getting as much time on the mountain as they hoped, and often it's the first time that they've had to hold down a full time job.
Added to that, it's too early in the season for them to be known as regulars (and so get regulars prices) in the local fleshpots, or to have sorted out the various scams that can supplement their income, so it's no wonder that they're getting a little cheesed off.
I'm sure that it'll either get better for him, or he'll choose to come home early.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
I'm quite surprised at some of the comment and points on this thread. I opened it because 'chris 178' had an air of authenticity about his complaints, and who knows what kind of contract or arrangement he's involved in? Some contributors to this thread seem to feel he's either unassertive, whingeing unfairly ... or talking rubbish.
Let's take his points in good faith, just for the sake of exploring this further.
Elizabeth B, not sure where you get your figures from, but the very maximum value of a season's liftpass per week would be £50, and it's likely to be nearer £30 to £40. Remember that he's only getting use of it one day per week, so its value to him is way less than this. Why do you assume his employer is paying for equipment hire? I don't think his food would cost his employers anything like £40 per week.
Several posters have assumed that he can cut his working hours by working more efficiently, but his story seems to be that the employer is stretching his working hours to fit their demands exclusively. He implies that he's expected to work fixed hours. Who's to say that if he got jobs done quicker the employer wouldn't simply give him more to do?
Hat describes him as a "whinger". Knowing Hat's passion for the sport, how would he feel to be dropped in this situation?
It still reads like modern-day slavery to me!
What employment terms - hours, minimum wage etc.? - would apply to a hotel worker in a properly-established hotel in a ski resort? |
Hi David,
The lift pass will be given free by the lift company. In larger resorts reps will normally get all mountain passes as they may use skis as a means for visiting guests in far flung establishments (not fun when it is -20C and a storm is blowing - I've known many a rep who has spent the night on a hotel lobby sofa after getting stranded by the conditions). Ski hire will be given free by one of the tour operator's contractors. Obviously all this has a value, but not much. The lift operator knows that the staff need passes to do their jobs and knows they are not going to be spending all day on the lifts.
Chalet staff generally only get sector passes - this stops them getting lost on the other side of the mountain leaving hungry guests.
In theory chalet staff should get to ski from 11am to 3pm when working for a larger company... maybe later if they leave cakes baked the night before and a pot of coffee ready for the traditional 4pm tea. As some people have mentioned it is all about efficiency although maybe 'chris 178' has some kind of Dickensian employer which would not be surprising. Chalet staff also tend to get the biggest tips from guests and have the perk of eating proper food and having somewhat reasonable accomodation to sleep in (although not always as some chalet staff will sleep elsewhere) but they don't make money on Apres and LP/Ski Pack sales unless the rep cuts them in.
Reps and admin staff for the big TOs in big resorts like Courch or l'Alpe d'Huez may ski every little in a season. The transfer day is often 24 to 36 hours solid and may include two trips to an airport. Friday night will be check-out admin and going through the arrivals lists, then a 3am start Saturday to collect the first bus, down to the airport, wait around and coffee break (which would not be considered working time) then back to resort and possibly an afternoon run to the airport. Then you have ski packs to confirm, lift passes to collect and a trudge around the resort delivering lift passes.... the senior rep or resort manager will go right through the night into Sunday morning. You will then get into the rounds of welcome meeting, apres, sorting out the endless problems with accomodation, ski school etc. I would say a real 60 to 80 hour week from Christmas to the end of February is typical.
Your food costing is amusing and I agree, I don't think the TOs budget 40 quid per week even for chalet guest food including drinks. I can't remember the exact figures we used but they were not high and very tightly controlled by the accounts team. The budget for moving one guest from an airport to resort was 5 quid which gives you an idea of how tight things can be.
Why do people do it and keep coming back?
For a surprising number of staff this is the first step on a career in the tourism industry. Skiing is a very secondary motivation. A number of the directors and senior managers in Britains tour operators started out repping and they probably work harder than their resort staff during the season (which is one of the problems as they have little sympathy for "whingers" - it is the same mentality although for higher stakes in the big consultancies). After the ski season reps will take a 6 to 8 week break then start it all over again in Ibizia or Turkey. In three years you can be a resort manager and at least living in a small flat rather than a shared corridor or something and earning reasonable money.
The partying can be fantastic if this is your thing. The resort worker world is a bubble where outsiders such as billies (except very fit ones), SCGB reps etc are unwelcome. It is a world of excess, drink, sex, wild nights. It is a world that just doesn't exist back home except for Kate Moss and co and it can become very addictive.
Skiing, well if you blag a quiet resort you can ski every day of the season, even transfer day which is breaking one of the TO ten commandments but hey. You may go whole weeks without seeing a guest - it is a bit like one of those colonial outposts - our man in Engleberg. The problem is that if you are competent the TO will want to put you into a managerial role in a bigger resort and that is where your problems will begin.
Regarding employment terms - in France hotel staff are subject to the minimum wage and and 35 hour week legislation (you will need to look into the details of this which are quite flexible). Many British establishments in France don't conform to this which is a major source of conflict at the moment. However this is completely legal as the staff are on limited overseas contracts which is provided for by EU treaties. Also go to the free car parking in any big French resort and see the French season workers - bar staff etc who spend the winter season sleeping in their cars. Not something even a British TO would consider.
I tried to check Russells WTD information. The stuff I found on the EU website differs from what he quotes. They say an average 48 hour week over 4 months not 12 weeks and this may soon be extended to a year. Workers must have a minimum of 24 hours off in one week (I believe chalet staff and resort reps for companies such as Inhams, Thomson etc get this) and 11 hours elsewhere in the week. There are also a number of opt outs for the tourism industry so I suspect that the WTD directive is being complied with as is the minimum wage. I remember the TOs I worked for were very hot on compliance with regards to legislation. They are not very high minimums after all.
The bottom line is, if you want to get into the Tourist industry it is one route if you want to party and sleep with a lot of people it is another. If you want to ski or board, get a real job and save up to do a season or do contract work in the summer or find one of the niche TOs that enables you to do this.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| AxsMan wrote: |
BTW have you ever looked at the economics of running a Stables? They are largely staffed by UNPAID teenage girls who work for free just for the pleasure of being around horses. |
I thought they did it for the pleasure of being ridden by Argentinian polo players, maybe that is just Sussex stables?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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David Goldsmith, davidof, the figures I posted weren't what it would cost the TO, but what it would cost the individual if he decided not to work.....which is essentially their value to him.
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A cut in hours, social in the evening, skiing most days........Yes Please
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Dave Burt, I wouldn't trade places..........not enough time on the slopes. Save up and then go out for the season, now i could do that 
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davidof, loved your posting! Your words:
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| The problem is that if you are competent the TO will want to put you into a managerial role in a bigger resort and that is where your problems will begin. |
Ho, ho, ho!
[Santa, self-employed, no career structure]
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FAQ
) - Loads of people ask me what work I'm doing and are surprised when I say I'm not - just skiing 
. I was chatting to a lifty last season and she told me what she got paid (she was in company acomodation so got that, food, and a lift pass paid for) and was left with not much more than bug all at the end (a few hundred dollars). I reckon I can earn what many seasonaires do in a season by just working an extra few weeks so why would I want to work myself to the bone, missing out on skiing the pow when I want, having to get up with a gigantic hangover to do some work, etc, etc...
