 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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That doesn't look the kind of building that would sell a pie and beans.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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A year round tourist destination indeed - with summer visitors locked inside the Ptarmigan restaurant at the summit!
Does any other mountain operation anywhere else in the world forbid (and physically prevent) its summer visitors from leaving the top lift station, other than to get the lift back down?
I understand the reasons for it but wonder if the set up is unique.
Also, IMHO, a lovely retro design for the new building - wouldn't look out of place in the concrete jungle of a 1960's new town. See Google Images "Pasmore Pavilion" for further info... 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Does mention snowmaking...
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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^ Dont get me wrong : I love skiing off the back at Fort William.
However their annual skiers numbers are 20K.
Cairngorms usually closer to 200K skiers each winter (i.e 10x more).
The season is shorter and historically Fort William is an industrial town (rather than ski town).
For various reasons Cairngorm will always attract high skiers numbers.
All of which makes the lack of investment in uplift even more tragic and frustrating.
Reflects badly on Scottish skiing - especially as the other resorts generally dont suffer from weekend queues.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Mon 2-11-15 23:23; edited 1 time in total
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I worked on Cairngorm full-time through winter 1974-5 and part-time the following winter - 40 years ago.
The mountain had much higher uplift capacity in those winters than now, including two-stage chairlifts on both 'faces' of the mountain - the Cas and Ciste. From a skier's perspective the mountain is now dysfunctional in comparison. The proper reinstatement of chairlifts on the Ciste/West Wall is particularly important.
Unfortunately there was a 20-year period when snowfall was regularly very problematic on Cairngorm, lifts were decommissioned or left idle, and the mountain's operators now seem very risk-averse in terms of significant investment in new chairs and tows. The 9-mile distance between Aviemore and the mountain has always been a major issue for those with no transport. Last time I skied there was with my two daughters, we stayed in Glenmore/Cairngorm Youth Hostel, near the foot of the mountain, and had a rental car to get up there ... but that's not what you normally expect to use on a daily basis at a ski resort.
The fundamental 'join the dots' thinking has never emerged since the brilliant pioneers (notably Bob Clyde + Co.) ran the mountain and built the uplift from 1961 for the first couple of decades. I must admit I don't have the answers now.
There's discussion of the current situation on Winterhighland - see 'CML / Natural Retreats pre-planning drop in sessions Oct 26/27/28'
http://www.winterhighland.info/forum/read.php?2,169072,page=3
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Watching with interest moffatross and can't rule out popping up at some point  . I know it's not an exact science but how many days' skiing would you expect in an average winter?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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We ran lifts on 20 days last season, mountainaddict, albeit most of them using portable tows in the villages because our main tow wasn't safe to run. We've designed and installed brand new safety cut off systems on Lowther Hill and barriers around the machinery, fitted a bunded fuel tank and we hope to get the eroded beds on the main slope covered before the winter. I was on the hill with Anjo yesterday rust-proofing machinery and taking photos for the insurance risk assessment and it's looking good  We'll be building some fixed snow fencing and refitting the temporary plastic fencing over the next few weekends. Short answer though is we reckon we can do 25 days or more this season with the Lowther Hill slope lift running and as we've bought floodlights for the lifts in the village, we're likely to offer a lot more weekday evening sessions too.
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| mountainaddict wrote: |
. It all almost smacks of attracting cake hunting daytripping tourists to ride the funicular |
Really? Wake up and smell the coffee. Would a slice of cake go nicely with that?
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You know it makes sense.
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Absolute madness spending £15m on this.
From a skier perspective, I'd rather head to Glenshee or Nevis Range as frankly, the skiing is usually better. Both of those places have vastly less of a 'base' than Cairngorm currently has. Do I care? No, I'm there to ski. As long as I can grab a quick bite to eat and a quick warm up I'm happy. There's no way I'm going to spend time shopping if I can be spending time skiing, especially if I've forked out £35 for a lift ticket.
From a tourists perspective it makes no sense either. I'm usually in the Aviemore area for a few days every year at least. In that time I don't think I've driven up to the ski base outwith the ski season more than once or twice. Would I do so for a bit of cake and some 'retail therapy'? Nope! Why drive all that way when you can get a better choice of food and retail in Aviemore itself. I can see the novelty factor for tourists visiting the area for the first and possibly only time, but I can't see it attracting much repeat business.
Seems to me they are inconveniencing their repeat customers in winter in an attempt to attract more 'one off' customers in summer. The number of days that will work is also restricted as, lets be frank, who's going to go up there to sit and have coffee and cake in the cloud?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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The last time I was at Nevis Range most of the people using the gondola were foreign tourists on coach tours, I'm guessing this is the market for this new building.
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Poster: A snowHead
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What really frustrates me is that £15 million could build a gondola from Glenmore to Coire Cas (plus new base station?)
This would be a much better investment in both summer and winter.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Only been up in summer. Certainly heaving in the cafeteria and shop.
We walked up outside, got in via the fire exit (and had to sign in) for a slash and a coffee before getting out again (sign out) for the final walk to the summit, and then get back in again (sign in again) to buy a downlift only ticket. Yes, I understand it's a retail concern with 2 buildings linked with a private funicular, but trying to explain that to some German tourists who see it as a mountain hut was interesting.
The cake at Inshriach nursery is 1000x better than that of the mountainside caff. definitely worth a short bike ride out there.
Can't comment on how it's operated in winter, since I've never been.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| rjs wrote: |
| The last time I was at Nevis Range most of the people using the gondola were foreign tourists on coach tours, I'm guessing this is the market for this new building. |
Which works because of the views, and the fact you can freely walk around once out of the Gondola at the top. Neither the bottom or top stations for the Nevis Gondola have anything but the most minimal retail space. People go for the views (arguably better at Nevis than Cairngorm), not to go shopping. It's also fairly easy for tour companies to do a 'drive by' stop for Nevis Range as it's just off the main tourist route up Glencoe-Ft.William-Great Glen...
@Haggis_Trap Gondola would make sense in so many ways...
1) Shorter drive in
2) Lower more sheltered location so could keep ski area open if snow shuts the current access road.
3) Could develop mountain bike and/or walking trails from Cas down to gondola base station (a ski run from Cas down to Glenmore would be awesome).
4) Less visually intrusive and less complicated design needed if they also want to put in retail.
Realistically it would probably cos more than £15m as they'd still likely have to at least renovate the current Cas building (although they could easily move the ski hire etc to the gondola base station, freeing up space). Also doesn't address the general 'uplift problems' once on the mountain.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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^ nail on head. in my mind gondola is actually more beneficial in summer than winter ?
would bring repeat custom from hikers, bikers and sightseers - in a way that the funicular with its "closed system" can never achieve.
which of course makes the business profitable year round and thus able to justify investing in the snowsports long term.
| Quote: |
| Why don't they care?? Shock |
I think the problem is that if you consider the business (on its own) then skiing perhaps isn't what the bean counter consider easy profit ?
Certainly the investment in piste bashers / staff / operating costs is quite high compared to the summer operating costs. Without doubt the decision not to invest in new uplift is a deliberate strategy from the management. Ever since the funicular was built in 2001 they have (wrongly) tried to focus on summer trade. However if you look at the wider benefit to local economy and businesses then the skiing is utterly vital. Without snowsports Aviemore would be deserted from November -> May.
The frustrating thing is that Aviemore, being a large outdoor tourist town, gives the lift operator a captive market. No matter how poor the product people will turn up. Cairngorm currently gets 200K skier days in a reasonable winter. In theory that makes them Scotlands most popular ski resort. However with proper longer term investment in uplift and snow making I am sure they could easily double that ?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Considering 25 million has already been wasted on the funicular, wouldn't this 15 million be better spent at the other ski resorts to even up the funding each area gets?
I know 4 other ski resorts got funding recently, but the combined total of this was a lot less than 15 million and way short of what has been wasted on the funicular.
Considering that Glen Coe and Glenshee are using this funding to improve the lift infrastructure this summer and next summer, it would be amazing to see what they could do with 15 mil. Glenshee will have a new chairlift for this winter(if finished on time) and another new chairlift next winter. That will be 3 new chairlifts in 6 years
Cairngorm Mountain has had more than enough public money, and they have not made it work for skiing. Best for people to ski the other resorts and give them your money. At least you know they will re invest it back into skiing.
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^ For reason described above Cairngorm will always get a large % of visitors / skier days - and thus largest slice of the pie.
However as you observe the money might be better spent elsewhere. The real salt in the wound is that money invested in Cairngorm is actually damaging the ski industry as a whole - as in my mind this money has actually caused Scotlands largest ski area to continually diversify away from snowsports.
Cairngorm / HIE seem hell bent and blinkered to ensure the funicular is a success - even if this happens to be at the expense of the ski area.
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@yuppie I'm pretty sure the money is not 'public money' but is a proposed investment by the new management company behind Cairngorms (Natural Retreats). I'd love to see their actual business plan detailing how they expect to see a return on the £15m, because I find it difficult to see how they will ever recoup it with the current proposal. I suppose we should welcome the investment, it's just it seems to do little or nothing for our core interest i.e. skiing.
If it was public money, I fully agree, the other ski areas would be likely to spend it 'more sensibly'.
Edit: On looking more closely I think it could be 'public money', but I can only see £6m mentioned in that respect, not £15m. Either way, I'd not give them a penny in public money unless it at least in part addressed the snowsport issues.
Last edited by After all it is free  on Tue 3-11-15 15:43; edited 1 time in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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^ The original cost for new base building in Coire Cas was 5-6 million.
HIE were to provide 4million as a long term loan / grant.
Latest estimate for the plans on display is 15 million (or more).
Who is funding this, and based on what business case, I have no idea....
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Slightly off topic, you can still get a Nevis season pass at the early bird discount price until the 9th November.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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In their sketch one of the cars looks awfully like a Bentley so you can see what the target demographic is......
I quite like the building but it is obviously a criminal waste of money without a comparable investment in uplift. It would seem that of the 15 million, 5 on the new base building and the rest of uplift/Glenmore Gondola would be a better bet for the future of snowsports in the area but someone has obviously run the numbers and decided that this is the best return on investment, which is, I assume, all Natural Retreats give a poo-poo about?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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For 2 season in a row I have not made a single trip because despite having the most snow sure area they also do the least with it.
I don't really want to spend £35 quid to ski one side of the mountain. They know that they only need to do is to have a good xmas and easter and be jammed at the weekends to make their cash so they don't care about the more advanced skiers who want to ski the Ciste, it's a much better side to ski along with a run off the summit is the only reason now I would go to cairngorm.
I usually try and ski as much as I can in Scotland which can be as much as 12+ days on good years. They just seem to be catering to the couple of times a season families. My advice is go elsewhere they deserve your cash more than this lot.
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You know it makes sense.
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| mountainaddict wrote: |
And isn't it a bit odd to build a flat-roofed daylodge up a mountain that is prone to heavy snowfall?? I hope they've factored in the weight of 10 feet of wet snow....  |
It does get awfully windy up the Cairngorms so a flat roof may not be such a bad idea.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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It flies in the face of the ethos of the pioneers who set up the first winch tows, and imv, has been sliding downhill (not in the good way) since the award of national park status.
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Poster: A snowHead
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The really frustrating / crazy thing is that there is a substantial and sturdy stone cafe at the mid station (Shieling) which could be renovated for much less than these proposals..... It was deliberately shut down 10 years ago
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Why is there this ruling that people can't walk around at the top and how do they stop people? Seems incredible. Why did they spend all the money on the funicular with this in mind?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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It's a very delicate tundra-like environment up there which they don't want thousands of footfalls from tourists to destroy (no probs for those who hike up)
It was one of the conditions of getting the funi. built to limit access.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| madlondoner wrote: |
| Why is there this ruling that people can't walk around at the top and how do they stop people? Seems incredible. Why did they spend all the money on the funicular with this in mind? |
The "closed system" rules are reasonable - too many extra tourists tramping over the sub arctic tundra on the summit planet would quickly destroy it.
This is a fragile environment unique to the UK. Rules only apply in summer when there is no snow on ground and were condition of the EU funding.
However must be frustrating for summer visitors (even though there are limited guided walks to the summit).
This is just another reason why the funicular was the wrong lift to build in 2001....
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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always thought the funicular was the yugo zastava of uplift. they are forever digging out the tunnel. not that it matter though as the road is usually closed...
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FAQ
