 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Perhaps a clue in the title, I don't have a beacon thing.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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30cm away? Better to turn it off, or airplane mode.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Good post, but belongs in off piste. Also there is a thread already loosely talking about it - ill link it to there 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@PaulC1984, thanks
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Interesting comments from Joe Vallone:
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I recently attended a private seminar with BCA for industry professionals and a few dealers etc. The Protocol recommended from BCA is 20 cm for a transmitting transceiver and 50 cm for a searching transceiver.
the 30cm rule or 1 foot rule being suggested might not be enough, go with 50 to be sure and practice your searches with your arm extended. Better yet, keep your electronics in your pack so you are almost guaranteeing yourself a 50cm cushion.
In my own ongoing testing with interference "noise" I have noticed 50 CM is a nice padded recommendation for a receiving transceiver, (IE) searching.
In all my tests which are limited and far from professional I have found that the BCA tracker 2 in this video received the most noise while around the Iphone 4s, more so then any other phone and or transceiver combination.
Other things to be aware of are bluetooth devices and cameras, etc. Folks are wearing Chest mount cameras which might or might not be directly on top of their transceivers depending on how they wear them.
Also to be of huge concern are electronically heated gloves, such as the BD and OR gloves now available. You can not perform a search while using these gloves with a transceiver in your hands.
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Wow, never thoughts of that @clarky999, but that makes sense. im glad im a human radiator and dont need any heated gloves/boots
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Makes you wonder about radio (battery not frequency), Ipods etc too - I guess they are pretty low power in comparison
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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the Lou Dawson piece linked from the same article has some interesting insights.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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My watchis connected (bluetooth) to my phone so I thought, "phone in pack, any texts I can read off my watch" but would that affect the signal too?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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b]@galpinos[/b], you could always try it out in your kitchen.
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| galpinos wrote: |
| My watchis connected (bluetooth) to my phone so I thought, "phone in pack, any texts I can read off my watch" but would that affect the signal too? |
Or you could ignore texts since its your holiday
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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Or you could ignore texts since its your holiday
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When there's a few of you skiing in different groups and you want to meet for lunch or when there are childcare issues it's a handy way to keep in touch. I obviously also need to see if anyone is "liking" by tweets or whether I have any new followers on Instagram on the back of the awesome selfies I'd posted that morning.......
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Jonpim, The first Bluetooth development kits came with a lot of documentation, one of the documents described all the recorded ways that electronic equipment interfered with aeroplane navigation systems that were in use at the time. I realize that common sense and Google is better than any scientific study but I have always turned off my phone when on a plane.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| galpinos wrote: |
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Or you could ignore texts since its your holiday
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When there's a few of you skiing in different groups and you want to meet for lunch or when there are childcare issues it's a handy way to keep in touch. I obviously also need to see if anyone is "liking" by tweets or whether I have any new followers on Instagram on the back of the awesome selfies I'd posted that morning....... |
haha pmsl
skiing is my one place to escape from the world, so the phone most certainly goes off
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@Jonpim, I don't think those other scenarios are directly relevant, because direction/range finding is not the same thing as data transmission.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Perhaps focusing on avoiding getting buried in an avalanche would be a better way of saving your life. 
Getting rescued means you have already made some major mistakes.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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@laundryman, Richard Feynman: wonderful guy.
He also said: "It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how smart you are. If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong."
In this case, i'm not sure anyone has actually done the experiment. But i'm quite happy to be proven wrong.
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I've got to say I've changed my mind a bit on mobile phones. Having a phone switched on can reduce the time to make a call to the rescue services given the boot times of smartphones but if you are doing a multiday tour with no option to recharge then having a working phone is probably more important.
I always used to ski with mine off but that was when beacons like the M2 and Arva 9000 really didn't like them much. Smartphones are probably worse than old mobiles - the screens really seem to be a factor in interference but modern beacons are much less affected by RF interference.
It is a good idea to be aware of the issue if you are searching... should the search site be kept free of go-pros, phones, radios etc? Probably yes. I don't believe that a victim having a phone that is on will affect the outcome of the rescue even if it is sitting next to his beacon.
Steilhang knows a lot about GSM design and has provided some very interesting information in the past and might be able to shed more light on smartphone interference.
It is obviously not the 900MHz or 1800MHz transmit frequencies that are causing problems but the rest of the circuitry and the interference will be at a very low power. Obviously a transceiver that runs on a few AAA cells for 200+ hours isn't transmitting at a high power either but in the testing I've done a transceiver will always be preferred to some other electronics such as a go pro or phone. A phone can be detected at around 30cm, a beacon at 40 meters. That's 100x the distance and given the square rule we are talking about a significant difference in power on the 457KHz band.
As Sarge says quite rightly, there are probably other more important things to focus on and if you are in an avalanche situation looking for people it is all a bit of a fustercluck anyway.
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I wonder how phones will affect the jetforce avalanche packs as the are entirely electronically controlled...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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The problem is that the mobile phones are simply not tested for interference with avalanche beacons. There is no EMI interference standard which says they should not interfere with the 457kHZ band. People saying phones are OK at 30cm are just presenting anecdotal, rather than scientific, evidence. Obviously each and every phone model is different - they also use different chip sets / reference clocks / antennas / LCD screens etc. So just because an iphone is ok doesn't mean that a samsung will be <etc>. Nor does it mean that your other electronic devices (GPS / tablet / GoPro) you might have in your pack are going to be ok either.....
The main problem certainly seems to be that whilst searching a mobile phone in your pocket *could* cause unexpected results.
Especially in the initial search phase when trying to pick up a weak signal at distance. If you are a victim then the phone would probably have little effect.
A real rescue situation is not the place to find this out ? Therefore the best practise and advice has to be that mobile phone are best kept turned off.
Not least because it also saves the battery life in the cold (should you need to make an emergency call).
My feeling is that modern digital beacons are much better (due to to the improved capability of digital filters and more accurate oscillators).
However having seen old style ortovox F1s be badly affected by EMI interference from phones I know the problem is indeed "real".
Another issue, is that cable cars and chair lifts with electrical power supplies certainly do cause significant EMI interference with avalanche beacons. Near such a lift then it is likely your beacon will go hay-wire whilst searching (upto a 40-50m distance of the cables). To my mind this is more dangerous than the potential for mobile phone EMI issues.
FWIW : I work in electronics and have spent a reasonable amount of time working on EMI emissions standards for both mobile phones and automotive. Most engineers don't understand the standards or test procedures. Indeed test are often bent to meet a defined goal - rather than obey the spirit of law (think VW and the emissions scandal.... it is a real can of worms)
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Fri 30-10-15 9:56; edited 2 times in total
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@Casa Alfredino, I doubt there's any significant issue unless any of the control paths are wireless...
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@davidof,
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| Steilhang knows a lot about GSM design and has provided some very interesting information in the past and might be able to shed more light on smartphone interference |
Nope, sorry. Can of worms really. I got out of the handset side round about the time the first 3G iPhone came out. I can imagine that the Apps processor and the display add a whole bunch of new sources of potential interference, though I still have a hard time believing this affects a beacon in Tx mode.
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You know it makes sense.
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This is worth watching for many reasons but it also covers the whole mobile phone issue AND other metallic objects. This is free to watch until Friday this week.
EDIT: Sorry - realised the link could look a bit dodgy - it is a presentation by Henry's Avalanche Talk.
https://plus.google.com/u/0/events/cbgth4t41mm68s7a262kooc8fto
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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So we're calling avalanche transceivers "beacons" now?
Well, when your transceiver is in beacon tx mode, it wont be interfered with by your phone.
Might be a different story in Receive mode, but I doubt it.
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FAQ
