 Poster: A snowHead
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Hi all
Can one of you guys enlighten me on skier ability v the different ski stiffness?
I am a steady intermediate who can cruise pretty must any piste on the mountain. Last year I started really getting into carving, but not yet got the hang of it completely. I am 6"4 and 18.5 stone.
A few years ago when starting to ski (about 8 years ish) I picked up a set of atomic beta ride 10.20 from a friend of a friend who was a ski instructor. At the time I knew zip about skis (not that I know a lot now either), but basically they were to leave in my ski apartment with the aim of not hiring each time I got there.
I got around nicely on them and as I got better I really started enjoying skiing on them. Last time I skied on them I was an early-middle intermediate. On a couple of runs when I got some speed up, I really felt the ski springing me out of a corner. It was awesome.
Now that the apartment is sold and the only place I ski now is les melezes in Tignes (where equipment is free to hire), I never use these skis anymore. But the ski I get at melezes are intermediate skis and I never get that Spring feeling when I turn.
So my thinking is because I am an intermediate skier, but carrying a fair bit of timber, I need a more advanced ski to compensate for my weight. Is this true? I have heard people talk about loading up the skis so they Spring you out of the corner as you exit it. I am assuming that the more advanced skis are stiffer and take more loading. If I am skiing on a softer ski, with my weight, will if have the flex strength to unload each time?
Hope that makes sense.
Cheers
Smag
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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HI- we like les Melezes too, especially Jam- and the other staff who help him run the place.
I'm not an expert but hey this is the interweb. I think you might be right re your immersive weight!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Part of the skis makeup is its stiffness, you tend to find more advanced skiers have greater leg strength and thus gain advantages from a stiffer ski, however weight also makes a difference so you may well find that a higher performance ski works better for you than the typical ski that a sports shop would normally give you based on your experience.
By the way I'm somewhat heavier than you (but have been skiing over 40 years) and whilst I wouldn't class myself as any sort of expert I ski on Head GS (race dept) skis, they are both heavy and really stiff but for me they work really well and are the best skis I've ever had, horrifying anyone who knows what they are doing I teamed them with Rossignol Soft 1 ski boots, which means I rely almost entirely on leg strength for control (normally you would use a much stiffer boot for a race ski) but I can live wit that for probably the best fitting boots I've ever had
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The "spring" you get from the ski will have more to do with the materials & construction than the stiffness of the ski. Most "intermediate" pistey jobbies (that's a technical term there!) are fairly basic models and lack the makeup to give you that feedback.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Thanks guys. Are there any signs to look out for in terms of getting the right stiffness (pauses in anticipation of some of the imminent responses) 
Can a ski be too stiff?
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@smagsmith, if you can't bend it when skiing, yes.
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@smagsmith, the best approach is to try before you buy. It might well be with your stats that conventional wisdom will not apply. But you don't want to find yourself with £800 worth of kit that doesn't work for you.
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I am not looking to buy any skis at the moment as I only get 1 week a year. I am just trying to work out what I should be hiring. At the moment I have a choice between taking my own old expert skis, or hiring the usual intermediate I get each year.
I have come to the conclusion that I should take my old skis to a fridge and test them out. I have not skied on them in 4 years so the fond memories I have of them may turn out to be misplaced now. If I enjoy them As much now, then maybe I should be looking to hire a more advanced ski when out in Tignes.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Many ski shops will have so called VIP skis, these are typically better quality skis that have been tried but not purchased, you pay a premium to hire such skis but you can often hire a different set each day to find a pair that works for you.
Worth telling the shop you have been very happy with your old skis and are looking for something similar
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If your ski hire is free why not just pop back every could of days and try some different skis? Avoid the really busy times of the day and the hire guys are often just sat around looking bored and in my experience generally happy to have someone different to talk to so happy to discuss what you did/didn't like about a pair of skis and pick some different ones for you based on your comments.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Bending skis is a function of weight, speed and angulation. Expert skis tend to be designed for people who like skiing with a lot of speed and angulation so need to be appropriately stiff. It makes sense that bigger skiers who are not so adept at speed and angulation can still cope with a stiffer ski.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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That is my logic too @jedster,
@Mjit, no problem changing gear every day if I want to. They are very helpful guys.
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Don't forget your boots and their flex as well - they need to flex and spring as well. Have you changed / not changed boots during this period? What flex are they?
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You know it makes sense.
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@mishmash, I have Head edge+10 boots that I have had for about 6 years. So skied with them on my old skis and the ones I hire now. They are 70/80 flex. Not exactly sure what that level of flex means, but the reviews say for intermediate - advanced intermediate.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| smagsmith wrote: |
| They are 70/80 flex. |
That's a very soft boot for someone your size. I suspect you'd easily flex it forwards, perhaps too easily. Have you ever tried other boots?
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Poster: A snowHead
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| smagsmith wrote: |
| They are 70/80 flex. |
That's a very soft boot for someone your size. I suspect you'd easily flex it forwards, perhaps too easily. Have you ever tried other boots? |
I was told the rough rule was body weight in kg x between 1-1.5 subject to experience/dynamics ; plus you will have eventually (life of plastic as well as use) got through the flex in them by now I suspect. I would start with new boots, looking more at a "progressive flex" (not a race boot) min 110 flex. Plenty out there, good boot fitting is worth it (if you do go take your old boots along, a good fitter will find them useful) ! Difficult if not impossible to demo so you wont really get the understanding until you are in them. The boots will amplify all that is good and bad about what you like about the skis you are trying.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| mishmash wrote: |
| rob@rar wrote: |
| smagsmith wrote: |
| They are 70/80 flex. |
That's a very soft boot for someone your size. I suspect you'd easily flex it forwards, perhaps too easily. Have you ever tried other boots? |
I was told the rough rule was body weight in kg x between 1-1.5 subject to experience/dynamics* ; plus you will have eventually (life of plastic as well as use) got through the flex in them by now I suspect. I would start with new boots, looking more at a "progressive flex" (not a race boot) min 110 flex. Plenty out there, good boot fitting is worth it (if you do go take your old boots along, a good fitter will find them useful) ! Difficult if not impossible to demo so you wont really get the understanding until you are in them. The boots will amplify all that is good and bad about what you like about the skis you are trying. |
edit * for flex - i.e. if you weigh 80 Kg x 1 = Flex 80 etc - remember , Flex is not a standard (like DIN) and varies from brand to brand.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@smagsmith, ultimately the answer to the title of your post is that there is no reason why not. However, as per the central theme in the replies the skier may struggle to get the most of them at best and at worst struggle with them - on account of their stiffness, technical make up, etc. Now, given you get on really well with your Atomics it seems entirely logical to me to stick with them. Except that, given their age, I'd be thinking they are reaching the end of their natural life, especially given you are a big bloke who clearly appreciates a bit of a life and skis at a decent lick. So, easy thing to do is to take them out, use them and also show them to the shop and tell them you want a ski as good as that. Try what they've got and if you get something that matches or up advances on what you've got, you have the option. I wouldn't be giving up skis I felt were "awesome" in a rush though equally ski technology has advanced and they won't last forever, so you need to be thinking of a replacement as well.
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Thanks for the insight into the boot flex. I only ski 1 week a year so they have not had a massive amount of use. But I was wondering about the flex in them. They are really comfy and I never get any pains, so I would be reluctant to swap them, but if they are holding me back by being too soft, then maybe a new pair is the way forward. How can I tell if they are too soft? Is there a test I can do to check, or a sign to look out for when I am skiing that they are too soft?
Mrs smag will not be happy if this thread leads me to a new pair of skis and a new pair of boots. I will just have to blame you lot
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| smagsmith wrote: |
Thanks for the insight into the boot flex. I only ski 1 week a year so they have not had a massive amount of use. But I was wondering about the flex in them. They are really comfy and I never get any pains, so I would be reluctant to swap them, but if they are holding me back by being too soft, then maybe a new pair is the way forward. How can I tell if they are too soft? Is there a test I can do to check, or a sign to look out for when I am skiing that they are too soft?
Mrs smag will not be happy if this thread leads me to a new pair of skis and a new pair of boots. I will just have to blame you lot |
Are you having to buckle them tighter and tighter to get the same rebound/spring? that is often a sign for me that something needs to be done.
Re : comfort, if you have liked a particular last (Atomic, Sally, Technica etc ) without have in any work , it's worth trying to stick with it - you should try and work out if its a 98 mm , 100m, 103 mm last (for width) - goggle research is your friend here BTW) - and then go a try a new, stiffer version in a shop and give it really good flex when inside it to feel the rebound.
expecting some of the resident boot experts to chime in - I'm strictly amateur!!
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these are the bad boy
http://www.epicski.com/products/head-edge-10-boots
The more I think about it, the more I think they dont spring me back up when I stand in them and flex. I need to go and get them out of the loft and try them on. I am buckling them more each time I use them. i just thought that that was the fact the plastics was stretching over the years ( like a pair of well worn in trainers).
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| smagsmith wrote: |
these are the bad boy
http://www.epicski.com/products/head-edge-10-boots
The more I think about it, the more I think they dont spring me back up when I stand in them and flex. I need to go and get them out of the loft and try them on. I am buckling them more each time I use them. i just thought that that was the fact the plastics was stretching over the years ( like a pair of well worn in trainers). |
Combination of the liner packing out and you getting more aggressive/dynamic in your flex.
I would likely start with some new boots and demo up some decent skis on your next holiday - you would be mad to buy the skis 1st of new boots were in the offing.
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I had better start looking at some new boots then.... MMMMM new boots ( Drooling Smag)
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Your skis with 1 weeks use per year won't be knackered. Update your boots and then see how the skis feel (they will feel completely different). And get your boots professionally fitted - 18.5 stone is a helluva lot to be loading into a poorly fitting boot. If you go to Bicester you'll find that CEM is on the 'ample' side too. 
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I stumbled across a Salomon ski testing station at Whistler a few years back. I spent two days trying loads of different skis. They are so very different! The expert skis felt dead because they were far too stiff for me, despite me thinking I was Franz Klammer at the time. It's a bit like these people who drive 200mph sports cars that are useless in most common driving situations.
I'm tall and heavy, like yourself, but you really need quite an aggressive ski style with muscles and fitness to match if you are going to make use of very stiff skis. I eventually settled for some hybrid skis. I've no real idea what it means but the salesman talked me into it and they seem to work. They are responsive and light in tight turns and low speeds yet don't wobble at high speed which is what I want.
I've had friends who've bought expert boots and skis for vast amounts of money and then realised they are far too uncomfortable and taxing for recreational skiing. There's lots of great advice on various threads on here but I'd strongly suggest trying before you buy.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@irie, the skis in question would have been around 8 years old already when OP acquired them. Rather a dated design by today's standards.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| cameronphillips2000 wrote: |
| ...I spent two days trying loads of different skis. They are so very different! The expert skis felt dead because they were far too stiff for me, despite me thinking I was Franz Klammer at the time. ... |
This. In my opinion you're completely nuts of you spend that sort of money without trying stuff out. Different models are different.
I'd add...
Whilst the dead weight of a fat learner may serve to bend an expert ski, it's hardly the same as the dynamic forces applied by an advanced correct-weight skier. In any case that's looking at only one factor. Modern skis have vibration control stuff which again is tuned to the rider's ability and weight. Riding an expert ski at novice speeds, at best you would not get the benefit of the design or technology you're paying for. I'd get the right tool for the job: that's the most fun thing to ride, and you will progress far quicker on it.
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| philwig wrote: |
| Whilst the dead weight of a fat learner may serve to bend an expert ski, it's hardly the same as the dynamic forces applied by an advanced correct-weight skier. In any case that's looking at only one factor. Modern skis have vibration control stuff which again is tuned to the rider's ability and weight. Riding an expert ski at novice speeds, at best you would not get the benefit of the design or technology you're paying for. I'd get the right tool for the job: that's the most fun thing to ride, and you will progress far quicker on it. |
This.
Whilst the weight of the skier is undoubtedly relevant, you have the potential to generate far larger forces (g-forces, centripetal faces, call it what you will) if you make good, grippy turns, and this is what the skis will be designed to do. If you're not bending the ski by making decent turns it doesn't matter how much you weigh (within reason). If you don't yet have the skills to bend the ski by turning perhaps choose something a bit softer will will be (a) less thing to ski on, and (b) easier to develop the skills to bend it by the turning forces you generate.
To go back to the boots question, if you boots are so soft that they collapse underneath you when you do generate turning forces, you're not going to have good control of your turn shape and speed.
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You know it makes sense.
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| philwig wrote: |
| cameronphillips2000 wrote: |
| ...I spent two days trying loads of different skis. They are so very different! The expert skis felt dead because they were far too stiff for me, despite me thinking I was Franz Klammer at the time. ... |
This. In my opinion you're completely nuts of you spend that sort of money without trying stuff out. Different models are different.
I'd add...
Whilst the dead weight of a fat learner may serve to bend an expert ski, it's hardly the same as the dynamic forces applied by an advanced correct-weight skier. In any case that's looking at only one factor. Modern skis have vibration control stuff which again is tuned to the rider's ability and weight. Riding an expert ski at novice speeds, at best you would not get the benefit of the design or technology you're paying for. I'd get the right tool for the job: that's the most fun thing to ride, and you will progress far quicker on it. |
I didn't spend a penny - ski testing stations are free.
There's so much more to it than stiffness. Weight of ski, length, width, side cut. Experts doesn't always mean fast and stiff either. Some want short light skis for very quick turns or jumps. Some want to ski backwards, other want powder skis. There is a big difference between racer and expert, although many in the industry have yet to realise it......
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@irie, the boots were new with one week per year, the skis were second hand and quite well used by an expert before I had them. They still look in good nick though.
@rob@rar, boots don't collapse, but are fairly easy to flex to the max standing in them on the carpet at home
Going back to my original point. The only skis that have given me that springing feeling as I exit a turn at speed are my old ones. I could only assume this was because they are stiffer than the more modern stuff I have been skiing on in recent years.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| smagsmith wrote: |
@rob@rar, boots don't collapse, but are fairly easy to flex to the max standing in them on the carpet at home |
They'll be a little bit stiffer in the cold compared to indoors, but if you can fully flex them just while standing still I think they're going to be very soft when you get the additional forces when making turns. I'd prioritise looking at new boots (and talking to a good boot fitter) before looking at new skis.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| under a new name wrote: |
| @irie, the skis in question would have been around 8 years old already when OP acquired them. Rather a dated design by today's standards. |
Maybe so, but he likes them so should do the boot thing first so that he can see exactly what new boots do for his skiing with his old skis. Change one thing at a time.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| I'd prioritise looking at new boots (and talking to a good boot fitter) before looking at new skis. |
+1
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I took my skis to castle ford on Sunday and really enjoyed using them. I had a few strange looks as they do look a bit dated as they are long and narrower than modern skis, but I did not care.
I did find myself thinking more about my boots thanks to the above comments. I did some flexes and they seemed OK. I watched a YouTube video on flex and I think mine or on the soft side, but are not too soft. What I did notice was I was getting quite a bit of heal lift. Are there any fixes for that or is it just time to get some new boots?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| smagsmith wrote: |
| What I did notice was I was getting quite a bit of heal lift. |
Do you mean that while skiing your heels were lifting away from the footbed in the boot?
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Yes, exactly that
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I also then started trying to pull my foot out of the boot whilst standing in line for the lift. It would not come out, but I could lift the heel a couple of cm up off the bed
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
I also then started trying to pull my foot out of the boot whilst standing in line for the lift. It would not come out, but I could lift the heel a couple of cm up off the bed
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The boots are too big. You can do a few things to help (stick some pads on the outside of the liner around the ankle, buy new thicker liners, etc) but boot fitters tend to tell you it is pretty unsatisfactory and you should bite the bullet and buy some new boots. Likely the shell size was always a bit big but the liners have now packed out to reveal that.
I'm not a boot fitter though. If you PM CEM (solutions for feet) he might give you some advice
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Oh and I'd definitely sort that out before worrying about skis
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