Last year drove down to Alps in Mitsubishi Grandis and used Thule Easy Fit CU-9 104 snow chains which were very easy to fit and worked well. However, this year am considering driving in one hit and considering taking the Mercedes E Class estate to increase the average speed of the trip!! I am told though that rear wheel drive automatics are the worst possible vehicles to drive in snow (Mercedes has manual flappy paddles too). Just wondered if any snowhead has experience of merc estate in snow and which chains etc. The Grandis is more comfortable but speed a factor this year. Thanks for any advice offered.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
I had a lot of trouble getting chains onto my Bugatti Veyron, if that helps?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
I've done it three times in my 530d estate, so not a merc but also a reasonably powerful RWD auto estate with a manual shift ability. I've been fine. We use auto socks but have only needed them once. We've also had to push it out of a parking space at the end of a stay but once over the big build up of soft stuff we couldn't be bothered to dig it was fine. We do have winter tyres for it and use them in the UK too. I'd recommend those.
davidof, You need Spykes Spyders for the Veyron, friend of ours puts them on the one he keeps at his chalet Snowsartre, Easiest solution is to fit winter tyres onto the E class, (and carry chains which you will have to anyway)
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@lampygirl Thanks, but I don't think snow socks are legal in France when chains are indicated on signs. Not wishing to get winter tyres and wheels this year but will the following season as wish to venture beyond France.
@davidof I imagine that is a problem. What about the ski rack?
Great pair of videos. Anything sensible on rear wheel drive in snow cordially invited.
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How much time/speed advantage are you hoping to gain in the Merc over the Mitzi?
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@Snowsartre, I see Mercs and BMWs heading to the slopes all the time here. There is no discussion in German minds as to whether FWD or RWD is better or not, and my RWD Volvo estate never gave me any problem once I had the right tyres fitted. Same with all the faff about switching to winter tyres or chains, does not seem to be controversial over here at all, you just do it the same as everyone else does in Switzerland, Germany and Austria for starters!
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Mollerski wrote:
How much time/speed advantage are you hoping to gain in the Merc over the Mitzi?
This. Doesn't seem worth the aggro to me unless the MIT's struggles to get a steady 80mph cruise.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Snowsocks are legal in France had no issues using mine instead of chains and have no issues with police.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
We drive a 2500m round trip to Selva fairly regularly, it takes as long as it takes. Weather,traffic,tunnel determine journey times far more than the speed of the vehicle. Pretty much anything will cruise at 80/90mph these days, that's plenty enough hour after hour.
@Snowsartre, if you're still planning to stay in Chatel I'd advise you to check the location of your accommodation very carefully indeed if you intend to be driving without winter tyres or chains.
When chains are indicated, socks would not be ok. Snowsocks might work where there is not much snow, but it is a stud 'solution' for driving in alpine regions. Snowsocks are a partial solution, but not good for a prolonged use, and gets destroyed quickly when you hit asphalt ...
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
If you have a vehicle that won't cruise comfortably at 80 mph you've been sold a pup. and if the road is wet the limit is under 70 mph....
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Chain ... Chain .... Chain!
I got stuck in the snow in my BMW 7 series in Austria once...
By stuck I mean I could not get this mad rear wheel drive up the slightest of inclines needed to get out of the village.
They were just regular tyres I admit.
I had to buy a set of chains next morning to get out of the village, cost me £200 + hotel for the night.
I've still got the chains if anyone want to buy them cheap.
The Beemer has long gone.
You must carry a set of easy fit chains when you drive to the alps ..
90% of trips you wont need them if you are shod with winter tyres ...
But one day
R-E-S-P-E-C-T
Find out what it means to me!
Oh (sock it to me, sock it to me,
sock it to me, sock it to me)
I have four Mercedes supplied winter tyres with alloys I think they are 2013 E class model only done 250 miles on them , if they fit your merc then you can make me an offer if you are interested. collection only from Brighton.
When chains are indicated, socks would not be ok. Snowsocks might work where there is not much snow, but it is a stud 'solution' for driving in alpine regions. Snowsocks are a partial solution, but not good for a prolonged use, and gets destroyed quickly when you hit asphalt ...
Gendarme road block very happy to let me past with Snow socks in the snowmagedon on 27th Dec 2014 in the Houte Savoie on the climb for Flaine from the Cluses Autoroute turn off. Climbed for 25 mins no problem , c 1700m and 20km all on fresh settling snow. Went past the usual collection of spinning cars including a Range Rover. Was on Winter Nokians, Front wheel drive VW diesel automatic. Very happy with the socks thank you.
@mishmash, no 'socks' would have been even better with Nokian winters ...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
I've seen cars doing absolutely fine with socks in difficult conditions. But I also saw quite a few torn and abandoned after "snowmageddon ' (which was, incidentally, a very ordinary sort of snowfall and accurately forecast)
After all it is free
After all it is free
Last winter I was in Val D when there was over a metre of snow. My RWD Merc on winters drove down the valley and up to Tignes in 2 feet at times.
No problem in car parks either, I was utterly amazed. The snow was so deep it was up to lights and I had no skids, slides or stopping issues.
Best money I ever spent!
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So what have we learnt so far.........................
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mooney058 wrote:
@mishmash, no 'socks' would have been even better with Nokian winters ...
Nope because the Gendarme made me put an approved traction device on, hence the roadblock
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
mishmash wrote:
mooney058 wrote:
@mishmash, no 'socks' would have been even better with Nokian winters ...
Nope because the Gendarme made me put an approved traction device on, hence the roadblock
Anyways the point I was making was that Snowsocks on this occasion were recognised as approved by the Gendarmerie Brigade operating in the Arve valley. YMMV.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@mooney058, Have you ever tried driving in snow with socks on?, you clearly have not. I have used both and would be hard preesed to say there was any difference, the socks perform very well in very deep snow. If you start spinning the wheels when there is tarmac showing, then yes, you will shred them but you will also snap chains by doing this too.
In reply to the original post, I think it's more about which car you would rather drive rather than which is the quickest, on empty roads with no speed limits, the Merc would win, all you need is empty roads with no limits
Chains / socks on FWD covers your traction, steering and most of your braking, you'd need chains /socks on all 4 wheels to do that with RWD
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@tangowaggon, why would i need it if I use proper winter tyres? I have taken special winter driving courses, practised on frozen lakes with my club. Would you trust socks if you have to stop suddenly, you are certain they would stay on? Socks are a niche product you should keep in your garage/car if you are taken by surprise by the weather. Driving to the Alps is hardly a 'surprise' .....
Read the faq of those who,produce them .... Works for a short period of time ..... "of course tarmac driving is not recommended as it increases fabric wear very considerably. It's also crucial that you do not drive faster on tarmac than you would on snow, a maximum 30mph, preferably slower than this." .... "you do drive on tarmac, be very careful with your braking, so please adjust your speed accordingly. A large hole worn in one section only of an AutoSock is conclusive evidence of hard braking on tarmac" ....
By the way, have you noticed many locals using it? It is a niche product that would work for a short period of time and only with many "if" and "but".
On socks, I would follow Bear Griyll's advice - if you forgot/lost your crampons, put socks on your boots, it would help.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
mooney058 wrote:
@tangowaggon, why would i need it if I use proper winter tyres? I have taken special winter driving courses, practised on frozen lakes with my club. Would you trust socks if you have to stop suddenly, you are certain they would stay on? Socks are a niche product you should keep in your garage/car if you are taken by surprise by the weather. Driving to the Alps is hardly a 'surprise' .....
Read the faq of those who,produce them .... Works for a short period of time ..... "of course tarmac driving is not recommended as it increases fabric wear very considerably. It's also crucial that you do not drive faster on tarmac than you would on snow, a maximum 30mph, preferably slower than this." .... "you do drive on tarmac, be very careful with your braking, so please adjust your speed accordingly. A large hole worn in one section only of an AutoSock is conclusive evidence of hard braking on tarmac" ....
By the way, have you noticed many locals using it? It is a niche product that would work for a short period of time and only with many "if" and "but".
On socks, I would follow Bear Griyll's advice - if you forgot/lost your crampons, put socks on your boots, it would help.
What do you use/suggest in France to comply with the "must have fittedchains/socks or you will not pass" signs , especially when enforced by officials during storms - i.e. they would not accept your winter tyres only/ driving course certificate etc?
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
I had my mercedes e class estate in the alps last Christmas, driving back during the mini snowmageddon on the Saturday after Christmas.
I fitted a set of Dunlop wintersport 3d's (run flats that were previously fitted to my bmw f10 5 series) onto a set of old rims I bought from eBay, costing about £500 all in. I also took the same Wiesenthal snow chains that I had used with the same tyres the previous winter on the BMW.
On the way down and during the week, there was no real snow to speak of on the roads, just in the car parks, but no real challenge.
On the morning we were due to leave, it was snowing heavily whilst we were loading up the car, and by the time we were ready to leave, there was well over a foot of snow to get through. I thought it would be best to get the chains on before setting off, but try as I might I could not get them on. Even though they fitted the same tyres the previous winter, they just would not fit the merc. I felt such an idiot for assuming they would.
The snow was falling ever more heavily and getting deeper by the minute, and it felt like a now or never scenario, we rationalised that the valley floor would probably be clear and it was only around 10 miles back to the motorway, which would definitely be clear.
We set off gingerly in the merc, relying on the winter tyres to do their thing, and soon found ourselves navigating down the hairpin road from Valfrejus to Modane. The merc performed well, the grip was reassuring, the car would stop steer and accelerate well enough to build confidence. At some points we were up to the grill in snow, and the front end would go quite light, but keeping a steady pace saw us complete the descent with no major incidents. Uphill junctions took a little pre-planning, but nothing defeated the magic tyres.
The valley floor was not clear, nor was the autoroute ( think snow up to your knees on the carriageway) we could only manage about 20-30mph on the motorway but that was mainly due to traffic rather than lack of performance of the tyres. We passed a lot of people struggling to fit chains, I would have felt smug if I didn't feel such an idiot.
Anyway after Grenoble heading north the snow turned to rain and sleet and gave us filthy conditions all the way back to Calais. My conclusion is that a Merc w213 estate with winter tyres will surprise you with its snow capabilities, but I would not go without chains again (will be buying some of those Thule instant fit ones this winter) and will be checking they fit before we go.
My merc is a 2014 e220 with a manual gearbox btw. In a lot of ways it's a brilliant car for ski trips, the load space is huge, it's pretty economical, extraordinarily comfortable and safe. 4wd would be nice but the merc will eat up almost any road conditions you can throw at it, so long as you drive it sensibly
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
The first time we used socks was on the way to Soldeu, Andorra, we passed Toulouse with it raining and an outside temperature of 1'c, this soon turned to snow and we had to fit the socks before we got to Foix, about 60 miles short of Soldeu. We pulled over next to another car that had the driver already fitting one of his chains, we fitted the socks and drove off before the other driver had finished, completing the 60 mile journey on snow covered roads without problem, we have used the socks numerous other times and they are still in usable condition.
It would be interesting to repeat the snowdome test of winter vs summer tyres using winter tyres vs chains vs socks
Quote:
A large hole worn in one section only of an AutoSock is conclusive evidence of hard braking on tarmac" ....
You are just as likely to destroy a set of chains by hard braking on tarmac
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
mishmash wrote:
mooney058 wrote:
@tangowaggon, why would i need it if I use proper winter tyres? I have taken special winter driving courses, practised on frozen lakes with my club. Would you trust socks if you have to stop suddenly, you are certain they would stay on? Socks are a niche product you should keep in your garage/car if you are taken by surprise by the weather. Driving to the Alps is hardly a 'surprise' .....
Read the faq of those who,produce them .... Works for a short period of time ..... "of course tarmac driving is not recommended as it increases fabric wear very considerably. It's also crucial that you do not drive faster on tarmac than you would on snow, a maximum 30mph, preferably slower than this." .... "you do drive on tarmac, be very careful with your braking, so please adjust your speed accordingly. A large hole worn in one section only of an AutoSock is conclusive evidence of hard braking on tarmac" ....
By the way, have you noticed many locals using it? It is a niche product that would work for a short period of time and only with many "if" and "but".
On socks, I would follow Bear Griyll's advice - if you forgot/lost your crampons, put socks on your boots, it would help.
What do you use/suggest in France to comply with the "must have fittedchains/socks or you will not pass" signs , especially when enforced by officials during storms - i.e. they would not accept your winter tyres only/ driving course certificate etc?
Winter tyres + chains or stay in a hotel
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
I assume your Grandis has the 140 bhp VW diesel in it. If it does the real world difference in journey times between it and the Mercedes will be negligible.
You are just as likely to destroy a set of chains by hard braking on tarmac
I think that's true, though hard braking on snow is not such a clever idea, either. The destroyed socks I saw by the side of the road after Snowmageddon were completely destroyed - and there was no tarmac for miles around. They had been destroyed by driving on snow, that's for sure, possibly by wheel spin (too much revs). Chains are not all equal - some are much tougher than others - and any chains are vulnerable if you don't have them on right. I'd say that good chains, properly mounted, are far better than socks but a pair of socks that you can put on properly, quickly, is more use than a set of chains which you don't know how to use properly. People often leave it far too late to put on chains, either because they are scared stiff of trying or because they have undue faith in their winter tyres to go anywhere, on anything. You see so many people struggling with them in the most inappropriate places.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
I really don't know why cable chains aren't more popular in Europe. Cheap, easy to put on and provide real grip. They'll even drive on blacktop provided you keep speed under 30pmh. Above that it's fun to hear the beads ping off and rattle around your wheel.
We've had a 535D Touring until recently. I don't think big, heavy RWD cars are great in the snow. We live on a steep hill with a sharp bend at the bottom in the UK and on summer tyres it had to stay in the drive when there is snow and ice. Also big diesels produce so much torque it can be difficult to get them moving on even gentle inclines due to wheel spin.
We drove it to the Alps at Easter because we wouldn't expect snowy roads then (and had chain and socks in the boot just in case). In contrast to what Sue said, I tend to notice that the Audi market share seems much higher in ski resorts than it does in Geneva!
In short, if I was going in Dec/Jan/Feb I wouldn't go in a big RWD estate without winter tyres and would also carry chains. I'm sure some experienced alpine winter drivers would be able to cope on summers and chains but I wouldn't want to.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
jedster wrote:
@Snowsartre,
We've had a 535D Touring until recently. I don't think big, heavy RWD cars are great in the snow. We live on a steep hill with a sharp bend at the bottom in the UK and on summer tyres it had to stay in the drive when there is snow and ice.
With suitable tyres no problem - drove to Alps in my 525i previously and the biggest challenge was a very steep climb to a challet in Alphach - no issues at all on pirellis sottozero. Small car with summer tyres would be equaly rubbish on snow/black ice! I see many fellow BMW drivers in Belgium on snow in winter who are clueless and think that the best way to get grip is to spin the summer wheels like mad ..... there is no remedies for being stupid and then blaming it on a car.
And I'm sure there are not that many 'experienced alpine winter drivers' driving on summer tyres in winter
After all it is free
After all it is free
As the Mercedes probably does not have room for a pony, I would stick to the Mitsubishi
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Quote:
Small car with summer tyres would be equaly rubbish on snow/black ice!
I'm not saying it would be good but weight definitely matters in snow and ice. A lot actually.
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jedster wrote:
Quote:
Small car with summer tyres would be equaly rubbish on snow/black ice!
I'm not saying it would be good but weight definitely matters in snow and ice. A lot actually.
What matters in snow and ice is traction! Weight affects car's handling and traction as well. For some situations it would actualy be better having more weight on the axle that drives the car - to get more grip and traction in a deep snow for example.
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