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Which transceiver?

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Following recent events and discussions on here, I've decided it's about time I purchased my own transceiver and started skiing with one all the time. ALthough up to now I would always hire one if going for a full day off piste, I constantly nip off the side of the piste, under chairs etc without kit and without really giving it much thought...

So any suggestions and opinions would be well received please. Bearing in mind I am currently (and unfortunately) a holiday skier of 2 to 3 weeks per year, so practice will take place at the start of each trip, and ease of use will be key.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
You and me bothbeanie1, we were chatting to a friend who lives next door to a search and rescue guy and his avalanche dog in the Grand Massif. Our friend got the Otovox transceiver and practised in the summer (they were in the sale) and was surpried to see a helicopter hover above their garden. The pilots were on a summer jolly and picked up the signal and went to investigate.

So far so good for the Otovox but we are currently hiring and waiting for the 'Star Trek' transceivers to come out late next year. The ones with the LCD screens.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
beanie1,

if you want the easiest unit to use gat a DTS tracker from BCA, it allows a direct flux line search (the curved line of the radio wave) and is robust and reliable, we used to see a lot of ortovox products back with faults including brand new ones fresh out the bos that just did not work....not the ideal for a safely product.

I saw a report a couple of years back about two kids age 12 & 14 who found a friend in a snowmobilling accident in canada with the tracker
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beanie1, Serious health warning. A transciever will NOT make you safer. It will mean your body (alive or dead) will get found. Invest in some offpiste/avalanche/snow analysis training too.
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Quote:

DTS tracker from BCA


I have been looking into this, and Noah's Arc are supplying them at cost of £180 for safety reasons, although their shovel and probe seem very expensive. If you are a Ski Club GB member the Lockwoods will do a good 20% discount on a package if you enter your membership code at point of purchase.

The thing that holds me back is owning something I don't really know how to use effectively, and I'm not sure how to address this from the UK as a 2 - 3 week holiday skier.


Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Sat 7-01-06 22:10; edited 2 times in total
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You'll need to Register first of course.
Cheapest transceiver for yourself and DTS Tracker for your ski buddy.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Out here, the Ortovox F1 is still the favoured with guides. Of all the three main sellers;Ortovox, Barryvox and BCA Tracker, the ortovox has consistantly the best range.(around 45m) the other brands average around 20-35m. This if you have ever had to sweep for a lost person is the biggest time saving issue after that its about ease of use and that is practise. We test all our transeivers before sale however there are no real tests as when you need them most, thats all you've got. Change batteries weekly and check the range regularly. Get Glacier travel, snow profiling and crevase rescue training. Prevention is the key to safety, should you need your Transiever, chances are your looking for a body, sorry. Twisted Evil
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
beanie1, Skiing by yourself with a transceiver, even if it's quite close to the lifts, is not much better than skiing without one. You need a buddy who will search for your signal. Like PP says, it's in your best interest to give the better transceiver to your buddy, but he might decline your generous offer on secong thoughts wink. Also, the transceiver is no good if you have not got a shovel and, to a lesser degree, a probe.

I really cannot understand why companies sell transceivers without a small transmitter so people can practice in the off season/at home.
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Freestyle wrote:
You and me bothbeanie1, we were chatting to a friend who lives next door to a search and rescue guy and his avalanche dog in the Grand Massif. Our friend got the Otovox transceiver and practised in the summer (they were in the sale) and was surpried to see a helicopter hover above their garden. The pilots were on a summer jolly and picked up the signal and went to investigate.

So far so good for the Otovox but we are currently hiring and waiting for the 'Star Trek' transceivers to come out late next year. The ones with the LCD screens.


This worries me, i have a phone with an LCD screen and at minnus temperatures it's display slows down. This would worry me in a search as the information on screen would arrive slower. This would be fatal in a primary ski sweep.
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 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
beanie1, Deb & I went for the DTS Tracker. We found it by far the easiest to use which was a major factor if, even after plenty of practice, the $h!t hits the fan & the pressure is really on. Luckily with two in the house practicing is easy.

Also stay clear of rechargeable batteries as they don't hold the charge very well in cold temperatures.
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 snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Another vote for DTS tracker here, principally for ease of use, though we have an Ortovox X1 as well which is probably just as easy to use and slightly less bulky.
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Quote:

Get Glacier travel, snow profiling and crevase rescue training. Prevention is the key

from...... Puzzled
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Martin Nicholas, We use Chamonix Expierience in Argentiere. Best of British Guides, owned by Russell 'Everest in my sleep' Briers.
Awsome experience. Twisted Evil
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
I use an Ortovox M2 --the ones with the lid issue - but if I was buying again I would look at DTS Tracker as I think it easier to use.
My friend loves his for this reason but I will ask him about the range which should be a huge factor..
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
beanie1, I'm surprised none of the more experienced snowHeads have given you a bit more detail on the possibilities, so here's my take on it so far. I've used several models in search exercises and not been entirely happy with any of them. I'm far from experienced with using them though, so if anyone wants to correct any errors I perpetrate below please feel free. With extra familiarity you'd probably work around the problems fairly easily.

DTS Tracker:
At first sight easiest for a complete novice. Lights to show you which direction to move and LED digital readout of distance to go, so easy to read in low light. I did find several features I didn't like though. Digital readout was very unstable if you moved too quickly - and that meant at a normal walking pace! I had to move at pretty much crawling pace to get a stable reading. Readout was also very badly affected by multiple burials (to the extend of being virtually useless). I also don't like the way you can turn it off while wearing it (there's a chance you could turn off by mistake), and there's a button to change from transmit to receive - again which means you could get into the wrong mode by mistake.

All the Ortovox models have a connector that guarantees it's in transmit mode while you're wearing it, and taking it off either turns it off, or into search mode (depending which clip you undo). This is a good thing.

Ortovox F1:
A purely analog device with excellent range, but no clue on direction to move, so you need to get familiar with grid searching. Distance feedback is purely by audible signals. In a test a few years ago, this proved the fastest to locate a burial, in trained hands - but the slowest in a novices hands. You can move fairly fast with it though until you get really close. At long distance you can be skiing beside the avalanche to get within say 10m.

Ortovox X1:
Has lights to indicate direction to move and distance readout, coupled with the normal Ortovox switching/clasp system. At first sight the best of all worlds. However I've read some real scare stories from guys in the states about this model - failures for no obvious reason and dreadful range (the digital readout only works for something like 3m-10m, other than that you're basically back to the F1) - and a couple of suppliers have refused to sell any further Ortovox beacons based on that experience.

Ortovox M2:
Reasonably good range IIRC. Gives you a distance reading but no direction information. Does indicate when you're at the closest point in the search though, which is good. The range adjustable audible beep is also pretty good. Clasp-based mode switch as usual. Seems to take less time for the readout to settle than the Tracker. The readout is only LCD though, and not brilliant in low light conditions. Also gets thrown off a bit in multiple signal situations: the last test I did with one it got really confused by a second transmitting beacon about 30m away, the one I was searching for was about 10m away at the time.

Of the above I'd probably choose the M2 as the best compromise - although if I was using it every week I'd probably go for the F1.

The ones I've seen most highly recommended are the Mammut/Barryvox and the Pieps DSP. Unfortunately I've not had my hands on either, but I see a lot of guides using the Barryvox. AFAIK the Pieps has an LCD showing where it thinks multiple signals are positioned, identifies each one, then allows you to lock on to just one and search for that masking out all the others. It is the most expensive out there though - I was looking just over a year ago and it was nearly £300, if you could even find one in the UK. That's probably the one I'd buy today if I really had to. I also see there's a new Ortovox out, the S1 (IIRC), that allows basically the same thing. No idea how well it works though.

Bottom line for me at the moment though is that I'm currently renting when necessary, and waiting to see what turns up. Either it normally comes as part of the deal, i.e. on every SCGB holiday (which has been over half my off-piste skiing up to now), or with the guide when I've hired one (which has been pretty much the rest). This year I'm probably doing a couple of part weeks where I'll need one and not necessarily with a guide, so I'm renting from the SCGB for £10 a week. So if it costs me £20/year rental - that's nearly 15 years use before I'd get my money back on a Pieps. As I get better though, I'll probably be doing more unguided off-piste, so I expect the economics to start changing before long, and I'll probably buy one next year or the year after.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Martin Nicholas,
Facewest organise avalanche awareness courses at Plas Y Brenin run by Rob Collister a very experienced mountain guide.
He teaches the fundamentals of trying to identify unsafe snow conditions, learning to predict which slopes will let go etc and how to use a transceiver.
The courses usually sell out very quickly so its best to get on the mailing list.
www.facewest.co.uk
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
I have a Barryvox. Love the fact that it can use Digital & Analogue signals at the same time. The reason I went for this model is, AFAIK, the only one that allows for an automatic revert to send mode, ie, should a second slide occur (a very slight risk but a risk non the less) your beeper will revert from search to send mode and increase your chances of getting found. I thank you.

My wife still uses an older Analogue Ortovox and refuses to come digital as she can hear the sounds better than trying to look at a little screen or lights when trying to make her way through VERY heavy avalanche debris... I've heard lots of guides have the same opinion, a few of which wear analogue for themselves but give their punters digital transeivers incase they are relying on them to find them (the guides Confused).
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
parlor wrote:
I have a Barryvox. Love the fact that it can use Digital & Analogue signals at the same time. The reason I went for this model is, AFAIK, the only one that allows for an automatic revert to send mode, ie, should a second slide occur (a very slight risk but a risk non the less) your beeper will revert from search to send mode and increase your chances of getting found. I thank you.



DTS tracker has that facility too.
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GrahamN wrote:
......
DTS Tracker:
.... I also don't like the way you can turn it off while wearing it (there's a chance you could turn off by mistake), and there's a button to change from transmit to receive - again which means you could get into the wrong mode by mistake.


Puzzled . Sorry Graham but as a Tracker owner I strongly disgree with these two statements.

The on/off switch has to be rotated 90 degrees, is very stiff & has to be depressed to turn it - & when in it's holster/harness (as it should be worn) the switch is protected. It is therefore simply impossible for it to be turned off accidently during wear, even including when it's not in it's holster.

There is also certainly no way you can put it in the wrong mode by mistake. When the Tracker is turned on it automatically turns on in the transmit mode, as indicated by the letter 'tr' in the display & the continually flashing red light on the side of the unit, also indicating that it's in the transmit mode.

To change to search you have to depress the already slightly recessed, which is pretty stiff button, & then hold it down for a seconds after which time the display changes to a flashing 'SE' & is accompanied by a series of beeps.

To revert back to the transmit mode you again have to depress the button for a few seconds, after which the display reverts back to the flashing 'tr', also acompanied by a series of beeps, & the light on the side of the unit starts to flash continually again. All blindingly obvious to any user.

Evil or Very Mad
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Please note that this post is my personal opinion, and does not represent the official position of any company for whom I guide or organization to which I belong.

During some extensive pre-season training I have encountered some distressing problems with the Pieps DSP transceiver, to the point that I personally believe them to be unsuitable for sale, and definitely to be avoided.

We have been training almost daily in the run up to the season, and invested in two new Pieps DSP units, for myself and my regular touring partner. The 3 aerial receive set up certainly makes it very, very easy to follow the flux line in to a buried transmitter, and the ability of the unit to lock onto and just indicate the distance to/direction to the nearest buried transceiver is impressive, indeed if just one of us is searching on our own we can easily locate, probe for, dig up and turn off 4 buried units of any make in a 100ft square plot, each buried 60cm deep in an average of 6 minutes to find all 4. We use 40cm by 30 cm ‘probe targets’ (restaurant trays work well) buried just above the transmitters to give us something to probe for.

BUT THERE IS A BIG, BIG CATCH!

We have also regularly been training in group rescue scenarios and here things go badly wrong. In a typical scenario, where we have several searchers using various transceivers, (typically here Trackers and Mamuts, also various Ortovox) as I home in on a transmitter my Pieps stops tracking and brings up a number on the screen preceded by an E. This repeatedly happens and I am left standing without a clue as to where to search next. It has happened way out in the back country and also in preflight training at the heliport here in Whistler where buried electric cables were what I first blamed it on.

After long email correspondence with the N American agent for Pieps I got this list of E(rror) messages from Pieps that can be displayed and the reason for them.

I’m posting the list below for fellow Pieps owners who may have the same problem. The sad, and significantly very dangerous point is that if another transceiver, even on ‘search’ gets nearer than about 10ft to you when you are searching, your Pieps is going to throw up an error code, and if you look at the error code details supplied by Pieps below you will realize that even the manufacturer has only a fix involving (re) moving the other unit and then resetting one's Pieps… In the real world this is not an acceptable or practical option!

So I have ‘retired’ our Pieps DSPs and we’re back to using Mamuts. An expensive mistake!


PIEPS-DSP & PIEPS-DSP/O Error Codes January 2005

E04 = Indication of iron masses nearby and like; all other error codes can be triggered due to interference from other electronic apparatuses. Cell phones are such a common device people forgot about them until they ring. GPS, radio communication, radios. High Voltage Lines.
Action: Turn transceiver off, rectify and or eliminate above problems, turn transceiver on and continue.

E22 = Receiver strength is effected on all three antennas due Iron masses nearby, or other electronic apparatuses signal interference or having another beacon interference nearby (less than 5 meters.)
Action: Turn transceiver off, rectify and or eliminate above problems, turn transceiver on and continue

E23 = Reinforced receiver amplification interference due another beacon nearby (less than 3 meters) or other electronic apparatuses signal interference.
Action: Turn transceiver off, rectify and or eliminate above problems, turn transceiver on and continue

E25 = Transmit frequency is outside the acceptable range due another beacon near by (less than 3 meters) or other electronic interference.
Action: Turn transceiver off, rectify and or eliminate above problems, turn transceiver on and continue

E27 = Processor problems: The transceiver is defect and is no longer aloud to be used, even if the problem has disappeared.
Action: The transceiver must be returned to the manufacturer.
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spyderjon, sorry, it seems that I may have overstated the case. I still don't like the way that you can be wearing the thing and have it not turned on. I should have stressed that the "mistakenly turned off" point is primarily due to human error/forgetfulness (it certainly happens - I've done it myself). The risk is of course mitigated by being disciplined about doing a transceiver check at the start of each day. My most serious objection to it though is the reliability of the readout when moveing at the kind of speed you'd be wanting to move when in a search situation; how do you find it?

colinmcc, wow...thanks for that. Glad now I didn't take the plunge on that one when I was considering it last year. Have you any experience of the new Ortovox?
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
GrahamN, in the drills I've done I've found the readout to be stable but I've never tried moving quicker than walking pace. If I get a minute I'll give them another test over the weekend.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
While the grid search with analogue transcievers such as the old Barryvox was best done 'fast' so the changing volume was easily heard, this isn't the case with Digital units. The computers in these take time to compute distance and direction and moving fast can seriously confuse them. So slowly following the direction indicators along the flux line and into the buried unit actually works better most of the time.

GrahamN, Yes the ability to put the tracker on and not turn it on is a problem. Before setting out one morning earlier this week I had my group ski past me while I checked that they were transmitting.. guess who was turned off? Yes, the guy (actually the SCGB rep Sad ) with the tracker... I'd far rather they followed the 'attach the strap and it will be on' school of design. I see that this year's Tracker finally has a proper holster and has done away with that poxy harness, snaps and D rings, so that at least gives better access to the on/off switch. And makes quick access to the unit far easier.

Mamut (Descendants of Ascom/Barryvox) seem to be dominating the market here, Whistler Heliski for example recently bought several hundred. I have no current knowledge of the Ortovox range, we don't see many of them. The Tracker is common with Brit guests and since the SCGB rep always has a handfull to lend to club members, I've observed and am impressed with their 'ease of use' for occasional users.
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colinmcc,

I think i would be taking the Pieps back to were i bought it and asking for a refund as it is "not fit for purpose"

good luck
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Ski the Net with snowHeads
GrahamN, colinmcc, I find it hard to criticise a manufacturer because their product design relies on the user having to turn it on!

A function check should always be carried out. What happens when the Ortovox connector gets worn or damaged so that it connects but doesn't put the unit in transmit mode? Isn't there a danger with this design that a user would assume that it's working correctly when perhaps it not? These are valid questions but wouldn't stop me buying an Ortovox product if I thought it offered the best features & benefits for me.

The rules for use are straight forward for any transceiver: turn on when putting on in the morning (inc a battery check) & turn off when removing the unit at the end of the day. Always perform a function check with the others in your party. I think that's pretty simple & if people can't follow that then they shouldn't be skiing off piste.

Deb & I are 'occasional users' as colinmcc describes at 3/4 weeks a season, and then probably only a couple of guided days per week. The DTS is definately the best choice for us - hence my recommendation to beanie1 who stated a pretty similar user requirement.
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 snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Oh yes, one other rule for use:

Always wear the unit around your body in/on the harness, preferably on top of the base layer but under a mid layer if/when worn. The curved & rounded shape of the DTS makes it very comfortable to wear.

I used to have mine in my jacket pocket but was 'politely' corrected by the guys on Epic. Our guide in Kitzbuhel at Christmas confirmed to me that the pressures of an avalanche can easily remove a jacket etc.
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
spyderjon wrote:


The rules for use are straight forward for any transceiver: turn on when putting on in the morning (inc a battery check) & turn off when removing the unit at the end of the day. Always perform a function check with the others in your party. I think that's pretty simple & if people can't follow that then they shouldn't be skiing off piste.



spyderjon I couldn't agree with you more, just watch out that the digital units suck batteries dry really fast, far faster than old analogue units, so you'll almost dertainly need to replace them during a 3-4 week use.

The DTS is definitely a good choice, second only to the Mammut which is significantly more expensive though.
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
This Jan 2006 news item about combining the Recco reflector system with a transciever might just save your bacon if you forget to turn your transciever when buried. I have no idea how many rescue operations have Recco locating equipment but as a 'belt and braces' approach it is probably worth considering!

http://www.skipressworld.com/us/en/daily_news/2006/01/new_avy_transceiver_to_integrate_recco.html?cat=Gear

For those who are happy with a purely accoustic/analogue unit the Barryvox PRO, has a vast range compared to any other transciever, and has all sorts of 'extras' such as an external aerial to dangle beneath a helicopter, jack sockets to plug into a helicopter's headphone system and more. Not for casual use though!

Here is a link to Recco's site which includes a list of resorts having Recco receivers. Sadly Canada is lacking but Parks Canada have just decided to purchase them and train their Park wardens in their use. Seem we are 20 years behind Europe on this one. Puzzled

http://www.recco.com/startsida/index.asp
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Martin Nicholas,

Tried to look at the Noah's Arc website a couple of times but it's not loading. Was it working ok when you put the link in?

Thanks
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Hi,

Admin PM'd me about this thread so I decided to take a look in - sorry been skiing too much lately.

Just a few points. You can do a flux line search with analogue beacons - you just have to replace the computer in the Tracker DTS or Barryvox with your brain. Of course you lack two antennas but you do have two ears! Once you have a signal you sweep the beacon through an arc of 60 degrees in front of you to and follow the point where the signal is strongest. This is the method I would favour with something like the F1, it is quite easy but I wouldn’t knock the simple logic of a grid search either. On avalanche awareness courses I've seen newbies do better times with the F1, even on grid searches, than people using digital beacons. The advantage of digital beacons is far from clear cut but I will come back to this[1].

The lack of range for a flux line search (digital beacons) is not such a big deal as from say 60 meters out the flux line can take you on a big wide arc - which is inconvenient if you are searching is a restricted space - cliffs, couloir etc. With an analogue beacon you tend to make a more direct line to the victim from a distance simply increasing the volume.

Of course the Ortovox X1 is supposed to marry these two together with an analogue function for range switching to digital closer in. However I personally found it confusing and the signal processing is rather slow and erratic. It also couldn’t pick up one of my beacons in digital mode correctly which I found worrying (I had the beacon checked by the manufacturer who found the signal was within the specs). The Ortovox S1 is a long way off – next autumn maybe, I’ll try to find out more at IPSO but Ortovox are very tight lipped about the problems. Then I would not recommend buying any backcountry kit in its first year of issue. Let someone else beta test it.


[1] I’ve spoken with a few people over the last couple of weeks who have been involved with rescues, both successful and not in the recent avalanches we have had here in France. What becomes clear from many, many incidents is that rescuers are not proficient enough at organising the whole search operation. There is a wide a gulf between finding your mate’s beacon in the local park and a successful live rescue. If you are going to practise you need to bury the target beacon in something like a rucksack at least 50cm below ground level – if you are stuck in the UK beaches are a good location but make sure the beacon is switched on and in a plastic bag to avoid sand.

Probing skills are as important as beacon skills when the victim is at depth.

Find a beacon, digital or analogue, you are happy with and knowing how it works. Forget all the bells and whistles you will not have time or the prescience of mind to use them in a real rescue. I’m not saying don’t buy a Barryvox Opto 3000 but just focus on what the basic features and ease of use are. Analogue beacons have the advantage that you can focus on the search area while listening to the signal - last week a father and son were buried in a couloir avalanche. While homing in on a signal with an analogue beacon one of the searchers noticed a glove poking out of the debris, something he may have missed if concentrating on his digital display. On the other hand there are cases of people with little S&R experience performing live rescues with a digital beacon, but you need one with a reliable and unambiguous readout. People have already suggested some good brands to consider.

Do not let multiple victim searches predominate your choice of beacon. First of all with group management you never want to be in this kind of scenario. Leave that to the experts rescuing groups of freeriders whooping it up off-piste. If you can rescue one person from beneath an avalanche you have already achieved something a big % of groups fail to achieve.

Regarding Recco, there was a very good article in the autumn “Avalanche Review” – the journal of the American Avalanche Association. The Recco kit, which I have used, can pick up any electronic devices – walkmans, mobile phones etc although it works best with the Recco pastel. However there are few live recoveries due to the time it takes the rescue services to arrive at the scene of an avalanche. I know they had a live recovery at les Deux Alpes a couple of years back. Recco can really be seen as a device that is useful for recovery off-piste skiing in close proximity to a ski domain. Since the 2 Alpes incident most ski areas in France have Recco receivers.

If you want to know more about beacons Google is your friend – try searching for: avalanche transceivers or the individual beacon by name. Remember that shop sites often just post the manufacturer's blurb. There has been some good stuff on TelemarkTalk.com as well.


As a parting thought I wonder if people on SnowHeads would like to guess, statistically, how much your chance of being rescued alive increases by wearing a beacon?


good skiing
David
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Poster: A snowHead
davidof wrote:


Just a few points. You can do a flux line search with analogue beacons - you just have to replace the computer in the Tracker DTS or Barryvox with your brain. Of course you lack two antennas but you do have two ears! Once you have a signal you sweep the beacon through an arc of 60 degrees in front of you to and follow the point where the signal is strongest. This is the method I would favour with something like the F1, it is quite easy but I wouldn’t knock the simple logic of a grid search either. On avalanche awareness courses I've seen newbies do better times with the F1, even on grid searches, than people using digital beacons. The advantage of digital beacons is far from clear cut but I will come back to this[1].



Thats interesting. Last year we had instruction from two people on the same trip, the first showed us the grid method the second, a guide, showed us the flux line but he said we shouldn't have been shown the grid method the previous day as it wasn't as fast. we were using F1's.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
davidof wrote:

As a parting thought I wonder if people on SnowHeads would like to guess, statistically, how much your chance of being rescued alive increases by wearing a beacon?

I'd guess if there happened to be a pro on the spot, like your mountain guide, or an experienced search/rescuer not skier, quite a lot. And if not, then the limiting factor of how long you wait (preferably in an Avalung) while your well-geared mates are phaffing about trying to find you until the pros arrive will be the final decider.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
davidof,
Quote:

As a parting thought I wonder if people on SnowHeads would like to guess, statistically, how much your chance of being rescued alive increases by wearing a beacon?


I believe there was an Austrian study which did not demonstrate any increased survival if you were skiing from a lift served area. But there may have been benefits if you were ski touring, though I am not certain about this.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
beanie1, This takes you straight in to the DTS page of Noah's Its the most serch engine coy retailers website I've ever seen! Sad
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Martin Nicholas, Thats their old website apparently, DTS isn't on the new one HERE
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 You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
Thanks, hope they're still selling it.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
rich wrote:
davidof wrote:


Just a few points. You can do a flux line search with analogue beacons - you just have to replace the computer in the Tracker DTS or Barryvox with your brain. Of course you lack two antennas but you do have two ears! Once you have a signal you sweep the beacon through an arc of 60 degrees in front of you to and follow the point where the signal is strongest. This is the method I would favour with something like the F1, it is quite easy but I wouldn’t knock the simple logic of a grid search either. On avalanche awareness courses I've seen newbies do better times with the F1, even on grid searches, than people using digital beacons. The advantage of digital beacons is far from clear cut but I will come back to this[1].



Thats interesting. Last year we had instruction from two people on the same trip, the first showed us the grid method the second, a guide, showed us the flux line but he said we shouldn't have been shown the grid method the previous day as it wasn't as fast. we were using F1's.


If you are happy with flux line with your F1 stick to it, especially as your guide thinks it is a good idea.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Just out of interest - what's the sound like when searching in high winds with an analogue beacon?
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 You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
T Bar wrote:
davidof,
Quote:

As a parting thought I wonder if people on SnowHeads would like to guess, statistically, how much your chance of being rescued alive increases by wearing a beacon?


I believe there was an Austrian study which did not demonstrate any increased survival if you were skiing from a lift served area. But there may have been benefits if you were ski touring, though I am not certain about this.


With the caveat that the statistics are incomplete and limited it seems that wearing a beacon increases your survival rate by around 10-20% There is a good thread on Telemarktips.com about this:

Beacons only increase chance of survival 10%?

From the 2003-2004 French figures the increase in survival rate was from 37% to 42% where a beacon was used for accidents where that were reported to the emergency services or piste patrol and where the victim was completely buried by the slide (for partial burials the survival rates are around 90% - but then you don't need a beacon for partial burials).

There are a number of points to take from these figures (some have already been made in this thread), here are some thoughts (feel free to criticize them):

i. the rescue services in France are very efficient at reaching avalanches and rescuing people - but remember the magic ingredient of "helicopter" and "avalanche dog" implies that the weather is good enough to fly and there are not other incidents at the time. On high risk days the emergency services may be over stretched. The figures also mix off-piste and "backcountry" data - I imagine the emergency services make more live recoveries off-piste as they can get dogs to the scene and mobilise probe lines quickly.

ii. People are probably focussed on the 15 minute rule (93% surviability after 15 minutes assuming you are not killed by trauma in the slide) and thinking that if the slope goes their buddies will dig them out

iii. amateurs obviously need more practise in beacon use, Search and Rescue techniques and emergency first aid. The simplicity of digital beacons may be a trap if you practise less

A key point from this paper: http://www.liebertonline.com/doi/abs/10.1089%2Fham.2005.6.72

Despite a significant reduction, mortality still exceeds 50% even with the use of transceivers.

Or as Bruce Tremper puts it when thinking if you will ski a slope or not: "Choice is something that you have before getting caught in avalanche, never afterwards".

Don't forget Henry's Avalanche Talks in Meribel every Monday during the season at 18h00 in Pizza Express which is above Dick’s T-Bar.

The place, dates and times for the Talks in Val d’Isère are: Introduction Talks Tuesday at 18.00 (cost €5 but it is also happy hour at Dicks) and In-Depth Talks (free entry if you came on Tuesday) will be on Thursday at 18.00 @ Dick’s Tea Bar. The Talks last just under 90 minutes including a break in the middle including a question and answer session at the end.

If you are there this Thursday 12th January I'm doing a talk on avalanche accidents in France.
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 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Spoke with Noah's Ark today and they said they no longer stock the Tracker as they think it's out dated. They told me the Ortovox X1 is the best thing currently on the market as it's so easy to use, so that's what they're selling now. Though looking at their website I think they mean the S1?

A friend has also reccommended the Barryvox, though I've read reports that they are best for experienced users.

What do you think?
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