Instructor Pay

A snowHead

Guy just a quick question. On average what do the UK domes pay for a L1 instructor?

A snowHead

Depends on the condition. Fresh, well seasoned or decomposing.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Fresh, newly qualified

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Minimum wage on a zero hour contract rolling eyes

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Just above minimum wage on a zero hour contract was my experience. You don't do it for the money.

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call the one you want to work at and ask em..

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MK is just over £7 an hour and there is no difference whether you're a just qualified L1 or a L2/3/4 unless you're a team leader or head of ski school. It's ridiculous money considering what they charge their customers and the amount of time, effort and money that goes into qualifying. Most people do it as a hobby job, you couldn't do it as a career in the UK unless you were already very rich.

After all it is free

How much does a garage mechanic get paid, compared to the enormous labour rate charged to customers?

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@MayaL, and snow domes grow on trees?

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I'm not saying that they do but I know what other sports instructors get paid and yes, I do think that the low pay of ski instructors is outrageous for the time, skill, effort and money that goes into qualifying.

As an example at MK, a day course to learn to ski or board is £175.99 and you can have up to 10 on a lesson with one instructor, that is £1759.90 for the day. In peak season you can easily have 10 on the lesson. The instructor will get £60 for the day before tax. A private lesson is £140 for one person, £190 for two, the instructor will get less than £8 for that lesson. They don't even get free skiing if they're not on contract (and they're not giving contracts anymore) so if they want to ski they have to pay. So low pay and few perks. People do it for the love, not the money.

Am I saying that it's going to change? No, of course it's not, but does it make it right? No, of course it doesn't.

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@dogwatch, that sounds like the rate they charge each participant for a group lesson. I think the relevant comparison for hiring out of professionals would be what they charge for a private lesson.

@MayaL, Thanks this has been very useful. I'm just trying to workout how many hours I would need to work at a dome to cover my fuel costs, take a few ££ for myself less the tax.

You know it makes sense.

@chrisrawles, I'm in Cambridge like you. I reckon I break even after four hours teaching once I've paid tax and transport costs. Like others have said many of the instructors aren't doing it for the money. I do it because I really enjoy it, get a lot out of it, get to improve my skiing, and if my hobby can break even then that's pretty good compared to most hobbies. That's not to say I wouldn't do more of it if I could make it pay, just that I can see why things are like they are and I'm happy with that. If I wasn't, I'd stop teaching.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

@stewart woodward,
If you're on a zero hour contract and minimum wage you can't afford an accountant. Mind you I doubt you will be paying much / any tax if you are.

A snowHead

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@PaulC1984, I think there would be ways around any IR35 issues but there are a lot of other costs that would need to be considered.

I already have a limited company providing consultancy and other services. I'm VAT registered and have various liability insurances. One thing I have been hoping is that once I finish my shadowing I can start instructing as a freelancer. I have broached the subject with the local dry slope but I suspect they will be very reluctant, however, there will be benefits for them as well as me. Ideally I'd like to invoice them and then the income would be company income alongside my other consulting income.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

I think some slopes do have self-employed instructors who just invoice the slope for hours worked, so it's not unheard of. I just think the zero hours contract arrangement is more usual.

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@Gaza, one of the factors the IR take into account is whether you work for a variety of clients. As you do, you have a much better chance of doing it as a "contractor" rather than an "employee". It's the employer who takes the biggest risk, though, hence their reluctance, perhaps.

The question of insurance is a good one. I'm not familiar with ski instructor insurance - does BASI provide this? RYA membership gives qualified sailing instructors liability insurance - absolutely essential and it would be bonkers to think of ski instructing without it.

How do the domes work out costs if an instructor works "freelance"? They would presumably expect some kind of fee to be paid for use of the slope.

Given the tiny sums involved, using their standard procedure might just be simpler. Interesting question, though.

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Just seen the post from @sarah. Presumably it makes a big difference whether the slope contracts you to teach "their" clients or whether you are responsible for drumming up your own (as IO presumably do).

After all it is free

@pam w, generally the slopes have a per person day rate for Instructors/Trainers bringing in their own clients. Those instructors are generally totally independent of the slope.

Some slopes do allow their own instructors to work on a freelance basis. I think they pay them the same rate - minimum wage ish - as the instructors on the zero hours contract.

BASI membership provides liability insurance, and the slopes have insurance too.

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be should

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@Gaza, interesting that you put your professional expenses as a ski instructor through your company, is it a related business? I only ask as I tried this one some years ago and was told straight off by the accountant no way as it was a completely different line of business.

I don't think any hobbyist ski instructors need to worry about IR35!

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@sarah, I'll let you know what my accountant says at my year end. Toofy Grin

My business is classified as consulting and training. My view is that if I market the services of XYZ Ltd as providing consultancy and training then instructing will fall firmly in the latter category. I can imagine it would be harder to put it through if the business was a pub or hairdressers. NehNeh

You know it makes sense.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Setting up a Limited Company for most instructors would not be financially viable. All my set-up costs have already been met and I can't see my accountants adding any extra. In fact, my accountant doesn't have to do much for me as I use FreeAgent Central for all my bookkeeping, invoicing and expenses monitoring. Adding a ski centre as another client would be a 2 minute job.

A snowHead

A snowHead

Yeh, the company paying the tax on behalf of the employee, balfours the tight back bottoms sacked over 600 employees the day before christnas break, they were never goingvto pay the tax on their behalf lol. Thats one of mmaannnyyy reasons im glad i run my own company now! Happy

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I don't think IR35 would be an issue, nor the new proposals for stopping contractors claiming mileage/subsistence expenses as you wouldn't be working under direct supervision. You'd probably need to make sure you had another couple of clients to be safe.

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@tarrantd, isn't it amazing, when the economy is in dire straights like the mid 80's and Maggie T. encouraged everyone (like myself in construction) to go self employed, to stop her mates in big business have to pay for holiday/pension/sick entitlement so no aggro from the I.R. but when the economy picks up its all change, with IR35 if you are deemed to be taking no financial risk ie if paid a set day rate for 1 day even, so you need to become an employee, so government gets larger NI and tax contribution, that is why all our subbies are on price work. who can afford to factor in all the additional costs when tendering for projects if you are a small company?
although, I bet there will be people on here telling me otherwise, but that is not to say either of us would be wrong, just that the rules are massively unclear, hence having to employ accountants/solicitors (who coincidently make up most of governments) or am I being to cynical!!!!!!
jesus, and I thought this was a snowsport forum!!!!!

don't even get me started on the situation in calais

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@terrygasson the big increase in small Ltd companies that started in the 80's was directly related to the rise in temporary employment in the clerical/secretarial market. These people were difficult to track down and so the IR decided that the form of your employment was either one "of service" or "for services". For the temps this meant that most became employees of their agency since this removed the liability for tax and NI from the client. For consultants this meant that unless they worked for many clients at the same time they had to form a Ltd company or risk placing the burden for tax and NI on the client. The advent of IR35 further declared that if the sole employee of a Ltd company earned all their income in the provision of service contracts then all of the income (except certain allowed expenses) from the contracts was the employee's even if this was not paid in salary and prevented the employee from getting some of their income as dividends or by paying their wife/partner a salary to reduce tax and NI liabilities.

So a ski instructor working full time for a ski centre even as a contractor would be subject to these rules and would be no better off then being paid as an employee and probably worse off because of employer's NI liability!

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Wouldn't the OPs best option to be to operate as a sole trader?

Invoice the centre for hours worked gross of tax and ni, then at the end of the year submit their tax return showing all income from invoices and declare all costs in achieving that revenue such as travel, subsistence, ppe, cpd training, accommodation, first aid renewals etc etc etc and then pay tax on the net profit.

As the this appears, unless i've misunderstood, not to be the OPs sole source of income then he's clear of the dreaded IR35 or if there's any doubt it as the majority of his instructors earnings are at one centre then all he need do is some "shadowing hours" at a different centre?

Most sailing instructors work this way.

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@marcellus I think plenty of instructors do pretty much that. My view is that it just isn't worth the hassle. I'd rather pay the tax (tax is in my view a good thing after all) and be done.

After all it is free

if you can claim your training and first aid / other courses as an expense, could possibly claim for uniform and tools for the job too, then you would be reducing your tax bill

I asked my accountant today, it's all down to if I'd be a sole trade capacity or classed as an employee on the best route for paying less tax.

They pointed me at the gov site for expenses

A bit of research suggests that any training can be tax relief as it's training is ‘wholly, exclusively and necessarily incurred, this is either as an employee or not, as it's necessary to be qualified to work as a ski instructor. So that would mean I can claim back against my inside out course, BASI level 1 and first aid courses.

Equipment is also tax relief under annual investment allowance, it looks like uniform looks to be allowed too. Now can I back date my ski's/boots from last year ? Wink

I might give HMRC a call to get this all clarified.

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You may find that the employer will expect you to provide a letter from the IR to prove you are a sole trader before paying you gross. Without that the employer runs the risk of being responsible for the tax and NI on your earnings and not you the employee. It's best to contact your tax office and ask the question. When I asked a similar question some years ago I was told in no uncertain terms that I was just trying to avoid paying tax and they would never consider me self employed/sole trader. The problem is that the interpretation is in the hands of the individual tax inspector and may vary from office to office.

Help!!

Instructor Pay

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