 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I've just posted this on the BASI facebook page. 
A bit more info here - http://www.snowsportscotland.org/become-an-instructor
The devil is in the detail as the saying goes. The fact they are saying L1s can get Advanced but also say that 20 hours mountain experience is required seems to be contradictory as an L1 is unlikely to have that.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Is this them getting ready not to be part of Britain ? Maybe BASI will move south....
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Is there really such a requirement?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Jake43 wrote: |
| Is this them getting ready not to be part of Britain ? Maybe BASI will move south.... |
No this is them meeting the needs of the Scottish market because BASI dont. The Scottish snow centres are employing BASI 1s and Ski Leaders to work outside their remit because they cant get enough BASI 2s due to needing to do 15 days of courses before they can start working. This is a more flexible modular system.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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It appears to be quite restrictive and anyone with these quals won't be able to freelance:-
| Quote: |
These qualifications are appropriate for instructors who have been directed to work with an individual or a group. They are not designed for, nor are they intended to be used as a validating qualification for independent instructors. The ‘direction to work’ will have been given by an authority (the Authorising Body) which has assumed responsibility for a risk evaluation of the intended instructional session(s) and has deemed that the person being ‘directed to work’ is a responsible and fit person. In doing so the Authorising Body assumes the responsibility for public liability. The term ‘directed to work’ is not related to payment.
The normal Authorising Body will be; snowsport schools or clubs, local education authorities*, uniformed groups and outdoor centres. Qualified instructors intending to work with other bodies, such as independent youth groups, should seek advice from the Snowsport Scotland office. |
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Will ESF accept it ?
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| snowrider wrote: |
| The Scottish snow centres are employing BASI 1s and Ski Leaders to work outside their remit because they cant get enough BASI 2s due to needing to do 15 days of courses before they can start working. This is a more flexible modular system. |
I've heard that Cairngorm have stopped L1s doing any instruction but Glenshee will allow L1s to work on the nursery slopes.
| snowrider wrote: |
| ....cant get enough BASI 2s due to needing to do 15 days of courses before they can start working. |
I assume you are counting the 5 days for L1 in the total?
I don't think they have made the website very clear. For example there contradictions in the "Instructor" section where it says:- "Post course requirements - 30 hours instructing assistance within a snowsports school or club. " but then it says: "Upon successful completion of the course, .......,........ and 35 hours snowsport school experience." Confusing.
This is also not clear to me:-
| Quote: |
| Pre-course requirements - 17 years old, hold SSS Instructor Award or equivalent*, 10 days snowsports experience in the Scottish Mountains, 40 hours logged and verified instructing experience. These hours are required to be verified by the Snowsports School Director and logged with the SSS office by email. A licence will only be issued to those over 18 and with all supporting documents in place. * |
Is it saying I have to have 10 days snowsports instructing experience in Scottish Mountains or just have spent 10 days skiing in Scotland? The 40 hours is not clear either; is it shadowing or full teaching?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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All the home nations used to offer L1 instructing courses until about 10 years ago.
Snowsport Scot and Eng both had ASSI course for dry slope instructors.
It was only in last 10 years that home nations focussed just on 'coaching' rather than instructing courses.
So in reality this is just them going back to the way it used to be.
Probably makes sense for schools, scout groups etc who need leaders to have simple and quick qual.
Nice to see, but if you want to eventually do BASI L2 then best to stick to that pathway IMHO.
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Haggis_Trap, Nothing has changed for Snowsport England, they still run ASSI and Club Instructor courses.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| snowrider wrote: |
| Jake43 wrote: |
| Is this them getting ready not to be part of Britain ? Maybe BASI will move south.... |
No this is them meeting the needs of the Scottish market because BASI dont. The Scottish snow centres are employing BASI 1s and Ski Leaders to work outside their remit because they cant get enough BASI 2s due to needing to do 15 days of courses before they can start working. This is a more flexible modular system. |
Exactly but what point is BASI then. Can't get work in Scotland or France. Which must be the biggest 2 markets. I did not phrase it very well but I was trying to say, what is BASI role going to be soon  As BASI is based in Scotland you would have thought it could have been influenced to change its systems of quals that would have then been suitable.
Daughter is BASI L1 but then went down the Canadian route to get actual work. So is now CSIA1 & 2 part way to 3
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Jake43 wrote: |
| Exactly but what point is BASI then. Can't get work in Scotland or France. Which must be the biggest 2 markets. |
Who says you can't get work in Scotland and France with BASI qualifications?
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Jake43 wrote: |
| Exactly but what point is BASI then. Can't get work in Scotland or France. Which must be the biggest 2 markets. |
Who says you can't get work in Scotland and France with BASI qualifications? |
Well obviously it depends on the level of quals you have, but it does seem that you need at least L3 and a French test for France or is the big lawsuit a con. You teach out there somehow so there must be a way. But at what cost.
The whole point of this thread is that people can't easily get the L2 qual from BASI to teach in Scotland so they are making there own.
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You know it makes sense.
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@Jake43, not sure what you mean. A BASI L2 can work in Scottish mountain areas although it is well known that the shortage of L2s meant they were employing L1s.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Jake43 wrote: |
| The whole point of this thread is that people can't easily get the L2 qual from BASI to teach in Scotland so they are making there own. |
I'm in favour of a range of qualifications to meet a range of needs, so I think this is a good development, providing the new SSS awards are recognised by the ski schools in the Scottish resorts so that the people who attain these qualifications can use them for getting work (although I did see a post on Facebook earlier today which might cast doubt on that). Simply pointing out that it's not correct to say that BASI qualifications don't get you work in Scotland or France. It's up to the people who want to work as instructors to decide whether these new SSS qualifications are suitable for what they want to do.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@rob@rar, I wouldn't read too much in to that FB post. The centres were probably asked to keep it confidential until the official announcement. I suspect they have been pushing for it with SSS. As one cynic says on that post they are probably looking at the new qual as a way of reducing pay. That may or may not be true. 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Gaza, I'm sure you're right. I couldn't work out from the FB post whether the guy had written to the ski schools (which you'd hope would be keen for these new qualifications) or the the lift companies (which might not have any interest in instructor qualifications at all).
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Instructing or coaching, why would I do the new quali and still not use my ASL/ SBL when I am directed by my employer. Ski schools are always looking for BASI L2 thro' the season. Perhaps the ski areas will be paying a lot less money for the new qualification.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@rob@rar, maybe I am not wording it very well as I did not want to write war and peace. It would be easier to have a conversation over a beer, as I guess we agree on a lot of things. But it is too far for me to come down there and have a lesson/chat/beer. Also written things often get blown out of the original meaning and can end up in arguments. What never on Snowheads. 
Sorry I did not mean to say a L2 could not get work in Scotland. But my comment of BASI L2 qualified people is that they can't afford to work in Scotland on zero hr contract at near minimum wage - other than doing it part time on the back of another job. The cost for getting L2 is huge in both time and money and then they need to do the shadow hours too - this is to be applauded as it does get a well qualified person at the end. I have no issues with the BASI courses just what happens to those qualified on L2. Wages do not match qualifications. So hence there maybe vacancies in Scotland which their new SSS qual could address.
However, if you then want a proper job doing just ski instructing there are very few of those available. Including yourself from the look of it, and I raise my hat to your commitment to achieve it. But honestly how many other BASI L2 do you know who, would have loved to work as an instructor, but can't afford to.
So hopefully the SSS qual will be right sized for the part time people who want to work in the industry - at as no doubt @Gaza, pointed out even lower pay.
My daughter CSIA L2 qualified with experience, contacted all the English indoor slopes for a job this summer (obviously it is there quieter times for employment) no chance. She was told they had loads of applicants who they could take their pick from and would be hiring from previous staff. She had spoken to our local one for the previous winter and nope full, with nothing in plan going forward. So unless you know differently, my opinion is there are very very few full time Ski Instructor vacancies in England. She is going back over to Canada instead. Note I do not think they treat the instructors much better, as they pay a pittance too - so she has to work 2 jobs to afford to live. I have often wondered how when you pay $450 for a day private lesson, the instructor gets less than $100 of it. Mountain operation already has the lift ticket price from you so where does they rest go?
BIL is also BASI L2 Qualified and teaches 2 hrs a week at Edinburgh. They have 2 full time people only, and they do loads of other things too to pad out the hours. But he is happy with the 2 hrs a week as he has a "proper job" and does not want to work at weekends.
Hence what I was trying to say in my original comment, that BASI qualifications are possibly now wrong and SSS may have got it right. It seems to me that to get L2 is too expensive to teach part time. Especially if you do not live near a hill with other work to pay the bills and it seems it is no good for you in France either [I do not know much about this other than what I read as I have no direct knowledge]. BASI now seem to fall in between requirements. i.e. most teaching is to beginners in this country where L1 is fine and for France you need L3+
Maybe it is just me being too close to someone who really does want to make a go of Ski Instructing as a career and is struggling. So I am really only writing as a warning that L2 is no guarantee of a job and that a lower qualification could be much more use. Equally you as a BASI qualified person could know a lot more than I do.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| snowrider wrote: |
| Jake43 wrote: |
| Is this them getting ready not to be part of Britain ? Maybe BASI will move south.... |
No this is them meeting the needs of the Scottish market because BASI dont. The Scottish snow centres are employing BASI 1s and Ski Leaders to work outside their remit because they cant get enough BASI 2s due to needing to do 15 days of courses before they can start working. This is a more flexible modular system. |
+1
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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@Jake43, OK, I understand. I agree that having a full-time job instructing is a difficult thing to achieve, and for those who want to teach on a part-time basis they should carefully consider what qualifications are necessary for them to do that. Pointless having high level qualifications if the jobs you can get (and the pay rates) don't demand it.
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I don't think its about the mountain areas reducing pay, its about them not employing people outside the remit of their qualification. While not illegal its a bit of a sticky one from an insurance point of view.
It also makes it more accessible for people who live near one of the mountain centres as they can do the Instructor, do 30 hours shadowing and then do 40 hours real teaching of beginners before going to the Advanced Instructor. If they go down the BASI route they have to do the Level 1, 35 hours shadowing and then find another 35 hours before they can do the Level 2. For this second 35 hours they can either do more shadowing, work outside their remit (which BASI may not accept) or travel some distance to do the hours working on an artificial slope.
SSS are planning to run most courses over several weekends rather than Monday to Friday which most BASI courses are which again makes it more accessible for someone wanting to get qualified while doing other work / study.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Jake43 wrote: |
| Exactly but what point is BASI then. Can't get work in Scotland or France. Which must be the biggest 2 markets. |
Who says you can't get work in Scotland and France with BASI qualifications? |
Can work anywhere in world with basi L2.
Even france if you pass test technique.
My guess is that this new qual is aimed at teachers, scout leaders, youth group workers etc.
They might want a basic qual for supervising groups on scottish snow, but dont have time or money to do full L2?
Remember basi L2 requires 40 hours shadowing time, plus 3 weeks training.
Not many volunteers or casual instructors can justify that.
BASI still have role to play in developing instructors for both scotland and abroad.
As do the home nation associations - whose role is to devlop participation and young talent.
Last edited by After all it is free  on Wed 26-08-15 17:26; edited 1 time in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Jake43 wrote: |
| Is this them getting ready not to be part of Britain ? Maybe BASI will move south.... |
BASI already operate in international market.
*IF* scotland ever became independent I dont think it would make any difference.
Just one more country to operate in?
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It has long frustrated me that if you only want to teach in the UK there is no teaching qualification above a BASI 1/ SSS ASSI/ SSE ASSI without going to the Alps and spending time and money on a BASI 2. Yes, there is the coaching pathway route, but that is different to teaching recreational skiers. As has been pointed out, most instructors in the UK are not doing it full time, so BASI 2 is an unrealistic expense, and courses running Monday to Friday make it hard for people who then have to use annual leave from their day job to go on them. BASI do have a course aimed at these people, the UKAI course, but it seems to be very badly publicised, no-one has ever heard of it, and as a result very few of them run.
So what SSS are doing seems a sensible plan, although it still doesn't really help us down south! In fact, having done a SSS ASSI at Aldershot over ten years ago, getting a SSS refresher has always been a nightmare - it's a long way from Guildford to Scotland!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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karin, Snowsport England offers two levels above ASSI that are for teaching recreational skiers, there are descriptions here.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@rjs, I realise there is a level 3 and a level 4, but as the description says, they are coach qualifications, aimed at working with people on a long term basis, not individual lessons. If people are working on a long term basis on an artificial slope they are almost certainly going to be racing (or freestyle), which isn't my definition of a rec skier.
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karin, The development coach qualifications have nothing to do with racing or freestyle, they are for working with recreational skiers. Coach 4 is not restricted to working on artificial slopes, they can work on snow too.
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You know it makes sense.
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They have tidied up some of the anomalies but it is still not clear so I've written to them today and asked:-
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As a recently qualified BASI L1 I am working through my 35 hours shadowing and expect to be a full L1 by the end of September. My interpretation of what is on the website is that my full L1 will be considered the equivalent of the SSS Instructor Award and therefore I can go straight in to the Advanced course. However; what I am not clear on is the areas highlighted below:-
Pre-course requirements - 17 years old, hold SSS Instructor Award or equivalent*, 10 days snowsports experience in the Scottish Mountains, 40 hours logged and verified instructing experience. These hours are required to be verified by the Snowsports School Director and logged with the SSS office by email. A licence will only be issued to those over 18 and with all supporting documents in place. *
1. What s the definition of “10 days snowsports experience in the Scottish Mountains”? I have skied many times in Scotland, does this count or does it have to be snowsports instructing/leading? If it is the latter does it have to be post the BASI L1 qualification and pre taking the Advanced Course?
2. Do the 35 hours of shadowing following the BASI course count towards this or is it an additional 40 hours instructing post full qualification before the Advanced course can be taken? |
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| karin wrote: |
| @rjs, I realise there is a level 3 and a level 4, but as the description says, they are coach qualifications, aimed at working with people on a long term basis, not individual lessons. If people are working on a long term basis on an artificial slope they are almost certainly going to be racing (or freestyle), which isn't my definition of a rec skier. |
L3 and 4 SSE coaches (NOT UKCP) are working with recreational skiers.
I work at Hemel and have been working with some of my clients for 4 years now. Some instructors do "coach" clients on a long term basis!
SSE call their L3 and 4 qualifications within the instructor pathway Coaches.
This is just a bit confusing as the UKCP COACHING pathway IS for racers or Freestyle/freeride and is for competition.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@scooby_simon, Ok, I didn't realise that. The initial wording implies otherwise so I never looked any further. As you say, confusing!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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This is looking less attractive all the time. If we compare like for like this is what you see:-
BASI L1 to L2 Requirement: 35 hours instructing/shadowing post full L1 license award. This can be in any location (including snowdomes and dry slopes) – 2 week (10 day) course.
SSS Instructor (BASI L1 accepted) to Advance Instructor: 10 days snowsports experience in the Scottish Mountains (not checked/verified), 40 hours logged and verified mountain instructing experience – 6 day course.
The 40 hours Mountain instructing experience makes it hugely unattractive compared to the L1 to L2 route. I’ve pointed this out to SSS but they don’t agree. It appears the effort to achieve the SSS is about the same as achieving an L2 but the SSS qualification is only going to be valid in the UK.
If I have missed something then please correct me.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I was also unsure about the target people for this qualification. Is it for people to make extra cash, a young aspiring professional skier, the teacher /youth worker.
As a teacher/youth worker a leader qualification is all that is required by my employers. I see no need to spend extra time and money on a local qualification.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Stephen59 wrote: |
I was also unsure about the target people for this qualification. Is it for people to make extra cash, a young aspiring professional skier, the teacher /youth worker.
As a teacher/youth worker a leader qualification is all that is required by my employers. I see no need to spend extra time and money on a local qualification. |
The snowsport scotland instructor makes sense for volunteers or parents who wish to help out with clubs or school groups etc in scottish resorts. So arguably there is a niche for this qual in scotland. The BASI L1 can only be used on dry slope.
Historically there has been some politics in UK skiing.
A longstanding question of if we should we have a single UK snowsport organisation?
Or should we have seperate BASI, home nation associations, ski club GB and british race team (etc).
Make your own mind up.... I can see arguments for both view points. Though clearly different requirements need to be considered
@gaza. I would agree that the snowsport scotland "advanced" seems like a pointless qualification.
If you are serious about teaching then much better to do BASI L2, which has international recognition.
Plus there is also a progression in the system if required.
Of course the 10 days and teaching hours are all what make contribute to make it such a well thought of qualification.
Plus you could do it on cairngorm.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Haggis_Trap, at the age of 49 years, 11 months and 3 weeks, I can't see myself going abroad to teach.  For many of the same reasons I did my L1 I was considering doing my L2. Initially I was encouraged by the SSS qualifications but once I looked in to it more and had clarification from SSS, I decided it is pointless. I can't see why anyone would want to put just as much effort, and if not more, in to getting a lesser qualification. I think they have seriously misjudged their market.
40 logged hours would likely necessitate at least 8 days at a Scottish resort and as the qualification requires mountain instructing experience (no mention of shadowing), you would need to find a centre to employ you. I can't see that being too easy and even if you did find an employer, they would be looking for some sort of commitment. With a wife and young son to think about I can't make that commitment. However, nipping up to Hillend or over to Braehead to do a mix of teaching or shadowing is much easier for me.
I really do not think SSS have considered all the angles on this. If the aim was to increase the numbers of L2 equivalents qualified to teach at Scottish resorts by creating a pathway that is easier to follow than BASI, then I think they have failed.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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I think you are looking at this slightly the wrong way.
The reason the BASI L2 is time consuming to achieve is because it is a worthwhile and respected qualification ?
As mentioned I can see a requirement and obvious market for the "SSS instructor" qualification.
Especially as the plan seems to be to run them at weekends / holidays on snow at the Scottish resorts ?
Way back in the late 1990s I did the old Snowsport Scotland ASSI course as my first qualification (which gave exemption from BASI L1).
Though would agree with you that time / money spent getting the "SSS advanced" qualification would probably be better spent getting the BASI L2.
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incidentally the BASI UK advanced instructor qualification is worth a look (and a new option).
basically it only takes 5 days to do on a dry slope / dome.
plus you can then go straight onto the BASI L2 5 day reassessment - rather than doing the whole 10 day course.
....however it can't be used on snow in the Scottish resorts.
http://www.basi.org.uk/content/alpine-ski-uk-advanced-instructor.aspx
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
I think you are looking at this slightly the wrong way.
The reason the BASI L2 is time consuming to achieve is because it is a worthwhile and respected qualification ? |
I agree 100% and wasn't suggesting otherwise.
| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| Though would agree with you that time / money spent getting the "SSS advanced" qualification would probably be better spent getting the BASI L2. |
Again, I agree with you 100%. This is the point I am making. I don't see the point in SSS Advanced when the pre-requisites seem to be more arduous than BASI L2.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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^ yip.
though to be fair the SSS "advanced" course is only 6 days.
and the plan seems to be that it will run over weekends <etc>
though I agree that a full BASI L2 is more worthy.
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FAQ
