@foxtrotzulu, do they exist? Winter tyres being intended (I would have thought) at road users. Off road, M&S surely actually does come into its own? If you're not off road, you don't want off road tyres, full stop I'd think??
Surely the obvious point is that even the dedicated green landers probably drive more on the road than they do off it and, around here even if not on Chelsea, most SUV drivers do actually need to use their vehicles off road. Whatever the ratio, the point remains that I want tyres that will do a reasonably good job in the mud off-road but can also be sensibly used on road too. General Grabber AT tyres are a good example of this. The question comes what happens in winter. Most AT tyres are M+S, but they are not winter tyres and have no better grip in the winter than anything else.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
speed098 wrote:
@foxtrotzulu, When I started driving many years ago I was always told offroad tyres are not suitable on road for the following reasons in no particular order.
More tyre/tread movement generates more heat and results in quicker tyre wear.
Less actual rubber in contact with the road surface compared with a road tyre so not as good under braking etc etc.
More tyre noise than a road tyre.
More sidewall movement again as above issues reduces performance on road and safety.
It was (back then taken a tyre good in the mud could handle snow, now with more modern tyre designs it may well be that a dedicated snow tyre will perform better in given situations but equally they are still designed for road use more so than a offroad tyre.
You're right that the more off-roady a tyre is the less well suited it is for on-road, but there are many great compromise tyres. But they don't seem to come in a winter variant. BTW, not sure when you started driving but over the years our 'standard' UK tyres have included less and less rubber and become much harder. A standard tyre from 40 years ago would have been pretty good in cold weather. They aren't nowadays.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
A friend with his new Audi 4x4 company car said he was taking the more direct but shorter route back from an Austrian ski touring trip (Salzburg to Vienna). We set off in a FWD car with high quality winter tyres and took the longer route. After an hour we gave him a call expecting him to be in front of us but he'd got stuck behind someone else on the small less well cleared back roads.
4WD is really useful when you travel roads alone - e.g. private road that isn't cleared so often or you set off early (to work or ski touring trips) when there is less traffic and the roads may not have been cleared or kept clear with traffic. 4WD is also useful if you have a steep approach road to tackle in winter (e.g. live in resort). Most People this end of the Alps get away with FWD and good quality winter tyres. Some buy top quality all-season tyres with the snowflake symbol.
Although the front wheels of a FWD car start to spin much earlier (ESP flashing etc) than a 4WD system I find this a useful indicator of just how slippy the roads are so I can back off a bit. Suspect the big SUV's don't realise just how slippy the roads are until they hit the corners / brakes at speed.
In 15 winter seasons here at the eastern end of the Alps I've never "needed" 4WD although I've had to take a second run up or get the snow chains out a handful of times.
@DB, our two cars since moving out have been Nissans with AWD. Very rarely does the 4WD light come on, and very rarely (other than getting out of our drive) do I need to engage the lock.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
under a new name wrote:
@msej449, how did you know what the other cars' tyres were? I find it difficult enough to read the markings on mine while stationary...
The problem in my experience is that the road you kindly posted a picture of doesn't have enough snow on it for snow chains to do anything much other than destroy the tarmac, but enough snow on it that summer tyres will be rubbish. Summer tyre us and snow chain use don't overlap if you draw a Venn diagram on where they're useful...
@Posidrive, while I agree with much of what you say, in terms of driving strategy, many of us SHs live (or spend much time) in the alps where we routinely drive in conditions that the AA would have you tucked under a duvet if encountered in the UK. The Jura picture above, f'r instance, is a light dusting. And as I understand it, "all-season" or M&S tyres are not adequate, compared to proper snow tyres.
I think that Raceplate hit the nail on the head. Not all all seasons tyres are created equal. Also not all 4wd and awd systems are created equal. 4 years of winter driving with a single twitchy spincter moment definitely showed that a subaru and proper all seasons is a good combo for most conditions. I'd rather have good quality all seasons than cheap winter tyres.
Some other car options with 4WD at cheaper prices.
Skoda Yeti
Nissan Quashqi
Both have 4WD options available.
Vauxhall Mokka again some models I think from the Tech line up have 4WD.
You get benefit of 4WD but better fuel eco than the big traditional 4x4's. Don't think any can handle true offroad though but the muddy lane a field and snow they should be more than capable.
The video above is probably the best I have seen showing the difference between drive systems and tyres so really if you want reliability for snow conditions 4WD with a set of snow tyres for winter is best.
I am surprised we have not started disccusing Torsen VS Haldex pros and cons of the 4x4
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
ok so a bit of perspective from the Frozen North....
(though we live in the slightly more frozen bit of the less frozen bit of the frozen bit, in the winter I do volunteer myself to drive 200Km's a weekend to and from the frozen wasteland that is whistler on quite a windy road)
Most SUVs probably suck, having 4/AWD is does not mean good snow and ice performance. If I had the choice I'd go for a Subaru Impreza or Outback (maybe you can still get a Legacy?) or Audi Allroad.
Our Subaru rocks on snow and ice. It has proper non-cheap winter tires in the winter. I am fairly convinced it is the best car made for here and by the number around many people would agree. Fuel economy is the price to pay.
My F150 doesn't rock on the snow ice anything like as much. Even with incredibly good and expensive winter tires it is a handful on ice. That said it has the (primitive) 4wd, ground clearance, electronic aids, diff locks, and low ratios to get it out of places most cars (including the Subaru) would be properly stuck.
I only need this to get me up my friends drive, if the highway was like this it would be closed or I would turn back
Though when some super low profile summer tire clad BMW slides across the snowy road into me, I'd rather take my chances in my 3 tonne truck any day (as unfortunately proven by some other similar car-truck getting togethers )
After all it is free
After all it is free
@Posidrive, I may have been misleading (or confused myself) - M&S tyres used to be referred to as "all season" (I thought?) but shouldn't be confused with the genuine "all season" tyres brought out recently that claim more or less equivalent performance to summer and winter tyres in one black donut shape.
@stuarth, I suspect that the main problem with your F150 might simply be those 3 tonnes of mass (inertia). Not sure why most SUVs would suck other than the fact that many of your local examples are also enormously large and heavy, compared to European ones. Our SUV certainly doesn't suck but you do have to be aware of its weight when descending slopes...
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
@under a new name, the inertia doesn't help but the real problem with an F150 is it's a pick up so the weight distribution is heavily biased to the front. Stick half a tonne of sand in the back and it'll be 50/50 with two passengers and handle much better.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
@Raceplate, good point
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
@under a new name,
Bit of a generalization there. Think you'll find most of the SUVs here are about the same size and weight as SUVs there (in fact mostly the same); trucks are an exception obviously, but still are not that much heavier. The problem with trucks in the ice is as pointed out above one of weight distribution, rear wheel drive (4wd is part-time) and high center of gravity. I try and balance it out in winter with half a tonne of skis
Subarus and Audis (and a few others) outperform most SUVs because they have proper 4 wheel drive and do not have high centre of gravity.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@stuarth, maybe what I'm thinking of as SUVs you call a truck?
But I'm not sure what a higher centre of mass has to do with it? General driving dynamics, yes, on snow/ice performance not so much?
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Quote:
But I'm not sure what a higher centre of mass has to do with it? General driving dynamics, yes, on snow/ice performance not so much?
I'd think that at the margin, higher com = more body roll = less grip on bends
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
One nasty think about snow tyres is that some insurers class them as a modification. A few yeas ago I has a brief moment of madness thinking about taking my Nissan 350z to the alpes, with snow tyres. My insurer wanted an extra £200 for the modification
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Posidrive wrote:
One nasty think about snow tyres is that some insurers class them as a modification. A few yeas ago I has a brief moment of madness thinking about taking my Nissan 350z to the alpes, with snow tyres. My insurer wanted an extra £200 for the modification
heard about this trick - how could it be at all possible, surely compying with legal requirements takes precedent over such strange clauses? Of course if tyres are kept within paramethers prescribed by the car manufacturer (usualy indicated on a metalic plate or sticker that is visible when you open drivers door) - size, load and speed index respected and that should be fine.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
This 'modification' trick has just about played out now: Of course, the insurers were happy to try anything on and their reps taking the call were often poorly-paid call-centre operators reading from a script. If they could get away with extra charging they would, until the brighter ones realised they could snatch business away from competitors by not charging. Last winter saw a general announcement from all the main insurers that they wouldn't charge. You can check it out on their industry website:
"Motor insurers recognise that some motorists may wish to fit winter tyres to their car during cold weather. Motor insurers recognise that, whilst no substitute for common sense driving, winter tyres can have a positive impact on improving road safety. To assist in reducing potential uncertainty, the ABI has produced a commitment setting out the position of a number of named motor insurers in respect of the impact on insurance premiums of fitting winter tyres to your car."
It's important to check the list of insurers as some require that you inform them if winter tyres are fitted even though there is no effect on premiums or cover. To translate "British car insurers acknowledge that winter tyres are a great improvement in winter conditions, but customers must appreciate that we can't let the opportunity pass to try and sell you something else, charge more for something that reduces accident risk etc. You're obviously a demographic that has money to spare to buy quality winter tyres and we'd like a bit of that action, thank you very much."
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Hells Bells wrote:
Fiat Panda 4x4
When it comes to snow and a hill to climb a Panda 4x4 really is an unstoppable beast, some might say a true mountain goat!
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
If I didn't need to cart round large numbers of other people I would definitely have gone for a Panda, they're great. But won't seat 7. Lots of very elderly Fiat Pandas to be seen round the French Alps, no matter what the conditions.
And another thing ... just to start off thesnow chains discussion a tad early this year: You might still need snow chains even if you have winter tyres because 1. you may need the extra traction in difficult conditions and 2. if the police insist you fit them. And whether you have summer, all-season, M+S or winter tyres ............
If you're potentially fitting snow chains, Check your Owner's Manual and see if the wheel and tyre fitted to your car is certified to carry chains. On my Audi the car could take chains on 16" and 17" wheels but chains were not certified for 18" and 19" wheels. When I bought my chains, all I got was the usual "They should work" and "Try them out first at home but I'm sure they'll be fine." statements.
When I looked, the 18"/19" embargo was in fact reasonable: The 18" wheels had about 30mm spare gap inside the wheel arch, between the inner tyre and the suspension/steering/brakes. Put 20/25mm chains in there and it would leave precious little space for them to flap around before fouling the mechanicals. This is why the garage said I needed to use 17" wheels for the winters, on the assumption that I might be using chains if I needed winters. The 17" wheels were also 1" narrower (across the tread: 7Jx17 versus 8Jx18, 'J' being the wheel width in inches), and most of this space was released inside not outside. So the 17" wheels released 24mm of inside space for the 25mm chains to spin and still eave a comfortable gap.
This sometimes prompts people to say that they've used chains lots of times on nominally uncertified wheels and had no problems. Well, that may be so, especially if you're RWD (where there is no steering) and if the roads you used were fairly straight. You might not be so lucky with a heavily-loaded FWD car on Alpine hairpins. Or on a RWD with a car load of people and luggage on a rough surface.
People also feed back that you can buy thin chains so as to minimise the space consumed behind the wheel, but I have heard complaints that these are more prone to snap when you corner, or if they're not fitted perfectly.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Wed 26-08-15 15:54; edited 2 times in total
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@Matrski, if I was out in the Alps for a long period it would be something I was thinking about owning. From the point of view of someone who travels there a lot, something larger is needed for the stuff we cart around which includes a German Shepherd.
@Matrski, if I was out in the Alps for a long period it would be something I was thinking about owning. From the point of view of someone who travels there a lot, something larger is needed for the stuff we cart around which includes a German Shepherd.
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
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