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Esprit childcare ratios for outings

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
We had a great holiday last March with Esprit in Peisey Les Arcs. Chalet was great, food was good, we were lucky with weather and snow too.

We have two kids, my son who was 3 (nearly 4) and my daughter who was 1 (nearly 2) at the time. We used the Esprit childcare and were generally very happy with it, especially for my son who loved his time in the Snow Club. The Snow Rangers (childcare staff) were lovely and my son was talking about them for months afterwards.

My mother-in-law was also with us and not skiing, and early in the week when my son's Snow Club group were going to be taken bumboarding away from the chalet, she went along with them, by prior arrangement with the staff. Later in the week, they went again (without my mother-in-law) but she bumped into them where they were bumboarding as she had taken my daughter on a little trip down there separately.

After she bumped into them on the second occasion, she mentioned to me that she was surprised that one Snow Ranger had taken a group of 6 children on the bumboarding trip on her own. On reflection, there had only been one member of staff on the first trip but I think she had assumed that was because she was going along with them as an extra adult. The trip involved taking the children down the road in the resort, down the open "lobster pot" lift to Peisey Nancroix and of course dealing with 6 small children (3-4 year olds) bumboarding - it's no mean feat to help to set them off and help them to stop safely at the bottom! My mother-in-law said that the Snow Ranger did seem to be having a bit of difficulty with the bumboarding but (understandably) was reluctant to let my mother-in-law help.

The following day (our last) I mentioned it to the childcare manager for the resort. She said that Esprit's ratios were 1:6 for 3-4 year olds and that they were no different for outings like bumboarding. When I got home I wrote to Esprit about it (making it clear that I was not after anything, just concerned that their policy was not safe) and they wrote back confirming what the childcare manager had told me.

Esprit have said "All of our outings are risk assessed and planned thoroughly and if an activity is ever planned that is deemed to be a risk activity then a higher staffing level would be put in place. All of our staff have resort mobiles for emergencies and if a child needs the toilet then the whole group will go. The ratios that are recommended by different organisations such as NSPCC, Ofsted and the Government are best practice requirements and not legal requirements. I note that other tour operators differ slightly but all are set under the best practice guidelines as are we. Our ratios have been set in place for a number of years and to the best of our knowledge we have not had any concerns raised by other guests in the past." They have also said that the Snow Rangers are qualified First Aiders and will have had a first aid kit with them.

I have recently written again to check whether the policy has changed because we really enjoyed our holiday with Esprit but I am certainly not happy that that ratio was safe for the outing in question and therefore have lost confidence in their risk assessment abilities. I am a governor of a nursery school and children's centre and there is no way that that centre would use a ratio of 1:6 for a comparable activity. My son is now at primary school and they used a ratio of 1:3 to take a group of children on a short bus journey to visit a fire station and back.

Of course we don't have to use Esprit, or their childcare, and I'm sure we could arrange to look after our children ourselves (gasp!) when they are planning an outing, so I'm not looking for sympathy of any sort. I am happy with Esprit's childcare generally, and their standard ratios, and the way my complaint has been dealt with. But I am keen to (a) know what other parents (and non-parents?) think about the risk assessment in this example and (b) make sure that parents who use Esprit are aware of this example of their risk assessment so that they can make an informed decision about whether they are happy with it for their children. It won't necessarily stop me using Esprit but I would certainly make sure they don't take my children out of the setting with just one member of staff for 6 children (or more, since my son is now 5 and the ratio for him will be 1:Cool.

Any thoughts?
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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NatalieG wrote:
But I am keen to (a) know what other parents (and non-parents?) think about the risk assessment in this example and (b) make sure that parents who use Esprit are aware of this example of their risk assessment so that they can make an informed decision about whether they are happy with it for their children. It won't necessarily stop me using Esprit but I would certainly make sure they don't take my children out of the setting with just one member of staff for 6 children (or more, since my son is now 5 and the ratio for him will be 1:Cool.

Any thoughts?



I think that 6:1 is fine for that activity. It's 9 : 1 if you are lucky in French ski school after all. I've been an Esprit client and have 3 children who I have been through various situations like this. I was always very happy with the safety and control aspects of Esprit.

I 'd be very concerned that your conclusions are based on a hearsay witness, your non skiing Mother in Law. I'm not sure that she has the same level of experience and qualifications that you say you have as a Governor to have adequately observed all the aspects of what was going on, and it doesn't appear that she might know the normal workings of a ski resort either.

I would also have that I'm to entirely clear what your motives regarding this are : " make sure that parents who use Esprit are aware of this example of their risk assessment so that they can make an informed decision about whether they are happy with it for their children" - perhaps you should post it up on Mumsnet?
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Any thoughts? Don't use them if you're not happy with the staff ratio. And god forbid never check them into an ESF class ( I've seen 13 to 1 on occasion).

As a company whose business model is predicated on good childcare I'm sure they've lent lots of thought to appropriate ratios.
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No accidents - no issues - no problem. The risk assessment etc works.
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If you are happy to pay for 1:3 then find a company which does this. If you want to pay less, then you have to accept the ratios will be lower.
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@mishmash,
Quote:

I 'd be very concerned that your conclusions are based on a hearsay witness, your non skiing Mother in Law. I'm not sure that she has the same level of experience and qualifications that you say you have as a Governor to have adequately observed all the aspects of what was going on, and it doesn't appear that she might know the normal workings of a ski resort either.


I'm not really basing anything on hearsay, just on the facts. We made the trip ourselves on another occasion so I know the journey they made and where they went, and I know what bumboarding is. There is the point about the staff member finding it tricky but I would still have been concerned if she hadn't said that.

Quote:

I would also have that I'm to entirely clear what your motives regarding this are : " make sure that parents who use Esprit are aware of this example of their risk assessment so that they can make an informed decision about whether they are happy with it for their children" - perhaps you should post it up on Mumsnet?


Thanks but I don't use Mumsnet and I thought I was clear about my motives. First to gauge whether my reaction was in line with general snowheads opinion - apparently not so far, which is useful to know. And as for the bit you quoted, obviously if people are happy with those ratios then that's great and there is no problem. Maybe I am particularly dippy/slack but when they said they were taking them bumboarding I didn't think to ask about the ratios and (whether I am right or not) I wouldn't have been happy with one person taking six 3 or 4 year olds so I would have kept him out of the activity or gone along with them if I'd been aware.

Good point about the skiing ratios (and I certainly wouldn't check a 3 year old into an ESF class with a 13 to 1 ratio especially if they were going outside the snow garden). Although on reflection it is not just the ratio but the absolute of one person being out on their own with the group - I'd be happier with 2 people taking 12 children.

But thanks for the feedback everyone. As I said, I don't have any problems with their ratios generally, it was just for the outside activity.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
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From the Esprit website:-

Quote:
For infants 17 weeks-12 months: 1 nanny per 2 infants
For infants 13-23 months: 1 nanny per 3 infants
For toddlers 24-40 months: 1 nanny per 4 children


For 3 -8 year olds:-

Quote:
Our Snow Ranger teams operate with our stringent care ratios of 1:8.


It would seem that in your case the ratio was better than their standard.
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After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
@Gaza, they have said in correspondence that their standard ratio for Spritelets (3-4 year olds) is 1:6 and it is 1:8 for 5+ year olds - I guess the website just isn't that detailed and there is obviously no harm providing a better ratio than advertised!
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We used Esprit for several years when our kids were little and found them excellent. However, my daughter is all grown up now and completed her first season last year. The resort, in which she worked, had a heavy Esprit presence. Her take on Esprit staff being " Rough slappers who don't even ski or board". Shocked


Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Wed 19-08-15 21:49; edited 2 times in total
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Mollerski wrote:
Her take on Esprit staff being " Rough slappers who don't even ski or board". Shocked


Isn't that just the general description of ski resort nannies rather than Esprit staff particularly (our own skinanny obviously excepted as she skis very well etc etc..better stop digging)
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An ESF instructor (whether male or female) is likely to be much more physically able, fit and strong than an Esprit nanny but will often have 12 kids out on a mountain. I'd not be bothered about a 1:6 ratio for bumboarding, which is not a particularly dangerous activity. I have taken littlies bumboarding (though not 6 at a time, and on an unpaid basis) and my only stipulation is they must wear a helmet. If they have to keep walking back up the slope themselves that wears them out quite quickly, I find. From my personal experience I'd say a small child on a bike in a skatepark is much more likely to injure herself than a child on a suitable slope with a bumboard. My 3 year old grand-daughter came a mighty cropper the other day - the fact that both her parents were sitting on the sidelines really didn't help.

I don't see any need for Esprit staff taking kids bumboarding or walking them back and forth to ski school to be skiers or boarders - rather more important that they have experience of childcare, I'd say.
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pam w wrote:


I don't see any need for Esprit staff taking kids bumboarding or walking them back and forth to ski school to be skiers or boarders -.


What about slappers?
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We've used Espirit since the kids came along and have never had any reason to fault their attention to the children. Having spoken to the nannies it's true they are not hired on their ability to ski, but most learn on the job - I do know of one 'Ranger' (they go out with the instructors with the kids to play tail-end-charlie to the group) who was having trouble keeping up with the 5-YO group so got swapped out with another staffer.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
No problem with slappers provided they're good with kids.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Just give it 10 years or so and precious little Jemimahhh or Tabithaaaahhh will be slappin' it with the best of them down at the Mooser or the Folie D.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Richard_Sideways wrote:
Just give it 10 years or so and precious little Jemimahhh or Tabithaaaahhh will be slappin' it with the best of them down at the Mooser or the Folie D.


Don't please. My 'Tabitha' is 19 and beginning her second season in Dec. Confused
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Most of the Snow Rangers in VdI and Belle Plane were very competent skiers. They saw the job as giving them more of an opportunity to ski than on other ski jobs and if they were with Intermediate or Advanced groups they got to ski at a reasonable level and often get hints and tips from the instructors.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@Mollerski, She'll be FINE, She won't go ANYWHERE NEAR Jagermeister and WILL NOT attract the attention of Fast Pierre...
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Richard_Sideways wrote:
@Mollerski, She'll be FINE, She won't go ANYWHERE NEAR Jagermeister and WILL NOT attract the attention of Fast Pierre...


The genie may already be out of the bottle I fear. Confused
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Quote:

From my personal experience I'd say a small child on a bike in a skatepark is much more likely to injure herself than a child on a suitable slope with a bumboard. My 3 year old grand-daughter came a mighty cropper the other day - the fact that both her parents were sitting on the sidelines really didn't help.


@pam w, agreed. But my concern is not so much that a child gets a bump (mine are generally covered in bruises from bikes, falling over etc anyway), but whether the other 5 kids can be kept safe while the sole adult is dealing with the bumped child. Having a first aid kit and necessary training is fine for dealing with the injured child but there is no-one to look after the others while that is happening. Hopefully all the 3-4 year olds would be well enough behaved to wait nicely but what if one is a bolter?

Esprit's response is that all staff would have a resort phone and would call for backup and maybe that would be ok but in this case it was some distance from base. I would be surprised if someone else would be able to get there within 15-20 mins (although someone with better knowledge/recollection of the area might correct me)and that was a concern for me.
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I can't imagine anywhere you'd be likely to take such little kids bumboarding where there wouldn't be plenty of help readily available.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
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A parent walking with a couple of kids in the Brecon Beacons would be much more vulnerable. But the solution is easy, isn't it? If you don't trust others to look after your kids, look after them yourself!
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
@pam w, yes, I did say something to that effect in my OP but I am interested in others' points of view, for example your point about walking in the Brecon Beacons has given me something to think about. As a poster whose opinions I generally agree with and tend to trust, I was interested to know what you thought about my "yes but" point above - and now I do.

Thanks again for all feedback. And none of the childcare staff seemed like slappers to me, by the way. Don't know about skiing ability but it certainly didn't matter for our two who weren't on the slopes.
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In water sports (Dinghy sailing) the ratio is 1:12 children or 1:6 boats... But that's for children aged >8.
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good point, @marcellus - and dinghy sailing is a fair bit more hazardous. Accidents can happen, whatever the precautions and it doesn't mean, if they do, that the risks were too great. A friend was the Senior Instructor on a session on a confined, shallow, pond when a child lost an eye. A horrible accident, nobody's fault. There was a senior RYA examiner there on the day, as it happens, and no question that the session was anything other than properly run.
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