Very much like your views on dealing with problems of Swiss franc

A snowHead

Even on times when the CHF/ £ exchange rate was not such an issue Swiss customer service and attitude towards tourists was pretty abject and lacking compared with say Austria, I only ever really found one place in Switzerland where we were made to feel truly welcome, this being a Dutch run family hotel in Nendaz, however the inter-family disputes that exist within the 4V area are strangling this resorts access to its Siviez entry into main 4V and the Swiss ski model needs to learn from its neighbours in Austria IMO that disputes can be solved via negotiation, and service can be improved by learning from others rather than strangling development via alleged inter-family disputes (eg also Zermatt).

With respect - It's more than the price of milk and bread, I know food will be expensive when I go anywhere, its more to do with service and value for money and best bang for my hard-earned overall, and I much prefer spending my money with locals who appreciate my money and provide me with a fantastic ski experience/ via continued investment etc. A reccy trip to Arlberg might be a good plan?

One caveat to the above - The Swiss super-rich model of Klosters/ Grindelwald/ St Moritz works just fine, if folk want that then these resorts will clearly continue to thrive, however mere mortals in my view will go where they get an improved service level and for me that isn't Swiss ski resorts like Verbier right now.

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@rob@rar, understandable

I wouldn't be at all surprised if the big-name resorts were capitalising on their names - Zermatt, Verbier etc. - but is anywhere else any different?

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

Valais,

I've skied in a lot of places around Europe but not in the Valais. It's been on our list for an off season long weekend but we never made it. Having bought a place last year I'm out of the market for a little while. But to give you some feedback:

1 a week with skiing and ski repair and maintenance workshops, with specialist technicians in support. Ski day one, repair skis 8-10am, go out wreck the bases on sharky slopes, another repair workshop on day 3 and 5. QUITE INTERESTED IN LEARNING SKI MAINTENANCE BUT NOT CUTTING INTO SKI TIME

2 Avalanche training - full training days in a very demanding off piste area, miles from anywhere. Full briefing on meteo, avoiding risk, access to pisteurs for discussions and observations, then out on the hill digging snow pits and reading slopes, as well as saving the lives of buried transceivers... YES, LONG WEEKEND EVEN BETTER

3 intro to ski touring, with guides to a couple of overnight stays in huts YES

4 a normal skiing week but with full access to all he resorts' facilities - time with lifties whilst closing up, up early to blast the slopes, an evening on piste bashers NOT REALLY

5 a normal week but with race prep, and then full timed, long downhill, not dangerous gs, but 8km timed downhill run where small difference in technique can make a big difference POSSIBLY BUT WEEK TOO LONG GIVEN FAMILY COMMITMENTS

6 clinics for those recovering from injury. Instructors especially committed to rehabilitation from injury, medical advice avaiable through the week, physios on tap. COULD IMAGINE THIS BUT FORTUNATELY DON'T NEED IT - TOUCH WOOD. WOULD NUMBERS EVER BE ENOUGH?

7 very small group tuition - intensive work in the morning, practice in the afternoon COULD BE FOR 2-3 DAYS. NEED TO BE CONFIDENT LEVEL WOULD BE RIGHT/CONSISTENT

8 guiding support rather than instruction. Stay in small village, accompanied from arrival in valley, immediate kit supply, help to resort on first day, all passes waiting, guiding support through day, shown all the secret ways and places in resort. NOT REALLY - THINK PEOPLE WHO WANT TRUE GUIDING CAN PROBABLY FIND THEIR OWN WAY TO / AROUND RESORT

Other stuff? I still think an underserved market is young families. A set up with excellent child care for non-skiing, just beginning children that allows (logistically) parents to ski for a couple of hours then drop back in to see the kids before getting out skiing again really appealed to us when our kids were small. Ideally it needs ski-in / ski-out or excellent car service to and from lifts. Great thing is that it can work in the low season outside school holidays

After all it is free

@eng_ch, no, I think big name resorts in all the countries are expensive.

The market has to be the judge. If the product is what people want, they will pay for it.

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We get that CH may not be actively involved in a conspiracy to rip people off but for those that run tourist related businesses it's no good moaning about overheads being high and numbers down. I doubt even the most ethical of tourists who is happy to pay a premium for sustainable initiatives in say Africa or Latin America has too much sympathy for an asset rich hotelier in a country with some of the highest living standards in the world.

Something needs to change in the Swiss model - Maybe that means only targeting the very wealthy ( but be aware they can be fickle or fashion driven) or something else. At this stage it's not enough to be as good as other alternatives if you want the volume you need positive points of diffentiation e.g. I might be tempted with unconditional guarantees of getting me to resort by public transport no matter how much my plane was delayed kinda like a AA for visitors or e.g. communes agreeing to reserve a certain number of beds to be guaranteed available for long weekenders.

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I think the suggestion of targeting the English speaking market rather than just the Brits may also be an option. Until very recently I was a member of a North American based ski forum. When they come to the Alps to ski it's a big deal for them. They like the idea of classic alpine resorts and the "romance" of Switzerland features high on their lists. What you need to know is how expensive some aspects of North American skiing can be and therefore how much less it costs than expected in Switzerland. Lift passes are more expensive than Switzerland. private lessons are pure extortion in the USA (my stepson last season in Squaw Valley was charged out at $699 per day and that was without the tip ar around 15-20% that all Americans expect to have to pay on top). My impression is that many Americans ar a bit frightened of going skiing in a non English speaking country. Many will never have done so, and worry about catching trains, buying lift passes, and just being out of the god ol' Us of A. Give them bags of hand holding, market the romance and hopefully they'll come!

Is it possible/worthwhile hedging your exposure? Sell your holidays in £, buy some Swiss Franc/£ for next year and package up some forward interest rate against it? If the Swiss France roofs, you're covered, if it dumps you may well sell a lot more holidays to Switzerland in £?

You know it makes sense.

^ This is just another way of targeting a price insensitive segment and it's a limited strategy that doesn't really help the smaller places the OP is talking about. For Yanks Zermatt is an easy sell then maybe Vernier but after that they'd rather be somewhere else iconic like Cham, VDI, Arlberg, Kitzbuhel, 3V etc.

Plus the type of US skier that would come to CH isn't stupid. They're probably those skiing all winter on a season pass for the price of a few day passes and more than capable of working their own value equation.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

....some really good stuff in the response from everyone, and some real material for developing response in resort. Just working madly on a big report but will pick up some of detail points re rental costs the moment I can....probably tomorrow pm ... But thanks indeed for taking the issue seriously and giving open comment.

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@JanA, not so much.

We are somewhat careful as to limits, which are annoyingly, only very restrictive when it comes to meat, esp. pork. And there are two of us in the car which gets a global limit of 300 CHFs each.

Since the implementation of Schengen, most borders are uncontrolled (unless they're waiting to arrest Bosnian war criminals or coke smugglers) and some of them are so unpatrolled it's barely funny (mostly I imagine because know one knows they exist). So sometimes we take the risk. Our nearest border has a handy roundabout just before it so if it's manned, we scoop round to the next one. We've only been caught once, with a washing machine because the Swiss don't market or sell the very particular size we required cueing a very entertaining conversation when the (male) douanier looked at us with great askance on production of that excuse while the (female) douanier giggled, admitted she'd had exactly the same problem and had "smuggled" the same machine in just the previous week.

Bern explicitly requested residents to shop abroad a couple of years ago to help weaken the currency. Some increases in the limits you can carry have been put in place, notably for wine.

And if you're transiting CH from EU to EU and can show adequate justification, they'll probably let you away with it if it's obviously a family's supplies for the week. We have been checked a few times with commercial quantities of IKEA frippery and the "it's quicker to transit through France on the motorway and the final destination is back in CH" was fine.

It always helps if you do declare in advance what you're doing...

Funniest question I ever have had from a (French, as they don't rotate them quite so much and we were becoming firm friends during our house renovation) douaniesse who asked, "Just how many bathrooms does one house need?" She felt more than two for a single family was excess bordering on insanity.

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We have an import export business and people often don't realise just how much exchange rates can affect businesses. We generally import from the states an export to the Eurozone. The strong Dollar and weak Euro pretty much took away our profit margin over the winter. So much so, I couldn't really afford to go on the End of Season Bash. Now that's hardship!
Electronic banking has made it far more convenient for the average person to move their money about making things more unstable.

Skiing is expensive but amazing value considering the vast infrastructures that have to put 7000 feet up a mountain for an industry that often only really operates for 12 weeks a year.

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I bet you can't guess when my last trip to Switzerland was Evil or Very Mad

I've been visiting now for a good few years: Davos, Flims, Cran but mainly Verbier.

Last year was a killer price wise and even though I am a nerdy minority skiier who would be interested in ski clinics, ski tuning courses, introduction to touring etc, I was saying that I'd be looking at other countries for the forseable just due to overall price.

I was in Tignes in March and Val T in April after my Verbier trip last year; and they felt very good value for money by comparison.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

@under a new name, Your examples above just goes to demonstrate what a strange place CH-Land really is. In simplistic terms the country wants it cake and also to be able to eat it. It has gone it alone, wants to be a land-locked stand-alone economy surrounded by Eurozone and the financial benefits and choice that that offers and turns a blind-eye to those who choose to shop outside its own boundaries, and also now when its tourist customer base has disowned it due to financial considerations because it's currency is too strong it shakes its head in disbelief and cant understand it, and wonders how to get it back?.........maybe time for a reality check, the Russian oligarch ski fraternity might be the best bet?

Curious after reading yesterdays thread I went on line last night and did a quick costing on a week we have planned in early March 16.....at least 50% dearer going to Verbier than Arlberg, no brainer, the decision didn't take long!

After all it is free

I spent a very nice week in La Tzoumaz this year. I didn't find the exchange rate made it much more expensive than going to Argentiere. The biggest problem with 4 Valleys is they aren't really linked. This means that once you have got to an area there isn't really much time to explore it - you spend most of the day getting there and back. In future I will definitely consider hiring a car to avoid this problem.
It was disappointing that most bars and restaurants serve Heineken instead of a locally-produced beer - I always like to eat and drink local produce.
The other problem was the lack of fresh snow - not exactly their fault! They must be due better next season as they have now had 3 below-average years on the trot according to the chalet-owners we stayed with. I will definitely return - particularly as the chalet was fantastic.

Some thought-provoking insights in this thread. As a small business (just my husband and I) managing around 50 self-catering properties in La Tzoumaz we are currently putting together a package that we believe would be attractive to skiers in the low-season. We note the comments about hidden costs and are going to include 7 nights accommodation, 6-day lift-passes for Verbier's 4-Valleys, 5 days of on/off-piste expert guiding/tuition, airport transfers, continental breakfasts in the chalet/apartment, lunches on the slopes, afternoon tea in an apres-ski bar, and group dinners in the evenings with optional basic entertainment (skiing movie/quiz night etc). We note the comments about solo skiers and will be able to offer no (or very low) single supplements in both 3 and 4-star group chalets and apartments. Based on the last 3 years of snow history, we're going to start with the week of 16-23 Jan 2016 to be sure we can enjoy the massive off-piste opportunities, then as we fill the 70 places, we'll kick off further weeks in Jan or March 2016. Value for money is a key concern and so we are working hard to negotiate deals with the service providers but have not yet finalised the price. If this would interest you, what would you consider the right price for us to target in order for you to sign up?

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@4valleesfan, My benchmark for a low season TO HB package is £400 plus lift pass so let's say that people will be able to get on the snow for around £700 for a week including equipment. You're adding in extra elements like the guiding and lunch but even so you've probably got a price ceiling at around £900 - flight = around £750 if you want to stand a chance at filling all spaces. This is without playing the it's Switzerland so you need to pay more you cheapskate card. Paying more than £1k for a 1 week Euro holiday is a big barrier for many people. Above that of course you've got the freshtracks market but they're conditioned to paying more.

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@Markymark29, I think you're being rather unfair.

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@under a new name, But surely you can't doubt that the Swiss national products of i) Banking Secrecy/stability & ii) Favourable taxation for both wealthy individuals and companies have worked against iii) Tourism and iv) Export of Cuckoo clocks/ cloying milk chocolate. It's probably a truism that it's impossible to control at a macro level to leave all this in balance but it is also probably true that the Swiss state could do more to sustain tourism (but then you get into a Federal v Cantonal question and all the local interests involved).

@Dave of the Marmottes, I think I am (unusually) going to disagree with you. Banking secrecy, while everyone else was at it, was apparently fine. I think it rather rich (a̶l̶t̶h̶o̶u̶g̶h̶ ̶s̶o̶m̶e̶w̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶p̶e̶r̶s̶o̶n̶a̶l̶l̶y̶ ̶c̶o̶n̶v̶e̶n̶i̶e̶n̶t̶,̶ ̶j̶u̶s̶t̶ ̶w̶i̶s̶h̶ ̶I̶ ̶c̶o̶u̶l̶d̶ ̶f̶i̶n̶d̶ ̶a̶ ̶w̶e̶l̶l̶ ̶c̶o̶n̶d̶i̶t̶i̶o̶n̶e̶d̶ ̶e̶n̶v̶i̶r̶o̶n̶m̶e̶n̶t̶ ̶f̶o̶r̶ ̶t̶h̶o̶s̶e̶ ̶e̶x̶-̶U̶S̶S̶R̶ ̶I̶C̶B̶M̶s̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶a̶r̶e̶ ̶r̶u̶s̶t̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶f̶a̶s̶t̶e̶r̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶n̶ ̶I̶ ̶c̶a̶n̶ ̶m̶a̶i̶n̶t̶a̶i̶n̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶m̶) that the UK manages to maintain its own offshore tax resorts while shooting bolts of ire at anyone else who thinks a tax haven is poor show.

So now the US doesn't like (some) of its citizens avoiding fair (?) taxation, we all have to dislike the idea that not all taxation is equal? Bagpuss games if ever I saw them.

The tax rules for wealthy entities seem to work fairly well for: F1 drivers, balding prog rock musicians and rapacious commodity production and trading companies, and to be honest, not that well anyway, not compared to what e.g. Amazon can do within the totally normal tax treaties around Europe. So very small beer, I think anyway. It definitely doesn't (generally) work well for simply (quite) wealthy individuals unless they are prepared to be domiciled in somewhat remote agricultural surroundings.

Given the current lack of personal secrecy due to egregious governmental miscreance, why would the Swiss position worry or upset anyone?

You know it makes sense.

I'm not playing a moral card here, sorry if you got that impression. Just identifying that Switzerland has had definite policies that have contributed to keeping its currency strong and its place as a haven for cash.

In such a context I could easily see why Swiss exporters and those in the tourist industry might feel they've rather been pushed under a bus.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

@4valleesfan, I think that sounds great if you can bring it in at the right price. The only main 'problem' I think you may have with pricing the offer is on offpiste guiding as the typical day rate in CHF is around 550 for a small group (if using an IFGMA guide). Using a patente holder from the ESS (or equivalent) may work if there are enough of them. But if you offered all the other stuff you mention (plus optional fixed rate ski hire) you would still be doing something that most are not (in Switzerland at least). There could then be an issue with whether you are an inclusive tour operator but that may be OK in Switzerland. My sense is that if you are offering a fix on price people may go higher than £1,000 excluding flights. Tell us how you get on pricewise please. Valais2 (the OP) may well be interested as this is more likely to work than some of his original post ideas (I think).

A snowHead

@chrisJersey, The problem with all in guiding as you identify is that IFGMA guides don't come cheap and that if its a standard part of a package then you limit your potential market to those that are looking for it. Far better if you've 70 beds to fill to offer Guiding as a (very good value) optional extra (maybe with 3/4/5 day options) and keep the headline price down under £800 or so IMO. Even then you've a struggle to compete with the TO clearance bin at £350-£500, possibly you don't want to try.

A snowHead

Markymark29: Not Verbier but just so you can have a bit of a laugh at my resort's price point here is their freeride week offer (think this is one of your weeks date wise): http://www.sierre-anniviers-booking.com/tourisme/freeride-weeks.html - it does include a guide but unless you are 6 in a one star hotel it looks a little bit high unless you are self catering.

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@chrisJersey, errant . In your link.

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http://www.sierre-anniviers-booking.com/tourism/freeride-weeks.html I think I had full stop in it before. sorry

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@chrisJersey, Blimey that supports my thoughts, 3.5 days skiing and 1* CH hotel too, what's that like? For 1990 CHF, can do a week in St Anton with 6 days freeride skiing for less than that price in 3* HB quality accommodation with guiding in a group.

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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

@under a new name, ...indeed even today Swiss Central Bank has expended vast reserves to keep value of chf down - devil and deep - chf high and difficult for export and tourism or in euro and caught in the whole Greek debacle/impending car crash.

After all it is free

@4valleesfan, Firstly....Welcome to Snowheads

I'd tend to agree with @Dave of the Marmottes's figures.
Maybe keep the guiding / instruction optional. Inclusive Apres tea n cakes, first beer is a nice, sociable touch.
Maybe offer shorter all-in trips during slack periods (eg. Fri-Mon, Tue-Thu)? See resort deals around Innsbruck.
Good luck and let us know how you get on.

Suggest the government print Swiss francs and give them to the Brits. Your currency will devalue and we'll come and ski there. Everybody happy. Sorted.

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@flicky, Their printing press is not as big as ours rolling eyes

Help!!

Very much like your views on dealing with problems of Swiss franc

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