 Poster: A snowHead
|
|
I am surprised the British Chalet Chalet & Holiday Companies have not got together & purchased & couple of hundred pairs of skis & include them in the package ???
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
@stanton, why would they bother if getting a healthy commission on each hire?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
Alber are german owned (albert sports gmbh) not the Alber family locally. Yes there is the hervis shop in town but it doesn't have anywhere near the quality of gear all the others do, and there prices are fairly similar anyway so not really rocking the boat.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
@stanton, I stand corrected, i must have got the wrong end of the stick as i was told they were german by a member of staff for the original anton Albers when i asked why he bought all his kit from Jennewein
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
Ski resorts run by local cartels is hardly a shock.
I remember chatting to a Morzine bar owner in the 90s who was quite open about all of the town's bar owners having a night our in October and setting the prices for the coming season.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Markymark29 wrote: |
| @AthersT, There's a lot of points in your message and I don't have time to cover them off right now, all I would say is that if you look at structuring your holiday maybe differently, eg doing a DIY trip rather than booking a tour operator trip who are making a really healthy profit from you, then you and your team will get a much better holiday - travel when you want to travel, quality place to stay, have more money for après/ food and ski gear rental. This is a much bigger subject than just hire from ski shops, nobody more than me likes best value by the way, I've travelled there many times and can recommend many places to stay at 40-45€pppn which would likely tick all your boxes, plus flights (or self drive) and ski hire deals from shops. Its all available on the internet......the way that TUI etc make their money is by bundling up flights/ transfers/ hotels/ meals/ ski and boot hire deals, screwing down the locals and getting the punter the best deal......all I'm saying is there is another way of doing it. |
I have to say i'm not convinced by the argument of TO's and making healthy margin; when i say that i'm comparing a like-for-like situation rather than making it cheaper (which is different). Working through Mrs 215's company (registered TO for want of a better description), in Val Thorens i got the same hotel package, with estimated car / flight figures about £200 cheaper (on a total spend of in the region of £2500 (that is excluding commission i.e. at a discount)). That's compared to a flight, accom, transfer, hire HB package with a well known TO.
The TO obviously has additional overheads that i / we don't have and also has the economies of scale, bus transfers, bulk flights, more room nights. One DIY (same scenario) came in £3,000 more than the TO price for again the same 'holiday' which i can only assume is that they didn't want the business i was sending them (fair enough). Doesn't seem to be a health profit there though, accounts of similar compaies, such as Crystal may well give some indication as to operating profit i'd guess 8%?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I've always thought ski holidays were ideal territory for TOs given it requires a bundling of services, a fair amount of organisation and knowledge, etc. Especially for novices.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
Must admit I tend to the view that if competition generates a race to the bottom, nobody benefits. Ultimately land prices drive costs (it's what makes Switzerland expensive), but it's in nobody's interests for a successful business that provides lots of employment to go under. It is in everybody's interests for money to go round the local economy. Let's not forget that most ski-related businesses have only 20 weeks in which to make a whole year's money.
With all this outcry about cartels, why is there no such outcry about e.g. Interwest owning resorts and running everything in the US?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
[quote]
I've always thought ski holidays were ideal territory for TOs given it requires a bundling of services, a fair amount of organisation and knowledge, etc. Especially for novices.
@Layne, Agreed, but so often IME in the early years when I went skiing via a TO I looked at the people in resort and thought I knew more about the place than they did, seasonaires with smaller operators have to be pretty savvy I guess but the larger ones still seem to employ cheap year-out staff who seem to want to party rather than provide a service to their customers. I wonder what the Directors of these organosations actually think goes on in resort, maybe they just look at the balance sheet and think so long as people keep coming who cares?
@eng_ch, Agreed, these are big employers in the local economy, there's no danger that these companies will be at risk from this, they employ a great deal of people not only in store and backroom, but also in service centres off-site that people don't know exist and are big enough to ride a fine here and there.
I'd be highly surprised if this alleged practice is not rife within the ski market as a whole throughout the world, and well beyond winter sports as well.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
Why anyone would express any surprise is beyond me. This is the way it works and will continue to work. Every now and again a sacrifice to the consumer watchdogs will be made. This time it is St Antons turn. The only variable here is who's next in another 10 years or so.
Meantime businesses in ski resorts in Austria and the world over will continue to work this way and punters will continue to rent gear at exorbitant prices whilst continuing to pay for lessons year after year after year and never actually be taught to ski.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
| robboj wrote: |
| punters will continue to rent gear at exorbitant prices |
This punter doesn't. He pays airlines exorbitant prices for ski carriage instead.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Quote: |
why is there no such outcry about e.g. Interwest owning resorts and running everything in the US
|
There is, that's why they're not allowed any further expansion (I believe) and thus their cross holdings in e.g. Compagnie des Alpes.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
| Quote: |
punters will continue to rent gear at exorbitant prices
|
or rent gear at much more reasonable prices in other places.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
Tbh the only place I've skied in Austria that I considered the ski rental to be exorbitant was Ischgl. I got a good deal on the accommodation and lift passes so just bit the bullet.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
| Markymark29 wrote: |
@eng_ch, Agreed, these are big employers in the local economy, there's no danger that these companies will be at risk from this, they employ a great deal of people not only in store and backroom, but also in service centres off-site that people don't know exist and are big enough to ride a fine here and there.
I'd be highly surprised if this alleged practice is not rife within the ski market as a whole throughout the world, and well beyond winter sports as well. |
For sure - Jennewein (the man, not the business) must be worth several tens of millions of euros. The fine is small change.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
@clarky999, top guy too
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| eng_ch wrote: |
Must admit I tend to the view that if competition generates a race to the bottom, nobody benefits. Ultimately land prices drive costs (it's what makes Switzerland expensive), but it's in nobody's interests for a successful business that provides lots of employment to go under. It is in everybody's interests for money to go round the local economy. Let's not forget that most ski-related businesses have only 20 weeks in which to make a whole year's money.
With all this outcry about cartels, why is there no such outcry about e.g. Interwest owning resorts and running everything in the US? |
Because Intrawest basically went tits up in the recession and are no longer a big dog? Vail Resorts are of course a different matter. Besides the point is different it's not a conspiracy against the market it's just monopolistic behaviour ( which is why Vail can't buy any more resorts in Colorado). On an individual resort basis regulators seem to accept that its closer to Disneyland than a real town.e
Competition doesn't necessarily mean a race to the bottom - it may just mean that customers get choice e.g. to rent older models from a less swanky shop further from the lifts ( ie trade off some of the "premium experience" for savings) or vice versa. Most ski resorts have someplace that offers such choice. St Anton definitely doesn't because of the cartel
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| eng_ch wrote: |
Must admit I tend to the view that if competition generates a race to the bottom, nobody benefits. Ultimately land prices drive costs (it's what makes Switzerland expensive), but it's in nobody's interests for a successful business that provides lots of employment to go under. It is in everybody's interests for money to go round the local economy. Let's not forget that most ski-related businesses have only 20 weeks in which to make a whole year's money.
With all this outcry about cartels, why is there no such outcry about e.g. Interwest owning resorts and running everything in the US? |
Because Intrawest basically went tits up in the recession and are no longer a big dog? Vail Resorts are of course a different matter. Besides the point is different it's not a conspiracy against the market it's just monopolistic behaviour ( which is why Vail can't buy any more resorts in Colorado). On an individual resort basis regulators seem to accept that its closer to Disneyland than a real town.e
Competition doesn't necessarily mean a race to the bottom - it may just mean that customers get choice e.g. to rent older models from a less swanky shop further from the lifts ( ie trade off some of the "premium experience" for savings) or vice versa. Most ski resorts have someplace that offers such choice. St Anton definitely doesn't because of the cartel
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| dogwatch wrote: |
| robboj wrote: |
| punters will continue to rent gear at exorbitant prices |
This punter doesn't. He pays airlines exorbitant prices for ski carriage instead. |
Lufthansa is your friend..
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
@mugen, 1..... 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
@Dave of the Marmottes, Not true - You can get cheaper prices 3 miles down the road in Pettneu on a free ski bus if you don't want to pay for the convenience of walk in and out ski hire right next to the lift stations in St Anton! You pay extra for this service.....quite simple I think.
| Quote: |
Most ski resorts have someplace that offers such choice. St Anton definitely doesn't because of the cartel
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Most tourist towns are quite insular where many of the local businesses are owned by a few families and their friends. They then set the prices however they feel. But fish and chips in any British seaside town and in won't be cheap.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| Markymark29 wrote: |
| @mugen, 1..... |
was impressed by Lufthansa, connecting flight from Edinburgh via Frankfurt to Innsbruck. treated like person rather than cattle.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Markymark29 wrote: |
@Dave of the Marmottes, Not true - You can get cheaper prices 3 miles down the road in Pettneu on a free ski bus if you don't want to pay for the convenience of walk in and out ski hire right next to the lift stations in St Anton! You pay extra for this service.....quite simple I think.
| Quote: |
Most ski resorts have someplace that offers such choice. St Anton definitely doesn't because of the cartel
|
|
yup prices in Pettneu did look cheaper, but as I have my own kit didn't look too hard. if I'm going with people that need to hire then usually best to get stuff from feeder towns and hire a locker at lift and cram everything in there. pettneu for SA and galtur for Ischgl this year
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
@mugen, Like your idea of Lufthansa to INN never thought of doing that, we normally fly LH MAN-MUC but its a fair drive, think i'll take a look at doing a trip via Frankfurt if I can get times to work. Train from INN to St Anton possible then which is a breeze. I assume bags/ skis are booked straight through at Frankfurt?
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
| Markymark29 wrote: |
| @mugen, Like your idea of Lufthansa to INN never thought of doing that, we normally fly LH MAN-MUC but its a fair drive, think i'll take a look at doing a trip via Frankfurt if I can get times to work. Train from INN to St Anton possible then which is a breeze. I assume bags/ skis are booked straight through at Frankfurt? |
I found it quite relaxing, in feb flew into Salzburg and drove 3 hours to Ischgl. but in april went via Frankfurt and enjoyed to short stop over then off again on a 50 min flight to INN. you get your beer and your there. INN such a small airport that your off the plane and out in no time.
bags go through without you having to worry about them
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
@mugen, Mmmm, just looked at prices though, bit pricy! Will take a proper look later, cheers
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
@Markymark29, @mugen, or fly to ZRH, direct shuttle bus to St Anton, prob only a couple of hours to Ischgl by car
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
@Markymark29, I tend to fly into ZRH for my ski trips into the Arlberg. Much easier than flying into Munich! Getting to Warth from Zurich takes about 2 hours 20 mins, but is lined with speed cameras from Dornbirn to Shrocken, so no way you can go any faster on those back country roads. Little traffic to get snarled up in once you get out of Zurich/Kloten apart from crossing into Austria. Up to now I've used Avios, so I got free UK regional flights eg:- MAN-LHR-ZRH, all ski kit free within the baggage weight allowances. I've once flown with Swiss MAN-ZRH, they are good. But I doubt my taking my own skis has dinted the profits of the St. Anton cartel, and I've often pondered just why a top set of skis for the week are £150, and just how many punters are daft enough to go for that.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
@skimastaaah, yes its a great road that Warth to Dornbirn one albeit as you say the cameras are a bit of a pain, the engineering those guys use on the roads is tremendous. Great villages like Egg and Holzgau, going to spend a day or 2 there on my roadbike this summer, also Lechtal down past Steeg etc. We tend to try the shortcut if weather permits over via Damuls and to Bludenz when we go Warth to St Anton but the roads can be a bit sketchy in bad weather.
Just out of interest how are the car hire prices at Zurich? I've sort of discounted anything CH-land whilst the Swissie was strong, maybe its time for a rethink vs Munich. Do you book via Holiday Autos?
Yeah I've no idea why anyone would hire kit at those prices, especially and then complain at the price, you can pick decent hire grade stuff up for cheap deals on the web out of season, ski it and sell on much cheaper. The standard argument seems to be.... I can ski the latest gear, trash it if I want and then give it back, well the re-work prices are built into the hire rate to cover that I guess, and hire grade skis with bulked up edges with extra weight so they can bang them through the grinder every week are not what I want to be skiing on!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
| dogwatch wrote: |
| Ghost Dog wrote: |
| That seems like a win for the consumer, if the hotels all went crazy competitive on price, standards would fall rather than rise. Just saying. |
Some would fall, some would rise, consumers would get a choice. |
I think I prefer to choose from Hotels competing on quality rather than price.
And price competition is unlikely to drive prices up!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| Markymark29 wrote: |
| Just out of interest how are the car hire prices at Zurich? I've sort of discounted anything CH-land whilst the Swissie was strong, maybe its time for a rethink vs Munich. |
You're a bit out of date; the GBP-CHF exchange rate bounced back to it's Xmas rates within about 6 weeks. You'll probably spend more £ in fuel takign a hire car from Munich than you'd save on the rental; not forgetting the being knackered when you arrive and all the 100kph limits and cameras throughout Austria
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| eng_ch wrote: |
| Markymark29 wrote: |
| Just out of interest how are the car hire prices at Zurich? I've sort of discounted anything CH-land whilst the Swissie was strong, maybe its time for a rethink vs Munich. |
You're a bit out of date; the GBP-CHF exchange rate bounced back to it's Xmas rates within about 6 weeks. You'll probably spend more £ in fuel takign a hire car from Munich than you'd save on the rental; not forgetting the being knackered when you arrive and all the 100kph limits and cameras throughout Austria |
Half an hour drive time isn't going to make that much difference fuel/exhaustion wise surely?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
I think if you don't want to pay the asking price then don't, go elsewhere. We have cartels all around us all of the time, I don't think this is anything new. Sellers will sell for the maximum they can get, providing enough buyers are willing to pay that price then a business exists. It is probably not too different to 'rip off britain'. If your competitor in business is making £50 profit doing the same thing as you, why would you charge any less....to gain more customers/profit/work? (aka stab in the back) So how else do you increase sales/profits.....customer service perhaps?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
@mayr, +1
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
@mayr, -1
| Quote: |
I think if you don't want to pay the asking price then don't, go elsewhere. We have cartels all around us all of the time, I don't think this is anything new. Sellers will sell for the maximum they can get, providing enough buyers are willing to pay that price then a business exists. It is probably not too different to 'rip off britain'.
|
There is a lot of nonsense in this:
1. go elsewhere? The whole point of a cartel is to remove or limit that option by explicitly agreeing a common approach to pricing. Note the explicit agreement - a business is free to copy a competitor's price they just can't agree it between them. Now I understand the point that you could leave resort to avoid the cartel but that is not a practical option to many customers.
2. we have cartels around us all the time? I don't agree with that. The sanctions available if you are caught operating a cartel are huge - up to a year's global REVENUES! Occasionally people allege cartels in, say, UK electricity or petrol retail. Having some direct experience of both I think it is nonsense - the companies take a lot of care to make sure that their employees don't infringe competition law because the consequences can be devastating. Note this does not mean that you don't see price matching etc but the point is explicit agreement.
3. sellers will sell for the maximum price they can get? No - sellers will trade off price, cost and market share to deliver the optimal result for their business. This is how markets operate - if prices get too high it will just be too tempting for a competitor to offer a discount to gain share and capture margin x volume. This dynamic is why competition acts in the consumers' interest. Any industry that enters a conspiracy to undermine the action of the market is breaking the law and has to be dealt with. Just because they are nice Austrian mountain folk doesn't give them a free pass.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Sitter wrote: |
| eng_ch wrote: |
| Markymark29 wrote: |
| Just out of interest how are the car hire prices at Zurich? I've sort of discounted anything CH-land whilst the Swissie was strong, maybe its time for a rethink vs Munich. |
You're a bit out of date; the GBP-CHF exchange rate bounced back to it's Xmas rates within about 6 weeks. You'll probably spend more £ in fuel takign a hire car from Munich than you'd save on the rental; not forgetting the being knackered when you arrive and all the 100kph limits and cameras throughout Austria |
Half an hour drive time isn't going to make that much difference fuel/exhaustion wise surely? |
Zurich airport is already on the Ischgl side of the city, whereas Munich airport requires you to orbit Munich city. Thos roads are not to be underestimated; it's taken me 8 hours (and not in rush hour) from teh SW side of Munich to Zurich before now, which should be only just over 3 hours. And don't underestimate how tiring the 100 kph speed cameras through Austria can be. Your choice of course, but I know which journey I'd prefer to do; I'd even pay more to do that one
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
@jedster, +1
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
@jedster, -1 & ....yawn....I'll stick to the points you raise.
1. If you don't like the price, don't book that holiday or change to a different resort. If you have already arrived and you don't like the prices, shop around in town / out of town to get a better deal. If you are unable to do that and you are still unhappy, there is the option of going home and never returning. Up to the consumer all the way. If it is not practical to the customer, perhaps they should have researched their holiday better, and take some responsibility rather than blame the tour operator or supplier for everything, which is maybe like going to Sharm el sheikh and complaining that it is too hot an sunny in August.
2. Of course (like you say)....no company ever breaks the rules / law. It is never ever in the news how companies get fined huge amounts. JP Morgan, BP, GSK, Barclays, HSBC.
3. If selling something like.....errrr ski lessons....what would you do? Sell your hourly lessons for 50 euros each and work 8 hours a day or sell the same hours for 100 euros each and only need to work until lunchtime to earn the same money? I call this 'double price...half the time', it's something best done only when you are successful and have a reliable client base.
Here ends my free lesson in global economics (simplified) 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
