 Poster: A snowHead
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DW 832. You cracked me up laughing!!! Hope you were joking...because I was thinking that most snow heads were cool dudes  , laid back and chilled,  who were born to ski from out of the womb, ski boots on and raring to go!!! 
The funny thing is, is that children are part of the relentless cycle of life. They are not to be hidden away, denied rail or air travel for fear that they may upset someone. We were all children once! There are plenty of adults who travel on planes and rail who think that loud music on their head phones is acceptable, who kick the seat in front whilst irritatingly drumming their fingers on the arm-rest, who breath whisky fumes over fellow travellers at 7am  , who shout into mobile phones for 30+ minutes in "their train office" with shrill voices, whilst typing loudly (importantly) on their laptops. Then there are those on planes who keep their mobile on even when they are told to have turned it off and elbow you in the face whilst applying mascara etc etc. Young or old, the world is full of people you may find irritating. The last time I was on a plane, the bloke behind kept kneeing me in the back. When I asked him to stop he was most impolite - the irony was that he was travelling with two children under 10 who were beautifully behaved in comparison.
To go back to the point of this thread - after 6 months you'll be glad of the break from the monotony of the routine at home. We agreed that taking a child away at 6 months was not fair to the child's routine and would be exhausting for us (at least at home we have a spare room to crash in when one of us is pacing the floor at 3am). So imagine our surprise when we rang up Esprit on the Tuesday and ended up in France on the Saturday. We spent v little time on the slopes though - by the time we had arrived at the crèche with everything you'd usually take for a long weekend and then hung around assuring ourselves that junior was totally chilled with the new set up we would head out together and realise that our brains were mush. We did manage a few runs each day, but it was not our usual run rate! It was good for all of us though!
Good luck!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I can sleep through a baby crying ...so they can do what they like, my main issue is why a parent would leave a new born ...up to 2 years in someone elses care...... they chilc their choice but I wouldn't and never have ...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@winterfunman, what happens at age 2 that makes it OK?
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@winterfunman, a 6 month old is hardly "new born". A two year old is likely to have much greater problems with separation than a 6 month old. But if you looked after your little ones, 24/7, then I'm impressed; few men could manage that.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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These were merely age's, I said from new born , not saying a 6 month old was a new born , and didn't say it was OK to leave them at 2 .
I spend a lot of time with my kids, alway's have , and u say few men could??
AND u accused me before of generalising and pidgeon holing people ?? SHAKES HEAD 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
I spend a lot of time with my kids, alway's have , and u say few men could??
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no, you just leap in without reading carefully, don't you? I said that few men could look after their kids 24/7. That's not at all the same as spending a few hours with them a day and the odd day at the weekend.
There are not many men who have taken on the full-time care caring of very young children. I said that if you had done that I would be impressed. Most can manage a few hours, fewer can do a whole weekend, very few take on the whole job.
I know what I'm talking about. When our kids were little it was I who went to work (sometimes working abroad for some days or weeks at a time) and my OH who looked after them. I can tell you there were very few men who were doing that. He only ever met one other man who was a full time child carer (his wife was a high flying and very busy hospital consultant).
The relevance here is that if someone has not taken on the main responsibility of caring for a little baby they really have no business telling people who have that they really don't need a holiday.
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| pam w wrote: |
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I spend a lot of time with my kids, alway's have , and u say few men could??
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no, you just leap in without reading carefully, don't you? I said that few men could look after their kids 24/7. That's not at all the same as spending a few hours with them a day and the odd day at the weekend.
There are not many men who have taken on the full-time care caring of very young children. I said that if you had done that I would be impressed. Most can manage a few hours, fewer can do a whole weekend, very few take on the whole job.
I know what I'm talking about. When our kids were little it was I who went to work (sometimes working abroad for some days or weeks at a time) and my OH who looked after them. I can tell you there were very few men who were doing that. He only ever met one other man who was a full time child carer (his wife was a high flying and very busy hospital consultant).
The relevance here is that if someone has not taken on the main responsibility of caring for a little baby they really have no business telling people who have that they really don't need a holiday. |
Even today that is the case - I have a colleague at work whose husband is the primary carer and he is very alone in being a male with that responsibility- it would be interesting with the changes in rights from maternity leave to parental leave which came in in April if that will change, I hope it does but I fear it won't.
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Pam W
Hi I have seen a lot of your posts on this website and I am going to preface my reply with the fact that I have found them informative and always warm and kindhearted, so please take the following with the respect that is intended.
I have to call you on your post that men don't look after a child 24/7, that may well be a norm, but its very lightly a norm because people perpetuate it. I know you mention that your husband and one other he met did it, but its still perpetuating an idea that they were extrordinary people, when in reality anyone with half a brain and a modicum of common sense can look after a child. We build it up into this mystic thing when in reality it is a joyful experience within the reach of everyone.
I took on primary care for my daughter when she was 3 months old becuase my wife's career would suffer a break a lot less than my own. In addition we suspected it would sadly be easier for a man to return to work than a women, another sad by-product of traditional attitudes to childcare.
I grant you that it was still not 24/7 but then unless you are a single parent it is never 24/7, however I would say my experience was comparable to that of any mother. I looked after our daughter from her first feed in the morning (6:30/7am) until around 7:30 at night when my wife returned home, 5 days a week until my daughter was 7 months old at which point we put her in a nursery for one day a week to start getting her used to social interactions. I continued this routine until she was 18 months and in nursery 4 days a week.
The point is that whilst doing this I was patronized by women on a daily basis, if I had a penny for everytime a woman came up to me and said the following
"ooh is it your day off and your spending some time looking after the baby, not easy is it"
no actually I do this all the time, I wander how a top flight female brain surgeon would feel if I walked up to her and asked her where her baby was and why was she not at home cooking! Another interesting aside here before anyone asks. During the time I was looking after our daughter. I did all the cooking in the week, I managed the house including shopping and washing and I also organized our wedding (anyone need a male wedding planner 
The really sad thing about this is that I did this to empower and help my wife in her career and I whilst the mothers I met through childrens classes and hospital classes were amazing, largely i have experienced a lot of reverse sexism, sometimes from women and also now back in work from Men who cannot accept that its okay for a man to be a child carer, becuase they believe themselves incapable. I think its allowing these stereotypes to remain is very negative and stops us all moving forward.
How many men might feel more inclined to do more if they were empowered and told they could, rather than the constant message that only women can possibly look after children well, it gives too many the ulitimate excuse to opt out. " I just can't do it becuase I am a man"
It also limits women, because whilst this stereotype exists it presents them with a no win situation, they either stop work potentially harming a great career or they don't and feel huge amounts of guilt. I know a lot of women who feel supremely guilty about returning to work becuase of exactly this belief
The logic goes
Only a mother is capapble of looking after her child properly
I have gone back to work denying my child the best care
I am a horrrible person
The reality is that the first step in this argument is factually incorrect and if more people accepted that, women would be a lot happier.
Sorry for the rant
G
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@gordonrussell76, I completely agree with what you say. It is a fact that very few men take the main child care role and that's no doubt why there is a lot of negativity towards a man looking after babies. Our first son was very slow to start talking - my OH was once told that was probably because men don't talk to babies. He talked to the baby all the time, as one does. Nobody else to talk to, much of the time!
It remains the case, sadly, that most kids never spend extended times with just their fathers. The lucky ones spend "quality time" with their dads, playing football, reading stories, going swimming, riding bikes, etc All brilliant things to do, and they have lots of fun. But it's not the daily routine. Usually if a father looks after 2 or 3 kids for the day (e.g. when Mum is having a day off), that's what they do. They don't also clean the bathrooms, do the shopping and sort out the meals. Mum probably cooked some meals in advance and put them ready in the freezer. (One of my friends does this and leaves a detailed list of meals, even though he's NOT looking after kids, just himself   ) Gender roles are very deeply engrained, despite all the 20th century polemic on the subject.
Of course it's not because men are incapable of doing it all (you did, and my husband did) but because they never actually have to do it. In the same way most women don't actually change wheels, or put up shelves or mend punctures. Anyone with half a brain can do all those things too, but only by doing them.
We see a lot of SH posts from men saying that their wives are letting them have a "week off" for a ski holiday without the family. How often do we get a woman rejoicing that her OH is going to look after the kids and the house for a week for her to have a holiday?
Looking after small children is rewarding but it can also be boring and isolating, especially for a man for whom the usual rounds of "Mums chatting over a coffee" can be a bit awkward. Nobody who hasn't done it - and not just for a few hours, or a day or so - has any idea.
When our youngest started at playgroup my OH went on the playgroup committee. He came home from the first meeting having been elected Treasurer (being the only man......). He had no idea at all - even keeping the accounts of the annual fund-raising fete was a complete nightmare for him. His contribution of starting "DIY mornings" in the playgroup, with small groups being supervised using real tools, went down well though, as did his black playdough.
If I hadn't thought men capable of looking after babies and small kids, I'd hardly have left mine with a man, would I?
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Fair enough Pam
Like I said not looking for an argument and fully understand you left your children with your husband and don't disagree that men can't its just that its rarer. I just think its worth being careful in sweeping generalizations because sometimes they become self-fulfilling.
I also agree that coffee morning can be challenging, I have heard many many labor war stories, and that is not a comfortable conversation to be present at as a man. You have to have empathy in a situation like that. You have to realize just how traumatic child birth can be, and realize that talking about it all the time for the first 6 months is actually cathartic and part of the recovery. Its not easy for women either having a man present in that situation, that why i said the mothers in my group were amazing they did not shut me out, but included me warts and all.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| dw832 wrote: |
| Good luck with your trip, but please drive. Airlines and Eurostar are not the place for babies if you care about other people. Somebody else's holiday that they've been looking forward to all year can start really badly if they are sat close to a wailing baby that really doesn't want to be there. |
Another person who forgets that flights are merely another form of public transport. If you don't want to be near a baby, or any other category of passenger type you happen to take a dislike to, I suggest you charter your own private flight, or drive in your own private vehicle. The family with the baby have paid for their tickets the same as you and has as much right to be there even if you selfishly think they don't. They've probably been looking forward to their holiday as much as you have. If a crying baby is likely to bother you that much take a pair of ear plugs. Also works well with nearby snoring passengers on night flights - you probably don't like them either. A baby crying is not unreasonable noise - it might be a little unpleasant and irritating at times but it's not unreasonable. (unlike a bunch of oiks getting legless at 3am on an overnight flight).
Plus your advice is fundamentally bad in my opinion. Driving to the Alps with a 6 month old it is cooped up in the car seat for 9 hours with limited ability to move. I thought general advice was prolonged journeys in car seats was not considered good for babies. Besides it is very difficult to tend to a baby's needs when its strapped into a rear facing seat for a 9 hour road trip, unless it sleeps the whole way (you might depending on the age get away with half the journey whilst he/she sleeps unless you drive overnight). Conversely with flying it is much easier to deal with a baby as the journey is broken up into manageable sections and it is not confined to it's rear facing seat - you might do an hour to the airport, half hour at check in, two hours in a lounge, half hour at the gate, an hour and a half on board, etc etc. Drive if you have to, but with a baby in tow, for an alps journey I've always preferred to fly. Now myn are a bit older driving works well, thanks to some pre-planned games, books, and a bit of technology (though I try and keep them off the technology until at least half way into the journey).
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@mikeelsa, just watch out for the altitude for younger children. Otherwise I would say go for it, use the child care and make the most of your holiday. Our two girls have various versions of child care, then ski lessons (at the school of hard knocks also known as ESF). We have had some great holidays. Just remember that it is not cheap and the costs add up over the years - probably enough to buy a small house....
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You know it makes sense.
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I am on the Mumsnet forum although I have never posted anything I like to read the posts.
Many people are saying the Mark Warner is good for ski babysitting. I don't know if this is right but it would be worth a call to them to ask about what they offer.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Esprit all the way. We took our little ones and all day child care was great.
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Poster: A snowHead
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I'd agree with the Esprit recommendation but the issue could be the older kids. They (probably) won't want to join the activities with the younger kids and Esprit don't really offer anything for teenagers. Yes, they get to join the adults for evening dinner but that is about it.
As for those suggesting people with babies should stay at home or drive......................... {EDIT} I'd probably get banned for what I'd like to say to you.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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My teenagers never needed anything "laid on" for them on ski holidays.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Neither did mine! 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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We took our 6 month old on a Mark Warner Holiday. He was asleep by the time we had finished taxiing to the runway. The MArk Warner staff were great but I thought the Mark Warner "parents" were a right bunch of tossers, inserted a great distance up their own anal orifices.
This resulted in a big fall-out over dinner one night when 3 couples (medics) whinged on about how they thought the creche was dangerous. They didn't like it when we asked why they went skiing all day and left their precious cargos in an environment they thought unsafe.
In a morning the creche entrance was full of spoilt, screaming kids and emotional mothers. We ran past, executed a nice running, spin-pass of the child into the arms of a nanny and boogered off for a great days skiing.
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@Frosty the Snowman, that is interesting and reflected our experience of their clientele I thought we had just been unlucky
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@NickyJ, I was amazed. A considerable portion of guests had serious superiority issues, made life needlessly difficult for the staff and just loved to moan. Mark Warner themselves were pretty faultless IMV.
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| Quote: |
My point is more about how the teenagers will feel about being in a hotel that is mostly full of younger kids.
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Fair point. We never went to any of those "child care" places so that didn't arise. We never went with MW either ( too expensive!); their clientele sound a right pain.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
A considerable portion of guests had serious superiority issues, made life needlessly difficult................ and just loved to moan
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Well sounds like a lot of SHs use them 
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@gordonrussell76, *applause*, and very eloquently put. I'm very glad to read your rant. Switching to working part time when my second daughter was born was one of the best decisions I've ever made, and even now they are all in school I've continued it so I can get the chores done when I'm on my own during the week, and so leave the weekends free for the sort of quality time that @pam w suggests. It's a long way short of being the sole carer, 24/7, but like you I was surprised at some of the reactions from other parents. I remember being asked if I was babysitting one day, to which I replied that no, I'm being her father. And you're both right that fathers can be easily isolated when they're in a minority at coffee mornings and play groups etc. I definitely felt like a gooseberry at times. It's easy for fathers to be touchy about such things, but in the greater scheme mothers have far bigger problems that stem from the ingrained inequality in childcare roles (as you describe). I'm fortunate that my employer is really good and my working part time has not affected my career, but I know plenty of others who have missed out on promotion or other things because of being part time workers.
Apologies for not having anything to say on the subject of taking a 6-month old skiing. My only advice would be to expect to not do much skiing, and then any time that you do get will seem like a bonus rather than the other way around where time spent not skiing feels like a disappointment. Happiness is equal to achievement divided by expectations!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
Switching to working part time when my second daughter was born was one of the best decisions I've ever made, and even now they are all in school I've continued it so I can get the chores done when I'm on my own during the week, and so leave the weekends free for the sort of quality time that @pam w suggests.
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Good to read that, @kieranm. The years when kids are young are so fleeting.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Though a wet day at home with a small baby and a toddler can seem endless......
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wow, a lot of differing opinions on here.
I will start with the suggestion of driving a 6 month old to the alps. Firstly we live in Edinburgh so i would not do it with children of any age but to suggest we should not go on a plane cause we have a child who might cry is outrageous. A two hour flight is hardly a long time to suffer if a baby does cry but can i suggest you take your i-pod on your next flight then you won't hear anything.
we may miss out anyway because creche places are few and far between and we are not going to book until baby is born in September and obviously want to make sure everything is okay so will have to hope something is available then. Not put off by anything on here and quite encouraged that many of you have done it.
cheers
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You know it makes sense.
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@mikeelsa, Hope all goes well with the birth, and that when you do decide to go on your next ski holiday, however you do it, you have a wonderful time!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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We planned babies around the ski season (really!) - first child went skiing at 6 weeks and a year later we had a one year old and a new 8 week old. Skiing in Soldeu so a 3-4 hour transfer from Toulouse. I can honestly say that the only issues we had were a few sleepless nights in resort with me pushing a child around in their pushchair in the small hours. We were concerned that a crying baby in the hotel would wake others, but tbh the drunks arriving back from the bars at 4am were far more disruptive, especially banging on doors to wake up roommates to let them in! I'd say whole-heartedly go for it - you may not get as much skiing done as you'd like but you're there at least! I have to say that pre-children, I was probably one of those that hated the sound of a crying baby but post-children it's just a noise, not an irritaion any more. Ignore those who say don't take babies on planes etc - they can just suck it up, put on headphones, whatever - a drunk or inconsiderate adult is far more irritating! I'm remembering a flight when 3 adults in front immediately fully reclined their seats the moment the seatbelt light went out (daytime flight) and even when food was served sat forward with their seats still fully reclined. They were drunk and were even abusive to the stewardess when they were asked to put their seats back upright for landing. I had a baby on my lap so was incredibly cramped for space.
Try and time a feed around take-off and landing and you should be fine. By the time my eldest was 4 she had flown multiple short-haul and a couple of long-haul flights so was happy (and excited) to fly with toys/books/games to distract her - it's a great experience for them. Agree with comments about what to expect with help from friends/relatives. We went as part of a large group including grandparents but only had a couple of hours to ski together - which was fair enough, it was their holiday too but we hadn't discussed it before we went and had assumed we'd get more time.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
Agree with comments about what to expect with help from friends/relatives.
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We took my mother on our first ski holiday, self catering in Austria. she was not a skier. We did 2 weeks. The complex had a creche but the 4 year old was not over keen. My mum looked after her in the mornings, the first week, when the rest of us were in ski school. She prepared lunch for us, then we did the afternoon looking after and I cooked the evening meal. The second week the 4 year old was in ski school and my mum liked nothing better than to sit with a coffee and cake watching the littlies.
It worked well and now, as a grandma, I do tons of looking after kids on various sorts of holidays. But obviously it all depends on your family. I don't think it's reasonable to expect childless friends to share child care - and obviously not wise to "assume" anything - but two families with similar age kids can probably do some good deals!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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We are thinking of booking St Anton taking our 1 year old with Esprit but am concerned with luggage limits of 1x20kg case per adult, as we take our own board & boots helmets etc we are going to really struggle as cannot book additional luggage with Esprit. How have others gone on? We may considering using sendmybag.com or similar.
Lastly a question I forgot to ask them on the phone, do they provide car seats for babies?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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When we travelled with Esprit when our youngest was 1 we did not get a car seat provided and have never seen one. I presume the you will need to book "ski carriage" for your board so that won't need to come out of the baggage allowance.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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We took our boy when he was 6 months. We went to Samoens with a group of friends who did not have children. It was a great holiday. Me and my wife took it in turns to look after the child on alternate mornings/afternoons. Some of our friends looked after him one morning so we could ski together which was very nice.
If you are looking after the child yourself then it is just a matter of altering your expectations.
We went again when he was 18 months with different friends and their children. Again split child care to mornings/afternoons but was great fun sledging etc with the kids - just a different holiday to going without a child.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@scoman, are you sure you can't book your skis/ boots as separate carriage? This is possible on virtually all package holidays, albeit with an extra charge (around £40 per set, return)
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Sorry if I was not clear, you can book board/skis however we usually fill up board bag with 2x board, boots, helmets etc for us both however Esprit said they were very strict on only ski/board in bag. If we had to put additional items in our normal luggage plus all little'uns stuff we really would be pushing it with only 40kg limit.
Have spoken with Crystal ski this am, if booked through them and flying with Thomson then the child gets 10kg luggage, if flying say with Easyjet simply pay for the luggage we want to take therefore problem solved! i cannot understand how Esprit a child ski holiday specialist cannot accommodate this.
Usually diy ski holidays therefore still exploring all possibilities options and can't wait to get the nipper into the mountains & her first snow angel 
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@scoman, ah understood now - I suspect in reality it will probably depend on who you are flying with... Might be worth starting a new thread on that topic. Certainly when I took my skis out last year with Esprit nobody checked inside my ski bag and I am pretty sure it wasn't even weighed! However it was in a single ski bag so maybe the fact that you couldn't squash much more in there even if you tried may have been the reason?
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| under a new name wrote: |
| I ahve no issue with babies wailing as that's what they do. 4 year olds kicking the back of my seat. However will be firmly rebuked. |
Amen to that. I also have no tolerance for people who tut at crying babies.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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well after a two week delay our daughter freya was born on 24/9/15. just over three weeks later my partner has decided she does not want to take a 6 month old skiing and has told me take my two boys. whilst i would have tried it and we had two grannies wanting to come and watch the wee one, there is not a lot to do in a ski resort with a 6 month old so 2017 will be her first ski holiday when at least she will be able to play in the snow and do a bit sledging.
now to decide where i am going to take my two boys
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@scoman, if you're going with Esprit, they have tonnes of stuff you can use while you're there eg buggies, sterilisers, baby bath etc so you don't need to take the proverbial kitchen sink! One trip I rremember we had to have everything weighed inc hand luggage and with 2 adults, one toddler and one preschooler, everything including skis, board and 2 x boots was 65kg, a good 25kg was paid for as part of of the two ski / board allowances and at least another 10kg would have been hand luggage so I wouldn't worry about baggage allowances with Esprit!
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FAQ
Our hearts sank thinking we were stuck on that train for the rest of the day. However a retired couple came and sat next to us and fortunately liked babies and the rest of the journey was fine!
