 Poster: A snowHead
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As widely predicted France, Italy and Austria are leaving the ISIA (Internation Ski Instructors Association) at the end of 2015 due to different opinions on training and working as a ski instructor. They will now syndicated to the FEMPS and have informed the EU authorities of this change. BASI was also an original FEMPS signatory.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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What does this mean for instructors and their customers?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
| Yip - surprised this hasn't made headlines on English language web sites yet. |
It will now and in fact you've virtually written the article for them. I share your views, be interesting to see what other people close to the subject think like Steward Woodward.
Be interesting to see what BASI do, I found the FEMPS foundation document online (on skimottaret's website) and BASI were a founder member.
http://pleva.net/resources/FEMPS-agreement.pdf
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Fri 15-05-15 9:37; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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FR leaving ISIA is of little consequence. They were not supporters of it and have been for many years in conflict with ISIA to the point of not attending meetings over the last 2/3 years. FR does not produce or certify instructors to ISIA level within their system. There was a vote taken about two years ago on whether there was a case to expel FR from ISIA which was narrowly defeated and it didn't proceed to a formal vote on expulsion.
The 'likely' court case and MOU are two different topics. I say 'likely' as that may never come. The review stage is under way - not sure on expected outcome, Sept or Dec this year?
ISIA made statements based on other member nations feedback. They were speaking on behalf of others.
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| http://www.isiaski.org/en/3/index.html wrote: |
| Worldwide 40 states are members of ISIA |
FRA, ITA and AUT leaving, is hardly a global scale exodus. The world does not revolve around the European Alps. I see this as toys being thrown out of the proverbial prams.
Okay so they no longer want to be part of ISIA, big deal. This has absolutely nothing to do with the devaluing of BASI qualifications, and it has no bearing upon working rights. These countries are still European member states, and like it or not current issues progressing through the courts will ultimately determine individuals' rights to work.
FRA's representative (the SNMSF) is pulling out because they are feeling the pressure now that it is becoming common knowledge that they are little more than a syndicate, something which is illegal within Europe.
Did anyone hear about the most recent case against them with regards to age discrimination? http://www.non-discrimination.net/content/media/41-FR-ND-CASS%20Age%20Ski%20monitors.pdf
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^ France had the most members of ISIA ? (via ESF).
They are also the largest alpine nation in terms of ski instructors and holiday makers <etc>
Anyone thinking this isn't big news has their head in sand.
Especially when Austria and Italy leave the party with them.
In terms of affiliated members I would guess the ISIA must be at least 30% down ?
Yes the ISIA has 40 member nations.
However how many of those countries can you make a living as a ski instructor in ?
UK, USA, Canada, NZ, Australia, Japan, Sweden, Norway, Argentina, CH would be the main ski nations still in....
Sadly the value of ISIA as an association can only be reduced when 3 large alpine nations withdraw at the same time ?
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It's going to be like one of those rock bands where only the original bass guitar player remains.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
^ France had the most members of ISIA ? (via ESF).
They are also the largest alpine nation in terms of ski instructors and holiday makers <etc>
Anyone thinking this isn't big news has their head in sand.
Especially when Austria and Italy leave the party with them.
In terms of affiliated members I would guess the ISIA must be at least 30% down ?
Yes the ISIA has 40 member nations.
However how many of those countries can you make a living as a ski instructor in ?
UK, USA, Canada, NZ, Australia, Japan, Sweden, Norway, Argentina, CH would be the main ski nations still in....
Sadly the value of ISIA as an association can only be reduced when 3 large alpine nations withdraw at the same time ? |
How does FR not being in the ISIA group affect holiday makers or their own instructors. Can't think I've ever heard of a holidaymaker discussing an ESF lesson in terms of FR's membership of ISIA. In that respect it has zero bearing on the matter.
It's really not that big a new story. The FR decision has been a long time coming. They have thrown their toys out of the pram and then thrown the pram as well. They have enough internal wrangling to deal with as it is.
Being realistic, FR are meaningless in terms of ISIA. Italy and AUT more so. Especially AUT.
Could you highlight what you see as the potential impact on other member nations and why you view this as the serious matter you are portraying it as? What does it change? How does it effect their training and grading? How does it impact employment?
FR will still be where they are in snow sports - they just won't be members of ISIA.
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No more cheap lift tickets for ISIA holders ?
More seriously it seems to me that there is a move towards a single level of qualification, and that the days of multi level licensing could be numbered. Which would be a shame.
Does anyone have the back ground why Austria left, or was it simply a group move with France and Italy ?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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^ @skison
so what is the benefit of the ISIA then ?
why bother getting your international ISIA L3 stamp. or L4 card ?
which previously were a global bench mark for all associations.... (admittedly with france requiring TT / ET- but this isn't just about France).
time will tell what the true impact is.
I am genuinely interested to hear other thoughts and opinions : especially a European view of things.
Your "whatever - the frogs are in a huff again, but it doesn't matter" response is perhaps one way to look it....
either way it certainly is news worthy ?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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It was never a global benchmark for all associations, you noted an exception yourself @Haggis_Trap ... France did not recognise the stamp unless accompanied by the TT.
Withdrawing from ISIA is not indicative of a lack of recognising it's qualifications ... the two might go hand in hand, but it is not necessarily so.
The SNMSF/ESF for example are not members of BASI, and yet they recognise the ISTD.
What is the benefit of the ISIA then? is a good question. I guess it could be answered by answering the question What is the ISIA's purpose?
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Something I posted recently:
The International Ski Instructors Association ISIA what does it mean to us professional instructors? I would like to share my view and opinion, which I must make clear is my personal view.
I have always held the ISIA is high esteem since beginning my career as a ski teacher. It was always an aspirational goal to reach a level of qualification where I would be entitled to be a member and have the silver stamp on my licence. Back in the day it was seen as the pinnacle of ones qualification pathway and journey!
For many instructors it is still a goal that takes hard work, dedication and determination. I am confident that the ISIA national members associations who sign up to the minimum standards all deliver great instructor education ( in my experience the ones I have seen certainly do). Different associations deliver their national training to meet their market needs, this is totally logical and will of course mean there are differences in the training and the way it is delivered. Different nations different markets and so on.
For me the ISIA standard indicates a minimum education level at each stage ( stamp and card) that indicates the competence levels and skills that instructor has gone through and been measured and tested against. Of course these are the minimum competence levels and an association may well exceed these in their training ( their market may dictate that for example).
The ISIA minimum standards provide a platform and a frame work for associations to build and develop their training against. The ISIA MS can provide a matrix for employers to cross reference minimum education levels for instructors they may be interested in employing ( where the national legislation permits). Any more importantly the ISIA MS gives our customers and potential customers an objective set of educational and training stages they can understand.
As an organisation the ISIA provides a platform, talking shop and opportunity for an exchange of ideas with our fellow professionals around the world. We can all learn and therefore improve what is ultimately the goal ( in my view) to provide a safe and enjoyable experience to our guests.
Global mutual recognition of instructors qualifications? That’s one big task! Some nations regulate, some don’t, one market demands this, another that and so on.
However as an indication of the minimum professional standards ( wherever in the world) I think the ISIA standard says a lot!
Some very credible members are active in ISIA ( USA, Canada, NZ, The Sandi nations, CH, Slovenia and other east European nations, Japan, Chile, Argentina to name a few.
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You know it makes sense.
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great shame but it will be interesting if they rejoin, or, if the SNMSF is replaced by another body who will represent France at the ISIA (ENSA or SIMS are obvious candidates)
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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According to document below France (9.3K), Italy (11K) and Austria (5K) were by far the 3 biggest members of ISIA (47K).
Between them they contributed a whopping 53% of ISIA affiliated members.
All 3 attended, and contributed to, the annual delegate's meeting last year. Reading between lines : look like these 3 nations believed their significantly bigger affiliated membership numbers should give them preferential voting rights ?
http://www.isiaski.org/download/20140518_ISIA_Vuokatti_Del_Minutes.pdf
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Is this new legislation? The legislators must be  idiots and clearly don't understand the market...
In most resorts, and especially the larger ones, there are more Dutch and Danish (and to a lesser extent German, Eastern European and British) instructors than Austrian insturctors; no ski school (and their local owners) will be able to cater for/profit from the huge demand for lessons in peak weeks without them.
I haven't heard of anyone having issues with the legislation anyway though. There are bazillions of Dutch and Danish instructors working just in St Anton - and plenty of them qualified in their home nation's system.
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Thu 18-06-15 19:32; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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They could only allow Austrian qualified instructors under an ISTD rather than recognising any other qualification.
But I think there has been some info omitted as there is no way that there are enough Austrians to flll the jobs.
Land Salzburg make sure that you have arranged a job at a Salzburg ski school after you have qualified if you are a foreigner.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Oddly the Italians and Austrians decided to attend Interski in Argentina. Perhaps they figured they were still members until the end of the year so go out with head held high?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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And the footage I saw, the Austrian team were easiest on the eye ski wise.
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@Haggis_Trap, Interski is the umbrella organisation over ISIA, IVSI and something else for universities, the congress is for all but mainly ISIA
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Mike Pow, yeah they skied nice, I also liked the Aussies...
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I'm used to getting a hefty ISIA lift-pass discount in FR and AUT
Have these days now gone?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| davidof wrote: |
| As widely predicted France, Italy and Austria are leaving the ISIA (Internation Ski Instructors Association) at the end of 2015 due to different opinions on training and working as a ski instructor. They will now syndicated to the FEMPS and have informed the EU authorities of this change. BASI was also an original FEMPS signatory. |
A source (BASI) certainly trailed this ... a few months after that posting (October 2015)
https://gallery.mailchimp.com/a38e224e94667bf5aa3af19f9/files/ISIA_Update_September_2015_proof_read.pdf
It may or may not have been "widely predicted" (by who?) ... but the outcome has seemingly been more complex. Austria and Italy would appear to be current members of the ISIA, though ISIA membership has indeed fallen from 40 countries to 39 ... according to their own chart ...
https://www.facebook.com/groups/BASIMembers/permalink/10153793722465826/
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