 Poster: A snowHead
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And has your daughter's level of unauthorized absence reached the level which (according to the Code of Conduct) would trigger a Penalty Notice?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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My BIL resigned from the board of governors at his daughter's school after she was refused permission to attend a family wedding which was on a Friday afternoon in September. The wedding was initially 3.30pm but had been brought forward to 2pm at the request of ths school so it didn't interfer with parents collecting their children, as the church and school share the same grounds. She attended anyway, and the ridiculous thing was that many of the children came out of class at the end of the ceremony to throw confetti at the bride and groom, as the bride had been their classroom assistant until the end of the previous term 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| henzerani wrote: |
@alti - dude, the evidence seems to be that parents are doing as they are told and not taking their children out of school as much. Attendance in my daughter's school is much improved, as are results - although I suspect the latter is due to the headteacher and his staff.
My moral handwringing is about to begin. I am a governor at my daughter's school and I have just taken her out of school for an unauthorised week skiing. The head of governors has left it to my "moral compass" as to whether I resign or not. To be honest, I'm not really upholding the values of the school, am I?. |
What is the chair of gov moral compass re the kids going on trips to theme parks etc organised near end of term/year by the school. Will the chair resign for allowing such blatant mass absenteeism from classroom learning ?
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That's the most ridiculous things I've heard for a while, @Hells Bells.
Not sure I'd have resigned though. I'm not familiar with the role of Governors, they didn't exist in my day, but presumably they are not expected just to blindly support the school's top management in everything? A few rebellious ones might be quite healthy.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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On the whole I think there is far too much resigning - in politics, corporate life and elsewhere. There should be room for a bit of disagreement. Having said that, it's quite tough for the governors to enforce the rules when the governors don't obey them. The accusation of hypocrisy would be hard to counter.
@speed098, Thats nit really comparable, even if it might seem like it. Rightly or wrongly those silly trips are not regarded as absenteeism by the DfE or the governors. The issue is purely whether a governor is failing to uphold the standards they are duty bound (and legally bound?) to enforce in the school.
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@foxtrotzulu,
I know but it does demonstrate the hypocrisy of dual standards. We can not take children out for an activity holiday when they are so concerned re child health/obesity with children not exercising enough, but it is fine to go to a theme park for a day in school time.
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@NickyJ, @rob@rar, I feel I've enhanced my daughter's education. But I haven't enhanced her school's absence policy. And I've done it "illegally". The chair of governors is happy that I declare it as an interest but the headteacher has quoted a number of learned works that suggest all children suffer academically if they take time out of school. And, of course, his job is to educate children and he is measured by their academic results. And quite rightly so. But if a governor put their own child before the school, isn't that what everyone would do?
Truth is I don't really have the time I once had so I am looking to step down, but I don't really want to go this way.
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@henzerani, I feel that every parent should put there Childs interests first and ahead of the schools.... And exactly why I changed my daughters school.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@pam w, yes, Hampshire's policy sneakily changed during the summer from 20 sessions to 10 sessions, which equals the 5 days we have taken her out for. I checked with my county councillor and apparently that is not something they need to vote on.
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I don't know what the duties of a school governor are. Are they "legally" required to enforce and uphold the rules?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@speed098, they don't really do that. The absence ruling seems to be taken quite seriously. But they are in junior school so theme parks are not on the agenda!
But to my way of thinking learning to do stuff with other people, seeing new things, experiencing high emotions, and eating massively over priced food would count as education.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@henzerani,
When they get to senior school they will get these days out be it individual day trips or on a Paris trip a day at Disney at the end. If it is the single day trips those who do not go will be in school but not doing lessons.
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@pam w, no, but there's a bit in the governors code of conduct about upholding the standards of the school. There's no legal requirement. Which is why the chair of governors has left it to my moral compass. I need to decide how guilty I feel. And I guess that's resolved it in my mind: I don't feel very guilty at all so I won't be resigning. 
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You know it makes sense.
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@speed098, that sounds ethically hypocritical. But technically it is less than 5 days and that is what the law says 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| henzerani wrote: |
| @speed098, that sounds ethically hypocritical. But technically it is less than 5 days and that is what the law says |
But they also say ever single session missed is important plus it is 2 sessions per child and could be 7-800 or more children so in the overall picture it is a large level of schooling missed.
Schools LEA and Gov. like to throw stats at us re children missing school well they need to get used to us doing the same to them. At most I would be responsible for between 10-14 missed sessions the head, chair of gov and the LEA are responsible for far in excess of a 1000 possibly in some schools well over 2000 missed sessions per year.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Quick example my youngest at senior school, the school between day trips days to Disney etc etc with a school of over 1000 pupils is probably responsible for the loss of over 3-4000 sessions every single year.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@pam w, I think he resigned more in protest than because he felt he had not supported the school. It was indeed ridiculous, but it was just after the new guidelines came into being, so perhaps the (new) head teacher didn't think there was an alternative. The bride's brother is getting married on a Friday next month. Although my niece won't be there this time, the groom's nieces will be, and they are also taking time off from the same school, so I will be interested to see what the situation is.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I've never really understood the argument that skiing is educational and should therefore be allowed during term time. Indeed, but there is no rule saying you can't do educational things on the holidays.
I also don't agree with the theme park argument. Just because the government gives some people authorisation to carry Tasers, drop bombs, incarcerate people, etc. Doesn't mean the rest of us should be allowed to. Putting that to one side surely the logical response should be to argue against theme park visits rather than using them as justification. Two wrongs don't make a right.
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@foxtrotzulu, I don't think skiing or theme parks are academically educational. But they are all part of the wealth of experience that contributes to a well rounded individual.
The trouble is that you can't quantify that. But you can quantify academic success. And so you can set expectations and measure them. A politician's dream. So almost all of our education system is aimed at GCSEs an A levels and degrees. And we are doing better each year. But at the end of it the young adults with their shiny degrees still can't problem solve because they haven't got any experience to draw on. And they can't do things like turn up on time or work as a team either. That is what we as parents teach them.
Having said that kids seem to be way more confident that my generation ever were.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@henzerani, The issue of whether modern education is too exam focused is a valid one, but it's not terribly relevant to this question of school attendance. You raise the subject of teenagers who are unable to get to work on time. I'd argue that parents who are complicit in their children bunking off school to go skiing is hardly setting the right example and instilling the right work ethic. As an employer, what would you think of a worker who, when refused permission to take leave during a certain month, just went anyway?
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@foxtrotzulu aha, in one fell swoop I've ruined her.
More seriously ... I hope this is more nuanced than that. She understands that our decision has consequences just as a worker who went on an unauthorised holiday would face consequences. She also understands that there are different opinions on the issue and I've made it clear that I don't consider myself "right" and the school "wrong".
Funnily enough, we spoke to the parents of 3 other children while we were there who had had permission to take their children out of school on educational grounds (2 of the children were 14). And another parent told me that Scotland has a different system that seems to be similar to the old system in Hampshire. My headteacher tells me that he does not have the authority to authorise absence.
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| foxtrotzulu wrote: |
I've never really understood the argument that skiing is educational and should therefore be allowed during term time. Indeed, but there is no rule saying you can't do educational things on the holidays.
I also don't agree with the theme park argument. Just because the government gives some people authorisation to carry Tasers, drop bombs, incarcerate people, etc. Doesn't mean the rest of us should be allowed to. Putting that to one side surely the logical response should be to argue against theme park visits rather than using them as justification. Two wrongs don't make a right. |
FWIW I don't agree with what appears to be the accepted policy. However, @foxtrotzulu's observations are right. They provide the basis for a succinct response to the "letter" proposed earlier in the thread:
"Dear Parent,
The educational benefits of your proposed trip to the French Alps are achievable through a trip scheduled during one of the many periods of holiday around which the school calendar is built. You should understand that your proposed absence would be marked as unauthorised on the school register.
Yours......"
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| speed098 wrote: |
| What is the chair of gov moral compass re the kids going on trips to theme parks etc organised near end of term/year by the school. Will the chair resign for allowing such blatant mass absenteeism from classroom learning ? |
The key difference is that planned trips, are exactly that... PLANNED. A trip out, whether it be to an educational resource or indeed a theme park is planned into the way a school delivers a curriculum. Parents removing their children at will is not planned and therefore, lessons missed.
Whilst I’m in favour of the Head being able to authorise absence, comparing this that an school trip is a poor comparison.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| RichClark wrote: |
| speed098 wrote: |
| What is the chair of gov moral compass re the kids going on trips to theme parks etc organised near end of term/year by the school. Will the chair resign for allowing such blatant mass absenteeism from classroom learning ? |
The key difference is that planned trips, are exactly that... PLANNED. A trip out, whether it be to an educational resource or indeed a theme park is planned into the way a school delivers a curriculum. Parents removing their children at will is not planned and therefore, lessons missed.
Whilst I’m in favour of the Head being able to authorise absence, comparing this that an school trip is a poor comparison. |
NO!
Because the schools LEA and the government make it very clear every single day is important. Just because they can schedule it into the term does not detract from it being a day NOT! studying/learning. They have a finite time and can not make up that day unless they burden the kids with extra work out of school time.
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@speed098, This argument is circular - holidays\trips are all valuable learning opportunities, I presume we agree on this? Hence the argument for authorised absence to allow parents to take children out of school for a weeks term time skiing.
However, if you believe this, then planned time out of the class is still learning and thus schools are making the use of every school day to deliver the curriculum.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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As another example of how 'schools' will fudge the system almost as much, if not more than parents...
My eldest daughters secondary school has adopted a new approach to parents evenings, they are now parents afternoon. So when these run a significant portion of the students leave school early and not always just if it's their years who are under review as it will depend on room, teacher availability and my daughter had an afternoon off last week when another year had their review afternoon. To allow this they have the children in for the afternoon register and then get sent home immediately. The cynic in me says this is purely so that the children are not officially recorded as absent but I may be wrong. Now this is only 1 session/lesson in her case due to the timings of the periods and I doubt it would have a significant impact on her learning but from my perspective it just seems like the school is fudging the system in this case to their own ends.
BTW the justification from the school is that it makes it easier for parents to attend the review sessions, despite a large number complaining that they would have to take time off work to attend so end up not going.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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It strikes me that with an authorised absense the school has the option of setting work that can be completed during the trip (e.g. read this book to page x, write a report/keep a diary of your trip, complete this worksheet etc.) which may help to mitigate the impact of the lost schooling. If the absense is unauthorised then presumably the school won't get that opportunity - which seems like a bit of an unintended consequence contrary to the stated intention of the policy.
It's also worth noting that some schools do organise skiing trips for groups of students during term time (we shared a plane with one on the way back from Verona last week). Of course, I get that them taking a group allows them to work the curriculum around it - which is not the case with family trips.
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@Tubaski, I'm not sure there is any real reason why catch-up work could not be set for an unauthorised absence in the same way as an authorised absence. However, I don't believe that setting children catch-up work is anything like as effective/valuable as being taught by a real live teacher and I also think that teachers have enough work to do without setting catch-ip work.
As an aside, while I don't dispute there are some theoretical educational benefits to a skiing trip I often feel that the proponents of term-time holidays tend to massively exaggerate them.
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You know it makes sense.
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Well, we've been fined. But more worryingly there is a bunch of paperwork telling us that if she misses anymore school time we will be prosecuted, fined or imprisoned and that social services will have to assess whether our daughter is safe will us.
Apart from the police state tone of the letter, has anyone been down this route and do the county councils actually try to prosecute?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| henzerani wrote: |
Well, we've been fined. But more worryingly there is a bunch of paperwork telling us that if she misses anymore school time we will be prosecuted, fined or imprisoned and that social services will have to assess whether our daughter is safe will us.
Apart from the police state tone of the letter, has anyone been down this route and do the county councils actually try to prosecute? |
I suppose the fine is no great surprise, but the scary letter is a bit unpleasant. I have little doubt they would prosecute if it happened again but can't see your daughter being taken into care/sold at auction for a little while yet.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Prosecution is possible, and has been happening in more and more cases;
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-33861985
In reality, some councils are more prone to action than others. For example; Cheshire has prosecuted over 300 families in the last 5 years; Birmingham over 1000. I don't know about Southampton!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Caught this on the radio yesterday - http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b06zcg4v Listen from around 15.40
They had someone examine the governments claim that a week off school reduces your GCSE scores by 25% - as expected, deliberately misleading.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@element, A couple of points:
1. Nick Gibb wasn't saying that a
| Quote: |
| week off school reduces your GCSE scores by 25% |
. He was saying that a week off school [during the run-up to GCSE years] reduces your chances of getting 'good' GCSE's by 25%. Now I'm not sure many people would define the typical measure of 5 A-C grades as 'good' so I think using the Ebacc is probably reasonable. Yes, he's probably picking a different metric to prove his point, but I'm not sure that's unusual on any side of the argument.
2. The whole thing comes down to causation vs correlation and even according to the BBC Radio producer (not necessarily an educational expert?) there simply isn't the data to prove or disprove this.
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@foxtrotzulu,
Fairplay - I was recalling his claim from memory so got that bit wrong. Still strikes me as deliberately misleading. He is using the 25% figure, arrived at by being very selective with the data, to directly attack parents who take their children out of school for a holiday. It's likely that he knows that absence for this reason will represent only a tiny proportion of overall absence, and that much more common reasons for absence are likely to be bigger predictors of a decrement in performance (i.e. illness, truancy, difficult social circumstances etc.)
Yes it's not possible to infer causality, but in presenting that 25% figure, that's exactly what he is inviting people to do.
It would also presumably be quite easy to identify those students who've been taken out of school for a holiday and compare their grades with what might be expected on average, but there doesn't seem to be any rush to do that  .
That said, taking your kids out during a GCSE or A level year does seem a bit irresponsible to me. I don't see the problem for other years though, provided the child is doing ok and can catch up.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@element, was that the same programme that also cast doubt on th Chief Medical officer's argument for not drinking alcohol?
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Family life is about balancing different commitments, it should not be the Goverments decision to criminalise how families should do it, I'm glad my kids are beyond school age .
No family values at all this asinine law
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Good news that school is implementing the policy. Loads of excuses as to why it's good for the children/they don't miss much/can't get time of work/cat was ill/ etc etc. Most of the time the real reason is that it's cheaper to go skiing when you're not supposed to go and everything else is a smokescreen - a bit of honesty doesn't go amiss. Why should those that obey the rules pay more than those who don't?
At the end of the day the rules are clear and I pay taxes to fund schools. As I've said before, not turning up for school is just like not turning up for a hospital consultant's appointment. When something is free at the point of delivery, people tend to assume it's free - it's not.
If school is not a great use of pupils' time and they would really learn more by being out of school, then lets reduce the term time, reduce teachers' pay to reflect reduced hours and reduce taxes . . . simples. Not sure that would of course be seen as the right thing to do but is the natural conclusion to 'they don't miss much'
It's a requirement to go to school - you can't decide not to go just because you don't think it's right. I don't think we should have a 70mph speed limit on motorways but I still have to obey the law or risk prosecution.
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@alti - dude, If you disobey the speed limit you can kill someone.
If you have family time you can save someone's life from mental health problems.
My kids were taken out of school to no apparent detriment to their education.
They both got to University, the family time together is irreplaceable.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@T Bar, not much evidence that driving at 70 or 80 makes much difference to survival rates - the big difference is between 20 and 30 mph. PS Skiing kills people as well.
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My kids were taken out of school to no apparent detriment to their education.
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Fantastic - shows that the term time is too long so George should reduce the amount of time kids spend in schools and make savings . . . . really?
Shame you were in an area that made your kids go to school 365 days er year - most schools have plenty of holiday time to allow family time together. . . . .
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@alti - dude,
Some of us actually have to work during school holiday time.
Pretty sure neither me nor the kids will ever regret the times we had together.
Speeding does kill, skiing actually carries a lower risk to health than driving.
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