 Poster: A snowHead
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| narbs wrote: |
| rob@rar wrote: |
| Frosty the Snowman wrote: |
| I think we are in great danger of losing sight of what the purpose of education is. |
It's to make sure kids pass lots of exams so that nice Mr Gove can look good. Isn't it? |
It's the nice Miss Morgan now. About as qualified as Gove.
But the point is a good one. Constant short-termism as one SoS after another feels they need to make their mark in the 3 years before they're shifted to Environment or the House of Lords. Estelle Morris was the last decent one. |
Obviously a really bad idea to entrust education to the state, at least in a democracy.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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From @Layne, link got to love the comment by the spokesman from the DfE.
"But a spokesman for the DfE said: "It is a myth that missing school even for a short time is harmless to a child's education"
Hopefully this spokesman will now be pushing through fines for head teachers and Directors of Education at each LEA who organise/allow children to go on such splendid educational trips to places like Alton Towers or M&M world organised by the school.
Or are we parents expected to just sit back and be taken for a ride by these discriminatory scum who think they can do what they want to our children and us.
The quote from the bottom of the article shows the true reason why this was brought in.
"A Freedom of Information request to councils by the Press Association found - across the 98 councils that responded - 86,010 fines had been issued in 2014-15 for pupil absence, either because of holiday or truancy.
This is up from 62,204 the year before and 32,512 in 2012-13."
unfortunately most in parliament have not got the intelligence to have realised just how much it cost to take each person to court, they just hoped everyone would role over and pay the fine at the start
I strongly believe our Gov. want the next generation to grow up believing they have no right to question anything the Gov. do. I see it in the way the head at the school one of our children attends has changed over the past 4-5 years even 1940's German's had more rights and freedom.
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Every year the same story-poor british children - they miss life - there is so much to learn outside school. 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I have heard a recent story of a family whose young children were refused permission to attend their parent's wedding. No, they weren't travelling abroad and attended the school attached to the church where the wedding was taking place. Of course they ignored the refusal, and they weren't fined, but I really think it is ridiculous that you have to ask for permission to take your children to your own wedding.
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@speed098, isn't the point of school, from our leaders' point of view, to teacher us to conform and fit into society? Doing what you are told is a very big part of that.
It is ironic, though, that the party of family values, personal responsibility and small government is telling us that families are not responsible enough to make good decisions for their children and that the state has to make them for us. Fortunately, the party of law and order will soon have no police officers left to enforce their will.
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@Layne, I imagine that as the LGA's constituency are the institutions responsible for running state education, they have a pretty good case for a "Remit".
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@cameronphillips2000, Great letter, it's copied to my desk top!
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| pam w wrote: |
| @Layne, I imagine that as the LGA's constituency are the institutions responsible for running state education, they have a pretty good case for a "Remit". |
http://www.local.gov.uk/about
What is the LGA?
We are a politically-led, cross-party organisation that works on behalf of councils to ensure local government has a strong, credible voice with national government. We aim to influence and set the political agenda on the issues that matter to councils so they are able to deliver local solutions to national problems.
Our business plan
Our focus is on achieving four outcomes:
1. Funding for local government
2. Devolution
3. Economic growth, jobs and housing
4. Sector-led improvement
I suspect it's just a pain for them to deal with and so regardless of whether it is an educationally sound policy they would like it scrapped.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Hells Bells wrote: |
| ... I really think it is ridiculous that you have to ask for permission to take your children to your own wedding. |
Ridiculous to ask? I don't think so, seems to be just a matter of common courtesy IMO. Ridiculous to deny the request, either because the headteacher didn't feel he had the flexibility to approve the absence or because he is overly zealous about attendance.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| pam w wrote: |
| @Layne, I imagine that as the LGA's constituency are the institutions responsible for running state education, they have a pretty good case for a "Remit". |
For this particular issue aren't the LGA acting just as a lobby group, albeit extremely well-informed and carrying a democratic mandate?
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Hells Bells wrote: |
| ... I really think it is ridiculous that you have to ask for permission to take your children to your own wedding. |
Ridiculous to ask? I don't think so, seems to be just a matter of common courtesy IMO. Ridiculous to deny the request, either because the headteacher didn't feel he had the flexibility to approve the absence or because he is overly zealous about attendance. |
We'd to take our youngest out of school for one day recently to attend his uncles wedding (although it was on a Saturday distance and traveling time meant we had no other realistic choice other than to spend the Friday, and Sunday, sat in a car).
The thing is, we didn't ask for permission for him to miss a day of school. We informed the school he would be absent a couple of weeks in advance, and the reason why. Scotland though, so no silly draconian fines. Incidentally, I think it went down as 'authorised absence' if I remember the reply from the Head Teacher (I only glanced at the letter though as what it was recorded as made no practical difference).
Incidentally, it may not be accurate, but my wife, who's a teacher herself, was informed by one of her colleagues that our local authority, Aberdeenshire, has a policy allowing you to take your kids out of school to go skiing. Disappointingly for her that policy, if it does exist, doesn't seem to extend to the teaching staff.
Son's primary school runs a Feb ski trip for P6 every year, in school term time, which he's looking forward to going on next year. They also do a trip to an outdoor centre in P7, again in term time.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Joy Zipper wrote: |
I would never take my children out of school for a holiday.
Perhaps this is because I pay for their education and I see education as very high on my priority list. Taking time off school lowers the standards that you are setting for your children and this can permeate through life. If they see that education is something that you can opt out of then there is more chance that they will do so. I don't think that this is giving out the correct message.
I also just don't get the "but holidays are so much more expensive during term time" argument. We live in a free market economy, supply and demand dictates prices. Nobody has a devine right for a holiday abroad. If you (or I) can't afford it - don't go.
Lights fuse and retires to a distance....... |
I have no idea what part of the country you are in but up here in the frozen north all the private schools I know get more holidays than the state schools. Take the October half term as an example. State schools were off 12th - 16th October but many private schools were off 12th - 23rd or 19th to 30th. The same applies at February half term. This means that most kids at these schools can go at the slightly cheaper week either side of half term without missing any school. Summer holidays this year was the same story for many private schools. They finished a week earlier than the state schools so again managed to benefit from the slightly cheaper costs.
Like @Ravelin, I inform the Head at my sons school that he will be absent as we are going skiing. We tend to go the week before half term or in the case next year, the week before the Easter break. This is on the advice of Mrs Gaza who is a primary school teacher. She says that the best time to take a child out is the week before a holiday as generally they will be doing less 3R type work and more 'creative' work. I also have no concerns about taking him out. He is very bright and in 'top group' in all the main subjects. If he was struggling I then consider the appropriateness of taking him out.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| henzerani wrote: |
@speed098, isn't the point of school, from our leaders' point of view, to teacher us to conform and fit into society? Doing what you are told is a very big part of that.
It is ironic, though, that the party of family values, personal responsibility and small government is telling us that families are not responsible enough to make good decisions for their children and that the state has to make them for us. Fortunately, the party of law and order will soon have no police officers left to enforce their will. |
So you are happy to be accused of something the Gov./Police decide you are guilty without asking you for any information, you are convicted and punished with no redress?
There is no problem teaching kids to follow laws but a big difference between that and what is happening. A child is still a human being and is entitled to due process even in a school environment. A head teacher that does not ensure that process is followed in my view is no better than any radical dictator. My kids have been brought up that when they are wrong they admit it, when they are right they stand their ground. The head at this school used to be great but over the past 5-6 years the change has been on going. Many teachers there are not happy ( far too many for the school if change does not happen to remain the excellent school it has been) This heads policy is and has been for the past 4years plus seriously effecting the attitudes within the school. I could give very specific details but it is not right to do so as the head would not necessarily see this and be able to respond.
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Poster: A snowHead
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My wife and I are both hospital doctors. We do not get to chose when we take time off, at least not when we need this time to coincide, so we take what arrangements we can, to enjoy some family time together. Our daughter is in year 1 and we have just booked a week's ski holiday (her first ever) in the Alps. The school has a policy of fining £120 per parent for unauthorized leave. I think this is a ridiculous amount that is meant to just terrorize people, and we are planning to say to the school that she will travel with us to a family wedding instead. If the school had more reasonable policies regarding leave then I would have no problems being honest.
P.S: I quote from the NAHT 'advice and guidance' document
| Quote: |
Guidance on authorised absence in schools (October 2014)
Guidance on authorised absence in schools
There is some debate about what ‘exceptional circumstances’ means when deciding whether to grant absence for students during term time. We believe it is valuable to have some guiding principles to back schools in their decisions and provide consistency. This guidance has no statutory authority and is not imposed upon schools.
1. The decision to authorise absence is at the head teacher’s discretion based on their assessment of the situation. Circumstances vary from school to school and so there can be no absolute rules on this subject.
2. Term times are for education. This is the priority. Children and families have 175 days off school to spend time together, including weekends and school holidays. Heads will rightly prioritise attendance. The default school policy should be that absences will not be granted during term time and will only be authorised in exceptional circumstances.
3. If an event can reasonably be scheduled outside of term time then it would not be normal to authorise absence.
4. Absence during term time for holidays/vacations is therefore not considered an exceptional circumstance.
5. Absences to visit family members are also not normally granted during term time if they could be scheduled for holiday periods or outside school hours. Children may however need time to visit seriously ill relatives.
6. Absence for a bereavement of a close family member is usually considered an exceptional circumstance but for the funeral service only, not extended leave.
7. Absences for important religious observances are often taken into account but only for the ceremony and travelling time, not extended leave. This is intended for one off situations rather than regular or recurring events.
8. Schools may wish to take the needs of the families of service personnel into account if they are returning from long operational tours that prevent contact during scheduled holiday time.
9. Schools have a duty to make reasonable adjustments for students with special educational needs or disabilities.
10. Families may need time together to recover from trauma or crisis.
Guidance on authorised absence in schools (October 2014)
11. It is acceptable to take a student’s previous record of attendance into account when making decisions.
12. It is important to note that head teachers can determine the length of the authorised absence as well as whether absence is authorised at all.
Any examples provided are illustrative rather than exhaustive. The fundamental principles for defining ‘exceptional’ are rare, significant, unavoidable and short. And by 'unavoidable' we mean an event that could not reasonably be scheduled at another time.
Background
The education (pupil registration) (England) (amendment) regulations 2013, which came into force on 1 September 2013, removed references to family holidays and extended leave as well as the notional threshold of ten school days. The amendments made clear that head teachers may not grant any leave of absence during term time unless ‘exceptional circumstances’ exist. The regulations also stated that head teachers should determine the number of school days a child can be away from school if leave is granted for ‘exceptional circumstances’.
The DfE advice on school attendance (November 2013) should also be considered and read in conjunction with the 2013 regulations.
We believe the guidelines in this document to be compatible with the above policy. They clarify the definition of external circumstances; they do not change it.
Ofsted have confirmed that their focus is on whether recurrent absence is being addressed; only if there is an issue with this will they look more deeply into why the school has authorised absence. Concern about inspection should not govern schools’ decisions in this area. Head teachers are under pressure to meet overall absence thresholds however.
Variations to term time
Where schools serve communities whose patterns of work create a regular barrier to attendance and family life schools could consider changes to term times. Where this involves changes to compulsory terms, we strongly recommend this is co-ordinated across schools and local authorities in an area.
Some schools have adopted flexible term patterns, with the same overall number of days of study but some discretion to families under certain conditions. |
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@psyxologos, Which part of that advice quoted do you think is unreasonable?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@psyxologos, appreciate different areas have different rules, but are you absolutely sure on those fine amounts and when they are applied? Unless it is a private school, state school cannot fine you, it has to be a recommendation to local authority.
Northants has £60 per parent per child, but when you read the detail this will only ever apply when child has more than 10 days off in 6 month period.
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@psyxologos, the document you need to look at is the education authority's "code of conduct on unauthorised absence ".
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@pam w, Hampshire have sneakily changed theirs's since you offered me the same advice. I was trying to find the chain from this
http://www.hants.gov.uk/decisions/decisions-docs/061215-excmse-R1208134539.html
to this
http://www3.hants.gov.uk/code_of_conduct_-_issuing_penalty_notices_for_unauthorised_absence_from_schools_-_final.pdf
but I can't. The first seems to date to June 2015 and states
"3.2. Hampshire County Council will normally only issue a Penalty Notice in circumstances of more that 20 half day sessions of unauthorised absence for a family holiday, during any 10 week period, where the child is otherwise attending regularly, with the restriction that only one period of such unauthorised absence in an academic year should be exempt."
The second has changes that to
"4.2 After taking the steps set out in Section 3, Hampshire County Council or the schools in Hampshire will issue a Penalty Notice for any unauthorised absence where the pupil has been: absent for 10 or more half-day sessions (five school days) of unauthorised absence during any 100 possible school sessions – these do not need to be consecutive ... "
I would have thought that required a council vote but I can't see a minute covering that!
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| foxtrotzulu wrote: |
| @psyxologos, Which part of that advice quoted do you think is unreasonable? |
None. I was referring to the school's policy.
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| pam w wrote: |
| @psyxologos, the document you need to look at is the education authority's "code of conduct on unauthorised absence ". |
Thanks a lot. Yes, I had a look, and it seems that our circumstances might qualify as being exceptional.
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@psyxologos, is the school's policy different to the local authorities policy?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| psyxologos wrote: |
| ... and it seems that our circumstances might qualify as being exceptional. |
You would hope that if the parents can prove that they are unable to take time off from work at the same time during school holidays then it would count as exceptional circumstances. The difficulty, I suppose, is how do parents prove that?
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| Boris wrote: |
@psyxologos, appreciate different areas have different rules, but are you absolutely sure on those fine amounts and when they are applied? Unless it is a private school, state school cannot fine you, it has to be a recommendation to local authority.
Northants has £60 per parent per child, but when you read the detail this will only ever apply when child has more than 10 days off in 6 month period. |
Yes. In our case is either 10 half days (they record attendance in the morning and then the afternoon) in a term or 14 half day absences over two consecutive terms. Either way we should be OK as there have been weeks that either me or my wife do not get to see our children awake (we get home and they are either at school or they are asleep) and we have not had the family together for longer than 24 hours uninterrupted in the last 9 months at least...
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| @psyxologos, is the school's policy different to the local authorities policy? |
Slightly. The school seems to me are a little bit stricter.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| psyxologos wrote: |
| ... and it seems that our circumstances might qualify as being exceptional. |
You would hope that if the parents can prove that they are unable to take time off from work at the same time during school holidays then it would count as exceptional circumstances. The difficulty, I suppose, is how do parents prove that? |
For us it is easy. We are both hospital doctors in different hospitals, we get very little time with each other and our children, and there are weeks that one of us does not get to see the children awake at all. Night shifts, long on calls and training days away do take their toll...
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| psyxologos wrote: |
| For us it is easy. We are both hospital doctors in different hospitals, we get very little time with each other and our children, and there are weeks that one of us does not get to see the children awake at all. Night shifts, long on calls and training days away do take their toll... |
I have no doubt that's the case, and don't I underestimate the enormous difficulty in trying to balance that with some semblance of a family life. But what I'm trying to get a feel for is how parents in your circumstances can prove to a school that you can't both get a week off work together during the the two weeks that children get off at Christmas, or the week in February or the two weeks at Easter. Is there some sort of work contract or work schedule that could be used to make a solid case for exceptional circumstances?
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You know it makes sense.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| psyxologos wrote: |
| For us it is easy. We are both hospital doctors in different hospitals, we get very little time with each other and our children, and there are weeks that one of us does not get to see the children awake at all. Night shifts, long on calls and training days away do take their toll... |
I have no doubt that's the case, and don't I underestimate the enormous difficulty in trying to balance that with some semblance of a family life. But what I'm trying to get a feel for is how parents in your circumstances can prove to a school that you can't both get a week off work together during the the two weeks that children get off at Christmas, or the week in February or the two weeks at Easter. Is there some sort of work contract or work schedule that could be used to make a solid case for exceptional circumstances? |
As advance trainee doctors we change hospitals every 4-6 months. The rota comes out and we have limited input. Minimal, I should say. I guess, if it comes to that, we could provide this as proof. But to be honest I would not bother. Paying the fine is less hassle.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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But as you have seen, from the authoritative document, no action would be taken by the LEA for less than 10 sessions of unauthorised absence in any one term. Sabre rattling by the school is irrelevant ; they cannot fine parents. LEA policies vary in detail but run along the same lines.
So all the protestations, hand wringing and rants about human rights and our brave forefathers who died to save us from nazi states are really a bit unnecessary. In @psyxologos', area they could take a week's holiday per term or take a 9 day ski break, allowing time for a leisurely drive to and from the Alps.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@pam w, NB 10 sessions is 5 days as each registration marks 1 session - my daughter got a 1 session absence last year due to havin a 9am doctors appointment, which meant she missed registration but got there for start of lessons.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| psyxologos wrote: |
| I think this is a ridiculous amount that is meant to just terrorize people, and we are planning to say to the school that she will travel with us to a family wedding instead. If the school had more reasonable policies regarding leave then I would have no problems being honest. |
Personally, that is the last thing I would do. I'd be upfront and honest from the start and adopt the approach you highlighted subsequently about your work/life balance making it near impossible for you to have family time together. Your daughter could easily slip-up and talk about her skiing holiday rather than the family wedding. That may then trigger action by the school as they may feel deceit warrants action.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Gaza wrote: |
I have no idea what part of the country you are in but up here in the frozen north all the private schools I know get more holidays than the state schools. Take the October half term as an example. State schools were off 12th - 16th October but many private schools were off 12th - 23rd or 19th to 30th. The same applies at February half term. This means that most kids at these schools can go at the slightly cheaper week either side of half term without missing any school. |
Absolute nonsense.
We are in Edinburgh and October half term was last week (19th - 23rd with today being an in-service day). A week plus an in-service day in February too.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Joy Zipper wrote: |
Absolute nonsense.
We are in Edinburgh and October half term was last week (19th - 23rd with today being an in-service day). A week plus an in-service day in February too. |
Charming. Before saying I am talking 'absolute nonsense' I suggest you do a little research. Whereas Heriot's and GWC were off last week, the schools below certainly had different holidays. So my point still stands "but many private schools were off.".
Edinburgh Academy - Wednesday 14th October to Friday 23rd Oct (inclusive)
Erskine Stewarts Melville - Monday 19th to Friday 30th October
Loretto School - Monday 19th to Friday 30th October
St George's - Monday 12 October to Friday 23 October 2015 (inclusive)
Clifton Hall - Monday 19th to Friday 30th October
Edinburgh state schools Mid-term: All break Friday 9 October 2015 - Staff resume Tuesday 20 October 2015 - Pupils resume Wednesday 21 October 2015
East Lothian state schools - Monday 12th October to Friday 16th October. Monday 19th October In Service.
So, just what part of what I said was 'absolute nonsense'?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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[quote="Gaza"]
| Joy Zipper wrote: |
So, just what part of what I said was 'absolute nonsense'? |
This part :-
"all the private schools I know get more holidays than the state schools".
Followed by :-
"Whereas Heriot's and GWC were off last week".
The only caveat being that you didn't know of GHS & GWC on Friday 
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@NickyJ, I realised that 10 sessions is 5 days, but that's a week and allowed every term in the LEA quoted above
And 14 sessions would give you extra days for driving. And when you read the details it's clear that even after that there's no automatic penalty. So, all in all, hardly the disaster that some people make out.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| pam w wrote: |
@NickyJ, I realised that 10 sessions is 5 days, but that's a week and allowed every term in the LEA quoted above
And 14 sessions would give you extra days for driving. And when you read the details it's clear that even after that there's no automatic penalty. So, all in all, hardly the disaster that some people make out. |
Ah it was was your reference to 9 days which caused me to wonder.
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I meant that if you took 7 days off from school plus the weekend you could drive down and back in leisurely fashion.
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FAQ
