Taking children out of school....

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@eng_ch, That's interesting about Switzerland. I have been trying to find out how other countries tackle the issue of term-time holidays but there isn't much information out there. I had always suspected that Nice Mr Gove wasn't completely out of step with what other countries do.

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@foxtrotzulu, Nice Mr Gove may not have been completely out of touch with what other countries do, but I do think he might have been a bit out of touch with what the UK does, given that "schooling" is not mandatory; parents are required to ensure their children get an education but are reasonably free to determine how that happens. Schooling may be mandatory here, but the responsibility is still devolved to local school boards and the cantons so there are no central dictats, which allows a degree of flexibility to react to local and individual circumstances that Nice Mr Gove seems to have been trying to take away in the UK

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I know that French schools in Serre Chevalier seem to be fairly relaxed about children being missing from school in the interseason. Many of the businesses close and take their annual leave in May (there's quite a few Bank Holidays then too), and take their kids with them of course.

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@eng_ch, I think that 'full-time education' is compulsory in the UK, it's not simply a question of getting an education. I'm not at all sure parents are 'reasonably free to determine how that happens'. Their options are extremely limited and always have been. What Gove was principally trying to do was update the guidelines to enforce the rules as they were originally intended.

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@foxtrotzulu, I did mangle it a bit. I was trying to say that teachers' own opinions may affect how they present absence to parents but that it is the LEA's Code of Conduct that actually determines what happens if you take your children out of school. Having said that the Head Teacher of our local Infant school, who we know quite well through the board of governors, has never expressed an opinion other than that education should be in the classroom and is vehemently opposed to anyone taking their children out of school.

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@henzerani, where as our primary school head is happy for parents to take their kids out on holiday in term time, so long as they have otherwise good attendance. He can't officially authorise it but he delivers that news while saying "enjoy your holiday". FFS we only live once. Let's get the balance right.

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@Shimmy Alcott, as does the Head of our Junior School, where, fortunately, our daughter is now. I was illustrating a point which . . . I can't remember now.

@RobW, I have tried that in the past, but it hasn't really worked.

I'm happy enough to tell the truth: that I love skiing and I want to share that with my daughter but I can't afford to do that during school holidays. And that she seems, at the moment, to cope with some absence from school while I attempt to set an example about loving life and following dreams and getting off Minecraft and . . . other Dad stuff.

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Would there be a downside with regions staggering their school holidays, such that we're not all looking to book the same few weeks? In Scotland we at least have a couple of weeks holiday out of sync with England, so always look to use those weeks English schools are still in for holidays, e.g. for October 1/2 term we've had a reasonable price on a cottage in the Lakes for the last few years.

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@balernoStu, I think that's a good idea. There are limits to how widely spread the holidays could be of course. For example, it's not sensible to have "half-term" during Week 2 of a 12 week term. There is also the downside that some families might have their children schooled in different regions, so allowance would need to be made for that.

Be nice if teachers could take a week or two off during term time so that we could have cheaper holidays as well...

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@rob@rar, I think spreading over 3 or 4 weeks would ease the pressure quite a bit. Indeed it would not be ideal for families with schools in different regions, that's got to be tough already!

I like to think the industry would benefit, with more semi-peak weeks to keep snow sports related workers and businesses busy but avoiding the pressure of occasional mega busy weeks. Of course Europe already has a spread of holidays so maybe less of an impact in Alpine resorts. I've suggested this here before but IIRC a concern raised was that package prices could go to max for all those weeks.

You know it makes sense.

I think package prices are already at max for every week. In other words, the TOs quite naturally and sensibly adjust their prices to achieve the maximum revenue and profit for every week.

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The French experience, with prices at top notch for the whole of the four weeks February/March winter holiday, does not suggest that staggering holidays would make for much cheaper packages. I agree with @rob@rar, the market is a highly competitive one so that should make for efficient pricing (doesn't mean it's always cheap, of course - the whole thing would collapse if they always had to provide a flight, transfer and half board for £350 a week).

It's a pain having two different LEAs to cope with. That stopped my teacher daughter and SiL having a ski holiday at Easter this year, as they teach in different LEAs and the holidays were different. We live right on a county border (I live in Hampshire but even with my weedy girl arm action could throw a cricket ball a good few yards, over the river, into West Sussex.

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@cameronphillips2000, its some years ago now but the school one of my sons was at (briefly Very Happy

) had a no holiday approved code! It refused to allow a couple of days absence for a ski trip as approved sports absence . We had two other children at different schools and non of them had exactly the same holiday dates so it required some juggling to minimise absence all round. Two of the schools were fine about it and agreed it was a sports activity and that there were special circumstances due to school term dates differing. Ironically the one school which refused was a sports academy and was running its own ski trip that same week! rolling eyes

Needless to say we took the trip anyway!

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The sporting/educational thing is just convenient middle class semantics. Presumably a villa holiday in Tuscany would also qualify as you intend to go to Florence for a day. But what about a week in Marbella, swimming and donut riding are "sports"? If a kid is in race/freestyle training then fair enough but otherwise where do you draw the line? A dad taking kid out of school to travel to a midweek cup tie might technically be" sporting activity".

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@Dave of the Marmottes, I think I agree. For most of us, taking kids out of school for holidays, even if they are skiing, is a leisure activity. It is also educational in an informal way and probably helps broaden their minds and help them see the world from different points of view. But it is a holiday and I don't want to call it anything else. The Education Dept currently argues that family holidays are not as beneficial to children as being is school. I disagree with that. Our local LEA used to allow Head Teachers to authorise absence for holidays, presumably because they saw some benefit to children's education. I agreed with that. And at the moment the legal or social prohibitions aren't high enough to over ride my moral belief that a wide and varied education, quite like the one my parents gave me, is what I should be aiming to provide for my daughter.

@NickyJ, started the thread by asking how she should present the fact that she is taking her children out of school for a holiday. I guess there is the temptation to lie, especially if there is likely to be a fine and doubly especially if you are taking term time holidays because of cost. And getting it recorded as something else pleases my ideas of political subversion. But I think telling the truth is probably the bet route. It sets an example for your children. And, although I don't hold politicians in high regard when it comes to the truth, if schools go on recording holidays as unauthorised absence that does at least provide truthful data with which governments can make decisions.

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@henzerani, I know I'll sound like a stuck record to many followers of this thread, but I can't resist picking up on e a couple of things you say in the thread above.

I'm delighted that you agree with my view that a skiing holiday, is principally a leisure activity, even if it does have some educational merit as well.

The DfE doesn't argue that family holidays are not as beneficial as being in school. To put it simply the DfE view is that school time is for school and holiday time is for holidays. I.e. We don't expect you to come to school during the holidays but we do expect you to come to school during the term time. As a basic principle that seems pretty reasonable to me.

I wholeheartedly agree that, within certain guidelines, head teachers should be able to authorise absence. The trouble is that they did have some leeway but the great British public drove a coach and horses through it. What used to be up to 10 days absence for 'extraordinary circumstances' or whatever the phrasing was, became an entitlement to an extra 10 days holiday regardless of cicumstances. Heads then felt unable to refuse holiday leave leave during term time.

I don't think anyone disagrees that a wide and varied education is the ideal solution and holidays play a part in that. It's just that be should be..... during the holidays. I'm unsure what the best way of resolving this problem is, but hopefully the Gove changes will bring about a change in culture so that term time holidays go back to being the exception rather than the rule and then teachers might one day be able to authorise truly exceptional absence without these very rigid guidelines blocking some things that probably should be allowed.

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[quote="rob@rar"]

This thread does venture into many different areas, however I would just like to add that as a parent we each do what we consider is best for our children (no parent does anything with an intension to damage their children's future).

In addition education isn't a 'free' benefit from every tax payer (for those tax payers who happen to have children), it is an investment in tax payers of the future. Ultimately as parents you want sucessful children, and as taxpayers you want children well educated to support your future pension though paying high levels of tax.

Therefore ultimately we want the same thing.

However in my experience any future successful adult needs to be well rounded, pure academics will not cut in any/(many) walks of life.

Money is not the principle reason I ski with my children in term time, there are a number of factors.

You know it makes sense.

It's an ill thought out scheme which was designed to tackle truancy. Sadly the people who get caught out now are families who care enough to want to spend time affordable to them on a family holiday. If you take them out 3 days or less it'll be ok but anymore just factor the fine in your budget.
We have been fined and due to work commitments I am not prepared to forfit our family holiday. The sad thing is before this scheme we made considerable effort to ensure the kids caught up on any work missed in order to reduce any disruption but now we are not allowed to do this as the school would be seen to condone it. My kids are still in primary school and I resent the implication that I would do anything to harm their education and I think the 10 day rule that used to be in place allowed for this and it allowed the parents and schools to work together in the best possible way for each individual case. Life's short and family time is paramount and it's time that it's encouraged within sensible limitations, however I fear that it has now become a huge source of revenue which to my disgust doesn't even go to the school. It's time the government used their brains on this matter and that the policy was transparent to everybody throughout the country instead of being different in each district. Evil or Very Mad

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A few schools near us, when they go away on the school ski trip , use a few term days included in the time away , doesn't stop them .And I don't think they would fine the parwents who paid to send their children on what is classed as an educated trip

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A snowHead

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There is always going to be difference of opinion on this subject. There is no need for it to be expensive to issue and collect a fine if the school did it and actually got the fines I think most people would just pay it. My point is that it was put in place to reduce truancy and that hasn't happened, yes attendance looks better but you can bet your bottom dollar sickness has risen ten fold so it's just manipulating figures and totally missing the point.
As a responsible parent who's kids attendance is very good (above 90percent) I resent being dictated to and made to feel that despite working our backsides off all year we can't take the kids out of school for a few days. I'm not an idiot and believe me if I thought they were struggling or it was detrimental to their education I wouldn't do it for a second but that as a parent should be my choice. If attendance is poor then yes it should be monitored but there are plenty of irresponsible parents who call in sick at the drop of a hat and who's kids attendance is poor and yet that just goes under the radar. I'm proud of the fact that I choose to give my kids some valuable family holidays.

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@summerseat, You might be interested to know that an attendance figure of 90% is classed as 'poor.' 90% attendance means that the child is missing approximately four weeks of schooling every year. That's a lot. To be fair, you did say your children were better than 90%. 'Satisfactory' is 95% or higher.

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If its a lot cheaper to pay fine and take them out of school , its simple....do it , they are your children and ultimately your choice ........

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@winterfunman, OK to apply the same principles to other rules we don't like in life ?

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Ultimately ? yes its your life , live it .

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