@sarah, I saw that too and liked it. Thanks for posting.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Yes, it is good. Comes from the perspective of blending skills to achieve what you want given the conditions.
That said, from what I see, learning one single piece of technique is the draw bridge that gets you off the intermediate plateau - upper / lower body separation to allow powerful edge control. People who get that can progress. People who can't will never be advanced skiers.
The spirit and thrust of the article is good but I think you probably have to get people to a certain level with closed techniques before you liberate them to be " open". Plus "open" is much more a mindset or philosophy than it is something tangible.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
So it's basically understanding how skis and skiing works? I can understand how it should work. Just can't do it!
After all it is free
After all it is free
It is an excellent perspective...and I wish that when instructors are dealing with beginners and intermediates they actually explain to their clients that different techniques have to be applied in different conditions. I for one have on occasion felt somewhat perplexed and frustrated by apparently being taught "must do" techniques, only to later be told effectively to "unlearn" them. It isn't that the clients should not be told about a certain way to ski, but if something comes across as the Holy Grail to a novice, it becomes far harder to understand how to adapt.
Like to think that I am now "open"--or at least trying to be!
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It doesn't seem to be much more than an advert to me, what is there that anyone could take from that, apart from snoworks having come up with a nice way of marketing how to ski off piste?
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@jimmer, you're no doubt right, but many people have made good livings out of showing the "ordinary" amongst us how to achieve things that the best have worked out for themselves. I don't mean that to be derogatory - I think it's a good way to earn your living (and even the likes of Phil Smith are not going to get as richly rewarded for it as a young bond trader).
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@Perty, absolutely agreed. Until I started taking lessons again about six years ago, I honestly thought - on the basis of old skool lessons in my 20s - that there was only one way to ski.
@Dave of the Marmottes, also agreed. Before you can use all the tools in the box, you've got to learn what the tools can actually do.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
pam w wrote:
@jimmer, you're no doubt right, but many people have made good livings out of showing the "ordinary" amongst us how to achieve things that the best have worked out for themselves. I don't mean that to be derogatory - I think it's a good way to earn your living (and even the likes of Phil Smith are not going to get as richly rewarded for it as a young bond trader).
Oh of course, I am not against them marketing themselves, they clearly do a good job, but I would respect the article a lot more if they went into more detail about these 'open skills' rather than just alluding to what you might learn if you stop being a 'victim' and pay for lessons with them.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Quote:
Some of the 'open' skills that you can learn include: Edge control, Pressure control, Rotary control, Controlling speed, Controlling your line, Balancing, Concentrating and Decision- making.
Whilst I like the gist of the article the above skills to learn seem a bit wishy washy to me. "Controlling speed"? Concentrating? Also edge, pressure and rotary control seem to all stem from "closed" skiing skills to me. The changes to be made from skiing a motorway piste to steeps, bumps, crud, powder, ice and slush to me are just an advancement and adjustment to these fundamentals.
I agree there is a mindset change to become "open" but I'm not convinced you need a ski instructor to make that change. You a hear a lot of people say I don't like skiing bumps/slush/steeps/powder when what they mean they haven't developed their technique or practiced enough to get to the enjoyment stage. And of course if you avoid it because you don't like it (sic) then it's self fulfilling prophecy.
Just my 2p.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
This article on "core concepts" goes into detail on some of the skills mentioned...
indeed taking a cynical view one might say "open" skiing is when you dispense with the security blanket of an instructor in order to operate autonomously.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@Dave of the Marmottes, my experience is that good instructors themselves tell me just to 'switch off' and ski (from time to time within lessons, and certainly when skiing recreationally.) All of skimottaret, rob@rar and Diverskify have done that. The latter recently told me I adapted well to varied/changing conditions around Lac du Lou and I was ridiculously proud of myself.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@Layne, fair points
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Quote:
alluding to what you might learn if you stop being a 'victim' and pay for lessons with them.
Actually, I did once pay for a Phil smith video and it was fairly hopeless. Lots of nice pics of Phil doing nice skiing to some nice music (displaying the need for different techniques) . SFA on how to get there - very little about how to get from a lower level to the level being demonstrated.
Everyone I've met who has had lessons with PS says he is very good - but I didn't find the video much help. Rick Schnellman's much less zippy videos, minus banging soundtrack etc, are far more useful.
I have also done a course in Phil Smith's school - though it wasn't with him it was with the chap then heading up BASS Morzine (or Avoriaz - I forget, it was a long time ago) who was excellent though he did confess to sometimes breaking PS's rules of instruction which were very prescriptive and must have been irksome to a highly qualified and experienced professional.
I think a 'closed' environment is as big a barrier as a 'closed' sport teaching methodology.
Typically a student new to the the sport is taught and practices on low angle groomed terrain, and as skills, ability and confidence increase progresses to steeper and steeper groomed terrain. Once they are safe and comfortable on black graded pisted terrain then they're introduced to all mountain, all conditions terrain - e.g. crud, powder, bumps, trees.
I firmly believe that if a student is introduced to all mountain, all conditions terrain as early as is safe and possible on slope pitches they are already familiar with then the 'mystique' of skiing crud, powder, bumps and trees is demystified.
It just becomes an adaptation of what they're already learned and are continuing to learn.
Critically not performing the same turn shape all the way down the run, but adapting the turn shape and tempo of foot steering relative to the terrain undulations and changing snow conditions.
For example, my student (girlfriend) Nerys was taught the fundamentals of stance & balance, pivotting, edging, pressure control from the start but in a way that always took the terrain and conditions into consideration.
The following video clips will hopefully illustrate this
@Mike Pow, couldn't agree more. I was fortunate enough to start skiing with a friend who already had some experience and had an open mindset. We would ski "anything" and we would talk technique, practice skills. That was on top of what I was learning in ski school those first couple of weeks.
@Layne, i think whilst the article was pitched at the skier, there was an underlying 'pitch' which intimated that they teach an open approach as opposed to a prescribed 'bend the knees', 'shoulders down the valley', 'feet shoulder width' method.
Effective all mountain skiing is a blend of various techniques, appropriate application of those techniques and an understanding of the hill to allow the former to be linked to the latter.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@Mike Pow, I began to learn in Scotland in the (gulp) 70s. You are so right. We had no option but to start learning on everything, especially up Glencoe. I am convinced it makes a difference.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Quote:
I firmly believe that if a student is introduced to all mountain, all conditions terrain as early as is safe and possible on slope pitches they are already familiar with then the 'mystique' of skiing crud, powder, bumps and trees is demystified.
@Mike Pow,
I agree. Best example of this for me has been watching my kids. Both I and their instructor have had them playing in all sorts of conditions from a very early stage and they just take it all in their stride. One time this season we skied a south facing black run in the morning. It was refrozen slushy bumps - utter choss. They just picked their way down it with no moaning, drama or falls - it's just skiing to them.
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jedster wrote:
It was refrozen slushy bumps - utter choss. They just picked their way down it with no moaning, drama or falls - it's just skiing to them.
It's just a problem solving exercise, using a blend of techniques & tactics to find a solution to getting down safe (and\or fast!).
I see a lot of focus on pure technique \ skills but less on how the client might apply them to solve the problem at hand. I think this is what Phil Smith is getting at, making the job more outcome focused than input (do this, feel that) focused.
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Charlotte Swift often takes her beginners "off piste" in their first few days.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Sounds like the ESF approach, at least with younger skiers the second they've got parallel turns they are taking students off piste, through the trees, into the park etc.
I would suggest that the big barrier to many intermediate skiers improving is fitness and lack of time on snow.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
davidof wrote:
I would suggest that the big barrier to many intermediate skiers improving is fitness and lack of time on snow.
Agreed.
Plus the fear of failing, falling and looking like a fool. The ego. Not egotistcal.
With the traditional 'closed' sport methodology of instruction most skiers venturing into all mountain, all conditions terrain will have gained a good level of competency on pisted runs often to black gradient difficulty through skill acquisition, a 'go to' turn shape & radius, fitness and physical strength.
When they're exposed to unconsolidated snow on uneven terrain this prescriptive & physical style of skiing - often edge heavy - is not appropriate and results in awkwardness, fatigue and falling. Feelings they may not have experienced in many days / weeks / holidays on snow.
This is a massive blow to the ego and confidence and turns what has become a fun activity into an ordeal.
Children, especially young children, who have the fortune (in more senses that one!) to start skiing at an early age don't get bent out of shape about failing & falling.
It wasn't that long ago for them that they were failing and falling learning to walk, run, ride a bike, and it's in their recent memory and something they accept as part of getting more proficient in an activity.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Good article.
It is basically the same as saying that you need to develop the underlying skills to get better.
In skiing these are (as defined by BASI) edge, pressure, rotary control.
This same philosophy actually applies to *any* sport ?
In football it would be improving skills like ball control, dribbling, passing or shooting <etc> ?
Though for a completely closed sport, like javelin, the underlying movements are repetitive.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Not sure if I agree with him that football and tennis are "open" sports. There are lot of non-variables. The size of the pitch/court, surface(s), goal/net size, etc. Sailing I can see.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Quote:
Plus the fear of failing, falling and looking like a fool.
Even though I only skied for the first time at the age of 25 I behaved like a child. The first day I must have fallen over 100+ times no exaggeration. It was April and I was very wet by the end of the day! Second day I fell over about 50 times and by day 6/7 it was 5-10 times. I loved it and didn't give a monkeys about falling. I've known people since that, even whilst learning, seemed to hardly ever fall over. Maybe I am imagining it but they seem to progress much more slowly.
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Poster: A snowHead
davidof wrote:
I would suggest that the big barrier to many intermediate skiers improving is fitness and lack of time on snow.
I totally agree. Add in too much beer and a few shots, plus late nights and it's little wonder progress is slow.
For me what PS is saying which is so important is skiing (like life) is about adapting to conditions. Making changes to your skiing according to the snow you actually have, varying tactics when the weather changes or there are lots of people around. You do need to have the clubs in the bag though.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
^ Yip : most punters view skiing as a winter holiday activity rather than a sport.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Layne wrote:
Not sure if I agree with him that football and tennis are "open" sports. There are lot of non-variables. The size of the pitch/court, surface(s), goal/net size, etc. Sailing I can see.
Very simplistically
Golf = closed, the ball doesn't move until you hit it.
Football and Tennis = open, your opponent moves the ball, the ball is in motion.
I would suggest that the big barrier to many intermediate skiers improving is fitness and lack of time on snow.
To a point yes although I skied with people who had worked multiple seasons without really leaving the plateau behind.
I would say that a big of barrier is a lack of CONSCIOUS practice - you can ski a lot but if you are not working on things, experimenting, seeing what works and doing it more, cutting out bad habits, asking yourself why those turns felt so good and these other ones didn't and plenty of skiing won't improve you much.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
jedster wrote:
Quote:
I would suggest that the big barrier to many intermediate skiers improving is fitness and lack of time on snow.
To a point yes ... I would say that a big of barrier is a lack of CONSCIOUS practice ...
My money is with davidof. The original premise was based on a list of things that the skier is said to be finding a challenge ...
- I'm ok providing it doesn't get icy.
- I can ski powder but when it begins to get varied I struggle.
- I'm ok providing it doesn't get steep.
- Other skiers put me off, I need open slopes.
- I end up skiing too fast and lose control.
- I'm ok providing the bumps are nicely spread out.
- I struggle in bad visibility.
- I struggle in slush.
- I struggle on narrow paths.
- Trees put me off.
... and without the fitness to (ineptly) do battle with their fears to start off with, they're going to find it much harder putting in the hours 'consciously practising' to make it easier.
Not sure if I agree with him that football and tennis are "open" sports. There are lot of non-variables. The size of the pitch/court, surface(s), goal/net size, etc. Sailing I can see.
Very simplistically
Golf = closed, the ball doesn't move until you hit it.
Football and Tennis = open, your opponent moves the ball, the ball is in motion.
Phil Smith says "'Closed' sports are where the environment does not change such as running in lanes, swimming in lanes, javelin throwing, discuss and hammer." My bold.
All the stuff he talked about in skiing that people struggle with were steeps, slush, bumps, powder are changes to your court/pitch which you don't get in football or tennis.
As he points out skiing starts out in an "closed" environment (and indeed can continue in one if you wish) and only goes to an "open" environment if and when you allow yourself to go into the changed environment. But in football and tennis the environment is largely static and you can not step out of it. In comparison with repetitive movement like swimming sure they do have a bit more variation and are a bit more "open". I am just not entirely sold on the "closed" and "open" concept/split. Equally I guess all that matters is it gets across the reason some become locked in to a certain level.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
I would argue golf is an open sport ?
No shot is ever exactly the same (wind, slope aspect, distance to pin being variable).
I actually think the concept of open and closed sports confuses things a little ?
The real message is that when improving performance in any sport you need to strip down and practice the basic skills (rather than learn exact movements).
After all it is free
After all it is free
So playing along with this open/closed dichotomy, at what point does a groomed run that is getting bumpier become an open environment?
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jimmer wrote:
So playing along with this open/closed dichotomy, at what point does a groomed run that is getting bumpier become an open environment?
At the point people start bitching about it being too cut up, slushy, bumpy,scraped etc?
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davidof wrote:
I would suggest that the big barrier to many intermediate skiers improving is fitness and lack of time on snow.
Absolutely. As a beginner I found that on my trip to VT in Janaury I really struggled on the icy patches of piste. I put most of this down to a lack of fitness, because my legs were so uncomfortable that I was struggling to go very far without having to stop for a rest....although I also suspect that one of the other reasons for my muscles aching so much was down to poor technique. It doesn't help that I tend to ski quite a punishing day for a beginner, spending most of the day on the mountain.
Layne wrote:
All the stuff he talked about in skiing that people struggle with were steeps, slush, bumps, powder are changes to your court/pitch which you don't get in football or tennis.
You clearly haven't watched any lower league football recently if you think that a football pitch doesn't change, not just from ground to ground or game to game but over the course of a match. I see you're point that there is no equivalent to off-piste, but the terrain can change quite heavily from game to game depending on whether, the pitch being used for other sports/concerts and the work done by groundstaff.
Most sports will have some element of openness, javelin etc. can be affected by weather, motorsport can be affected by temperature and even different swimming pools can apparently be slightly different. All this can alter the way that athletes have to approach them.
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