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BASI sued for £500 000

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
TTT was not overly worried about their country of posting being identified, it was more a concern that other parties might do further investigations (not work related) I had a couple of very pleasant not at all angry PM's from them their final paragraph to me started "Anywhere all water under bridge as suitably vague last I looked and will soon be yesterday's chip paper. " So as you can see no worries from them, they stopped posting for another reason which I won't mention
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@AndAnotherThing.., thanks thats really helpful.
Quote:

I'm concerned that UK citizens who are qualified via HNGB's (SSE, SSW etc.) or internationally (say Canadian, NZ etc. ) or a mix of the above will be disadvantaged in Europe if the only recognised game in town is a BASI qualification.

Good point. Within BASI membership there is talk that only one qualification (the highest) will eventually be recognised. If this is the case, many within Basi will share your concern, and wonder what happened.
Quote:

people are starting to recognise that the provision of Instructor Qualifications and licensing is a market in of it's self and there is more than one provider

Yes all the more reason to get this across to the BIS people now.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Is there anything happening with this, or are we awaiting court dates etc.? Anyone know?
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I think everyone's on holiday @billy not a boy, what are the next expected court dates? i thought it was all suspended until the court of administration had decided on a ruling.
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Isn't that the French case which is suspended until the administrative court has sat? This suing of the BASI for half of one million is in the Scottish courts. I thought that there was maybe something due this month, but I could have that wrong.
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@billy not a boy, I think next month.
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BASI renewal notice received yesterday, Subs up by over 8% and course fees increased by up to 20%! Also a plea/offer to pay before July (normally payment in october). someone preparing for a big payout? wink
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@gilo, I think you'll find that Simon Butlers legal case against BASI won't be the last, I think you'll find that his team of instructors have a very good case against BASI.
In particular Mark Gibbs & Alex Casey. I think the whole association needs to brace themselves for some very big payouts plus huge increaces to the membership fees and course fees too.
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Well In your opinion "Teacher" there may be a good case by Butler and his staff against us general members. I don't think there will be much goodwill from the general membership to these people if we have been toeing the line and not working in France, and nevertheless find ourselves being sued by some under-qualified freelancers who have been quite selfishly brassing their case and teaching without the proper quals and in the process disrespecting me and my colleagues. They'll understand when nobody wants to ski with them or buy them a drink after skiing, I'm sure.
Maybe they should form a "Nobby No Mates" ski school.
BASI members who sue their BASI colleagues should consider their options seriously.
On the other hand - maybe in their self-interest, they are actually doing us all a favour. Not.
As I understand it, these people are using me, my friends, my colleagues, the many thousands of BASI members including the BASI board, and I take a dim view of it. When I can be bothered to spend any time thinking about it.. If I ever meet these people, I'll be polite and friendly, but I disagree with them. If they sue their colleagues, should they remain colleagues? I'd suggest they should "go forth and multiply", and not as BASI members.

As for the fees increase - that's life. Professional fees are tax deductible. If you can't afford the professional fees, there is an option to leave and save some money.
Ski teaching is a career. Skiing is a difficult sport.
A skier of two weeks experience can teach someone of 1 day's experience and it can work for the client. They know nothing. How would they know what was good teaching? The person being taught has no idea, and will think the experience is wonderful if the 'teacher' is nice to them and the experience is positive. That is miles off being a qualified ski teacher. A high-level ski teacher knows what is to come in the development, and teaches to the progression.
The self-styled "Teacher" username says (above) " I think you'll find that his (Butler's) team of instructors have a very good case against BASI. "
I think he'll find he's up against it very quickly for him and his "team". I for one will put up good money to see him and his legal action off.
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SkiPresto wrote:

I think he'll find he's up against it very quickly for him and his "team". I for one will put up good money to see him and his legal action off.


I think you'll find you already are putting up good money because your leadership decided to jump the gun on seeing him off against all proper all reasonable process and seems yet to be able to explain " errors" in the issue of MoU.
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SkiPresto wrote:
A skier of two weeks experience can teach someone of 1 day's experience and it can work for the client. They know nothing. How would they know what was good teaching? The person being taught has no idea, and will think the experience is wonderful if the 'teacher' is nice to them and the experience is positive. That is miles off being a qualified ski teacher. A high-level ski teacher knows what is to come in the development, and teaches to the progression..


Simon Butler was employing skiers with two weeks ski experience as instructors? The scoundrel. Clearly doesn't have a leg to stand on.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
SkiPresto wrote:
I for one will put up good money to see him and his legal action off.

I'd have thought it better to spend your money promoting the benefits of your own service to prospective customers. Then again, since you don't respect them enough to credit them with an understanding of their own wants, maybe not.
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SB was at Braehead at the weekend coaching his daughter. She manged 3rd on Saturday and 2nd on Sunday in the U10 races.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@dogwatch, You couldn't be far from the truth about Simon Butler employing instructors with only two weeks experience, i know most of the team and i'll think you'll find that they have a hell of a lot to offer, Alex Casey who has retired from ski instruction worked for Simon for 14 years, M Gibbs 10 years, and the list goes on, if these instructors were so bad answer me this, how come Simon managed to build such a huge client base? because of great ski instructors that all of his clients loved. remember if you read Simon's website he managed a 92% return rate of clients, THATS HUGE, can any other company say the same, NO.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@Teacher, I took it that @dogwatch was being sarcastic at @SkiPresto's expense!
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@Teacher, I think dogwatch was being sarcastic.
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Snap!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Smile
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@SkiPresto, I CAN NOT BELIEVE YOU WROTE THIS -I don't think there will be much goodwill from the general membership to these people if we have been toeing the line and not working in France.
Let me give you an insight to all this, what you have been doing in "Toeing the line" is in fact believing the lies that BASI have been dishing out for years, BASI now know that the information that they have been telling the membership is on fact wrong, and believe me they are shitting themselves because when they finally tell the membership that indeed they were wrong, what will happen after that?
The membership will goes crazy, how many people have lost out on great careers because they never managed to pass the test? they have a case.
How many people seriously injured themselves whilst training for the euro test and lost earnings because of that? they have a case because they were told that they had to pass the euro test to work in FRANCE, which is a lie.
How many great ski instructors gave up skiing teaching because they felt that they were too old to take the euro test? they all have a case.
And just so you know i am one of those people that believed all the lies from BASI and went through the system, got injured a couple of times, had to miss a season here and there because of this.
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Teacher wrote:

How many people seriously injured themselves whilst training for the euro test and lost earnings because of that?


- A friend of mine broke his back and has never skied since
- Another friend ended up in the netting and dislocated his hip. It wasn't much fun supporting him whilst his skis were removed & the netting cut to get him out.

Torn ACL's, Bust knees, broken legs/arms are just run of the mill injuries whilst training for the ET.
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@stewart woodward, So when BASI announce that they fed their members wrong information regards qualifications to work in France all these people have a case against BASI.
Anybody else know of any people hurt during training or doing the actual test? remember the eurotest is all about safety.
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@SkiPresto, I think you missed my winky emoticon..... Relax, toe the line. It'll all be okay. Just keep beleiving the board line that you must have the boards product, trained by the boards private interests. It's for your own safety.
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Teacher wrote:
@dogwatch, You couldn't be far from the truth about Simon Butler employing instructors with only two weeks experience, i know most of the team and i'll think you'll find that they have a hell of a lot to offer, Alex Casey who has retired from ski instruction worked for Simon for 14 years, M Gibbs 10 years, and the list goes on, if these instructors were so bad answer me this, how come Simon managed to build such a huge client base? because of great ski instructors that all of his clients loved. remember if you read Simon's website he managed a 92% return rate of clients, THATS HUGE, can any other company say the same, NO.


banter
ˈbantə/
noun
noun: banter

1.
the playful and friendly exchange of teasing remarks.
"there was much good-natured banter"
synonyms: repartee, raillery, ripostes, sallies, swordplay, quips, wisecracks, crosstalk, wordplay; More
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This emoticon is brilliant wink because in space no one can hear you smirk
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Dogwatch's posts are and will remain an emoticon-free zone. I like words.
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I think @SkiPresto has taken over the stupid post mantle from TTT
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SkiPresto wrote:
Well In your opinion "Teacher" there may be a good case by Butler and his staff against us general members. I don't think there will be much goodwill from the general membership to these people if we have been toeing the line and not working in France, and nevertheless find ourselves being sued by some under-qualified freelancers who have been quite selfishly brassing their case and teaching without the proper quals and in the process disrespecting me and my colleagues. They'll understand when nobody wants to ski with them or buy them a drink after skiing, I'm sure.
Maybe they should form a "Nobby No Mates" ski school.
BASI members who sue their BASI colleagues should consider their options seriously.
On the other hand - maybe in their self-interest, they are actually doing us all a favour. Not.
As I understand it, these people are using me, my friends, my colleagues, the many thousands of BASI members including the BASI board, and I take a dim view of it. When I can be bothered to spend any time thinking about it.. If I ever meet these people, I'll be polite and friendly, but I disagree with them. If they sue their colleagues, should they remain colleagues? I'd suggest they should "go forth and multiply", and not as BASI members.



Worth remembering a few things.

1) It's still going through the courts.
2) Quals, declarations etc. are currently being examined. A French judge with legal opinion could not conclude anything. How did BASI come to their decision?
3) BASI could be wrong.
4) SB is suing BASI, the association, not members. The members were not asked for an opinion. Someone took that decision on our behalf and now we, the rank and file members, may have to live with the runious outcome.
5) Many members agree that a challenge is there to be made.
6) BASI need to stand on their own two feet and seek independent advice.
7) The situation needs clarified once and for all.
8 ) Any finding will be retrospective - could SBS and instructors have been right all along?

Your view is very much aligned with BASI management which is unfortunate. It could potentially lead the association to the edge of the cliff.

Likewise, BASI management will receive little goodwill from members if it turns out that they have been in error and not completed their own due diligence. I will reserve my opinion until the French court has completed the review it has asked for.

The stakes are very high for both sides and to take a blinkered stance on one side or the other would be foolish at this stage.
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stewart woodward wrote:
I think @SkiPresto has taken over the stupid post mantle from TTT


The same opinion and conclusion that BASI reached. The legal aspect of this is not complete and people are making decisions on an unknown outcome. As a BASI member it concerns me that that is seen as a normal approach to dealing with legal matters.

Wait till it's out of court. Making a judgement when the French legal system can't is beyond me.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Blind faith in leadership and swallowing leadership's propaganda/secret "legal" advice (whether formally published or gossiped about in bars) is not unknown in organisations particularly among those that derive status or favour from their association with leadership. Both TT's approach ("look I know considerably more about this than any of you and trust me BASI leadership are totally in the right") and SkiPresto's ("hush it down let's do this in our private setting because we're all mates together right"/"that SB is an awkward cove or a bounder because true BASI members wouldn't rock the boat") smack of some of this leadership idolatry.


One thing is for certain, those that made a tactical decision to kick out SB at zero notice in order to avoid a fuss and distraction may have slightly missed their objectives.
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I love rumours because facts can be so miss leading, it seems that Simon Butlers case has led people to do their own investigation into qualifications to work in France.
More cases to come against BASI and not from the Simon Butler Skiing camp this time.
Maybe the BASI lies are coming home to roost after all.
I feel a very expensive year for BASI and it's Members.
100% time for the BASI board to go now.
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Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
... may have slightly missed their objectives.
Indeed: it's hardly been brushed under the carpet.


To an outsider, it seems like overconfidence.

A strange deal was made. It looks like it may be an attempt to restrict employment. It disadvantaged some members whilst appearing to give commercial advantage to those making it. Defending that deal threatens the organisation itself.

A smart leader may well have asked the membership to approve that before doing it. Irrespective of the final outcome, what were they thinking?
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philwig wrote:
A strange deal was made. It looks like it may be an attempt to restrict employment. It disadvantaged some members whilst appearing to give commercial advantage to those making it. Defending that deal threatens the organisation itself.

A smart leader may well have asked the membership to approve that before doing it. Irrespective of the final outcome, what were they thinking?


I think your third sentence says what they were thinking.... wink
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
There's a lot of talk on here about SBs court case being potentially "ruinous" for BASI and its members, surely to goodness BASI has insurance to cover legal liabilities! If it doesnt then it deserves all it gets, no professional association should be operating without adequate liability insurance.
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@FFIRMIN, I suspect the more ruinous aspect would be people not needing to complete thousands of pounds on BASI courses if the SB case were to set a precedent
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@SkiPresto,

So you have very little regard for BASI L1 through L3 "YOUR COLLEAGUES" ?

SB has a right to fight for his rights as an instructor just because you do not agree with him does not diminish those rights or those of any other instructor to fight for their rights. You are entitled to an opinion but not to say what you did in your post. This whole issue is down to the BASI board they are a disgrace and have acted very unprofessionally the only question left is how many times and how severe the punishment they should receive.

I do not believe SB is intentionally suing every single member of BASI, but he has a right to fight a perceived injustice, if that affects the membership I would love to see those members able to sue the board themselves as it is them and them alone who should have to pay for their mistakes and perceived discrimination.


I do not believe all BASI instructors should be able to teach anywhere but BASI L3 should be able to teach more freely in France ( as we are discussing France ). L2 should have more scope but still limited and under supervision ie in a ski school. Basi L1 should not be able to unless as part of a training coarse towards BASI L2.

If BASI had pushed for something similar to this and been fighting for ALL their PAYING members from the start none of this with SB may well have happened so @SkiPresto, think before you blame one side over the other both have acted inappropriately at various stages, but the BASI board should act more responsibly and with far more diligence to Law.
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speed098 wrote:
I do not believe all BASI instructors should be able to teach anywhere but BASI L3 should be able to teach more freely in France ( as we are discussing France ). L2 should have more scope but still limited and under supervision ie in a ski school. Basi L1 should not be able to unless as part of a training coarse towards BASI L2.


As part of the European negotiations, the BASI qualification system was cited in a European Directory of Training document. Dave Renouf is noted as a member of its Experts Committee and the report author was Arnaud Pinguet of ENSA Chamonix.

On page 11 the says of the BASI system:

Quote:
Professional title
Alpine level 1 Instructor: work within the UK in a controlled environment (Dryslopes & Indoor Snow Centres only) instructing first day novices to parallel skiers.

Alpine level 2instructor: work within pisted and patrolled runs in mountain ski areas / centres throughout the world

Alpine level 3 ISIA: teach up to parallel skiing and beyond; this includes techniques and tactics for bumps, steeper terrain, higher speeds, and variable conditions within marked pistes and off pistes on marked routes

Alpine level 4 ISTD: teach skiers of any level and on any terrain, on and offpiste, apart from on glacier terrain.


The report is\was in the public domain, search for xg-ets22-froidville-sk-ireland-2013.pdf - see page 11.


With regard to Level 2. that fit's with the fact that the 'old' BASI 3s' (Current L2's) were issued with a licence that confirmed that they were qualified as an "Alpine Ski Instructor" before it was changed to just "Level 2".

It's bemused me for a while that the organisation seems to make no effort to address the commentary that undermines the status own 'lower' qualifications.
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@AndAnotherThing..,

I was not sure if documentation was still around but did see something similar to what you have quoted. I just think BASI as a body need to stand up more publicly and fight for BASI L2 and L3. After all to not do so to me undermines the professionalism of the qualification.
I know if I had ever only been a punter skier I would question, is BASI ( below L4 ) a good enough qualification to instruct me ? They seem to have little regard for their own qualifications until the instructor reaches L4. Now maybe I am the only one who thinks that way if so fine, if not then it is not good for the vast majority of BASI instructors who are not and for some may never be L4.

For me BASI need to promote the high std's of BASI throughout, not just at the top level. Most instructors especially because of the ET as it stands will never be able to reach L4. Many BASI L2 and above are excellent instructors more than capable of providing excellent instruction in a pleasant, fun and safe environment that encourages the pupil to return time and again.

For me that last statement should be what BASI stand for and promote to the alpine world " quality of instruction". Not how fast a skier the instructor is, or how good they are in gates that most punters will never ever be concerned with attempting. Why not base the ET on skiing bumps or off-piste after all more punters will encounter these two environments more frequently than gates.
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speed098 wrote:
I know if I had ever only been a punter skier I would question, is BASI ( below L4 ) a good enough qualification to instruct me ?


Good question. I've got good value from L3 and L4 instructors, less so from one L4, yet less from another L3. I think quite a lot comes down to personality matches and clashes and that's nothing to do with L3 and L4.
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Quote:

I know if I had ever only been a punter skier I would question, is BASI ( below L4 ) a good enough qualification to instruct me ?

I have only ever been a "punter skier" (oh the shame of it rolling eyes ) and I've never felt the need to question the quals of my instructor and (SWEEPING GENERALISATION ALERT) I bet the majority of mere punter skiers wouldn't consider it either. We punters book lessons through ski schools and trust that the people teaching us are fully qualified without question.

I understand the need for the ski instructor profession and those who make or want to make a living instructing, to have reassurance that the standard and quality of instructors is the best possible since to do so provides confidence within the profession (my own profession is similar as I'm sure are many other professions) that those practicing instructing are competent to do so but I would opine that the majority of so-called punter skiers don't particularly care.

Anyway, apologies for intruding. Carry on gents Laughing
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@halfhand,

Intrude all you want it is an open forum and healthy debate is good rolling eyes

No shame in only ever being a punter skier there will be many punter skiers who could put a lot of instructors to shame with their skiing ability. There is always someone better so all should be humble and respect the effort every skier has put into the sport who strives to improve, to be a better and safer skier.

You may well be right re punters ( I can only speak for myself as a long time since I was more than a punter skier and times do change ) but I think people are starting to question things more, to seek out better value for money etc. Now maybe this is not yet as prevalent when searching out a suitable instructor for most but that could change at any point.
I would just like to see BASI show a more professional and unified image which IMO they at present are not doing by not recognising the effort BASI L2 and L3 have had to put in to reach those levels not to mention the course fees training fees and subs.
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