 Poster: A snowHead
|
| TTT wrote: |
The position I express on here are the official views of basi and the french. It is SB and his supporters who are in the minority. I get plenty of private messages of support. They just don't want to engage in the debate. The recent vote of basi was clear. They voted for an ET opener to represent them. You need to be credible yourself if the other side are going to take you seriously. |
The recent vote of BASI? I'm sure it was the members who voted not BASI.
So what? I don't remember him playing the ET card? So how could he possibly have been voted in on an ET play? You might as well have said he was voted in as an Interski ambasador.
Turned down by BASI as a Trainer, again. Maybe he wanted the board position for other reasons.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
| TTT wrote: |
@speed098
I know plenty of tidy basi trained skiers who would just not be credible to the holiday skiers I ski with as they could not keep up with them. A speed test is credible and you can't blag gates with a dodgy out of balance technique. It is the level that you need to be at to be credible in an alpine country. It is the entry level in Italy. Whether you need it to teach someone to snow plough is a stretch but it was an ex racer who took me back to the nursery slopes who taught me how to ski properly after previously having tried lower level instructors. I have seen national teams start with some snow ploughs and they looked very good to me!
|
Was that a surprise to you? Being taken back to basics is a normal practice for any experienced instructor. It's hardly a ground breaking teaching method.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
Poleplant derogation. MOU. EU statement. As I say you have to read everything not isolated. ET is only for rights of establishment. You can still work for a regulated ski school with level 2 and TT.
It is not that I know stuff about SB that I suspect they don't but it is just that the connections are amusing. It is worrying if they know this stuff and it does not bother them though. The nature of the behaviour is that it can't be revealed on social media. The FB stuff is public for people to make their own mind up on at least until some of the comments and stories were deleted by admin.
Skison - basi is a members organisation so of course it was voted by members. it was on his cv. There is no active lower level movement. I don't know why if SB and his associates think they represent the majority they don't stand unless they realise despite all the noise they make there is a silent majority that is not bothered and do not like what they are doing.
Most instruction I've seen is taking people round on holiday with a few tips because that is what people want. The training from ex racers takes aspects from their race training and applies it to punters. I'm just saying that I've had great training from ex-racers and people who have done speed tests and speed test training. I don't use most of the specific knowledge from my professional exams but I use the concepts that I learnt from going through the training and passing the exams all the time. It takes a lot of skill, training and experience to be able to see the things that will most help someone at that moment in time in their development. That is why people going through the process themselves who realise their knowledge of skiing and instruction is very limited use full certs themselves. They want professional training because they realise it is better quality and value. These are the people that instructors themselves choose to use.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
Spot the contradictions and non-sequiturs in the last paragraph alone.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
@Hurtle, of course there are contradictions. The world is not so clear cut as some people would like to make out. There are various shades of opinion. This is primarily a brit holiday maker message board. The basi and French views are different to the SB camp which is why the french have convicted numerous times and why basi expelled him. Some people's views of the world are so narrow that they can not grasp that other people may have other experiences, cultures and views. I've always said they are more than one view, that the rules and what should happen in practice are not the same. The general consensus in the profession though is that level 3 is where it gets serious and that there is a place for a speed test in the system. There are indeed different views on the ET. It is not an amazingly high standard though. We are talking about the rights of establishment and the rights to work independently here. There is then a seperate debate about the system for working for ski schools. That is the next step. No one is suggesting the ET is necessary to wotk for a ski school other than the Italians. Sad when pointing out different facts and opinions causes such a frenzy.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
That's multi week per year, chalet owning,seasonaire, instructor, trainee instructor,.. Holiday punter board 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Edit and some with fis point and Olympic starts, but we'll call those a lucky minority.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
@TTT, I have no quarrel with your opinions, merely with the ridiculous - and therefore completely unconvincing - way in which you promulgate them.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| speed098 wrote: |
Never said they were not a good skier but just that someone who could be technically a much better skier and not as aggressive/fearless would keep failing the test yet someone who pushes beyond their ability because they are fearless and yes could crash out at the end could pass. The point is the test is not reflective of an instructors ability to teach beginners and even intermediates. I do as I have said numerous times concede that it is 100% relevant for race coaching and has a lot of value for teaching advanced skiers.
|
Leaving the instructor debate to one side I asked someone in the French system about your scenario. This is basically what he said
| Quote: |
| "Anyone with a bit of aptitude can pass the TT with the right training, you don't need to have a race background. The reason the pass rate is only 20-25% is because a lot of people turn up for the test with no preparation. The Eurotest is a real barrier though. It is purely a judge of technique, of how well you ski, obviously you need to ski fast, to "engage", but if your technique is good you will be able to do that. Yes a good skier but not perfect, with a fault here or there could scrape a pass but in the French system you have the "Technical Training" which removes those skiers, either before or after the ET. Another thing to remember is that quite a few instructors, principally those from the ski resorts, come from a race background so never have to take the ET so it is more a test for the valley folk to make sure they have the same standard." |
of course this raises the question that with the UF-Technique (technical training) why have the ET at all in the French system?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
@andy, don't see a lot of French or professional instructors on here though. It is those that hold the alternative view to SB that we are talking about.
@Hurtle, completely fair enough - I feel the same way about how many on here express their ridiculous and unconvincing views. If someone makes a fair point I accept it. The french and basi do not think their views are ridiculous and unconvincing unless of course you have such a narrow view of the world that you are in capable of grasping official points of view.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
ahahahahahahahahahahahahah
so all the BASI L2,L3,L4,ISTDs, with TT, ET, or going thru that race training stage right now... and full time instructors in Austria, on here, are not professional instructors?
and they'er not all SB disciples. Several non-SB disciples have posted on this very thread.
was going to say eliTTTist. now I'm thinking more deluded.
Sorry, I'm out!
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
As with all threads involving a certain person there's such a whiff of "I am considerably better than yow" that it's hard to concentrate on the issues. The Brit holiday punter comment is classic : some insecurity among your top level BASI muckers or "local" bigwigs that not everyone wants to worship at their altar?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Quote: |
The french and basi do not think their views are ridiculous and unconvincing unless of course you have such a narrow view of the world that you are in capable of grasping official points of view.
|
I don't profess to know what "the French and BASI" think, but venture to suggest that there could be a variety of 'thoughts' which you don't reflect in your arguments. Furthermore, I don't necessarily accept points of view just because they are 'official'. Call that a narrow view of the world if you will.
FWIW, I have received instruction from, inter alia, a French bumps champion and a BASI Level 2 instructor. I have learned just as much, in different ways, from each of them. But I am an ordinary punter. If I were an aspirant Level 4, I'd probably want someone who had gone through the Level 4 process teaching me. Hold the front page for that. And I'm also out.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
@TTT, I have heard many stories, too many to recall and many that have happened all over the Alps and beyond. They make good tales in bars, but I would not guarantee their authenticity.
You mention that you have spoken to people who previously took a holiday with SB, this I entirely believe due to the thousands of clients that the company has taught. I would also be unsurprised if you had not spoken to any BASI instructors who have either taken a vacation with them or even worked with SB on route to achieving their instructor qualifications.
I do note that more of the Megeve 6 have positive things to say about SB than those who do not. (I read FB, I post under my own name, very similar to this name)
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
| andy wrote: |
| Sorry, I'm out! |
| Hurtle wrote: |
| And I'm also out. |
And I. (Not that I was ever really "in".)
Can't remember which snowHead once had this as his sig. But it keeps popping into my head.
| Quote: |
| Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
@Dunk, he said good things about the product, particularly for newer skiers. Just that skiing had moved on and just some side aspects which were inappropriate or over the top. FB on this debate does tend to be the SB crowd talking amongst themselves with only the odd challenger. I think most others don't want to get involved and in light of the case can't get involved.
Sad that some people can't see that the French and BASI may also have a valid point of view even if it is not something they agree with and that their legal advice is different. We are not talking about elite pros racers here - we are talking about people who are career ski instructors or seeking to make a career. They like the career path in ski instructing that the French system gives them. They do have different views themselves. The French view it like other teaching qualifications. Not necessarily a bad thing. There training and qualification set up is similar to other professions in the UK and that is not illegal.
I appreciate it would be a lot easier to bash the French and BASI on here as it is a different audience.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| TTT wrote: |
| @Dunk, he said good things about the product, particularly for newer skiers. |
I'm sure that when @laundryman mentioned "cognitive bias" TTT said that she skied with more than just one of SB's previous customers.
Again, this post has nothing to do with SB, and nothing to do with being in one camp or the other, it is simply pulling apart TTT's trolling. She harps on about people not being open to an alternate interpretation and yet there she is all high and mighty, lol.
Indeed, she should remember her nah, na, na, nah, nahs.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| TTT wrote: |
Skison - basi is a members organisation so of course it was voted by members. it was on his cv. There is no active lower level movement. I don't know why if SB and his associates think they represent the majority they don't stand unless they realise despite all the noise they make there is a silent majority that is not bothered and do not like what they are doing.
|
There were other things on his CV. The ET was only part of it. The only way to really understand how the voting went would be for BASI to publish the levels of those voted for each person. So saying he got support because he has and supports the ET is speculation without the facts.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| TTT wrote: |
Skison - basi is a members organisation so of course it was voted by members. it was on his cv. There is no active lower level movement. I don't know why if SB and his associates think they represent the majority they don't stand unless they realise despite all the noise they make there is a silent majority that is not bothered and do not like what they are doing.
|
There were other things on his CV. The ET was only part of it. The only way to really understand how the voting went would be for BASI to publish the levels of those voted for each person. So saying he got support because he has and supports the ET is speculation without the facts.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| TTT wrote: |
Skison - basi is a members organisation so of course it was voted by members. it was on his cv. There is no active lower level movement. I don't know why if SB and his associates think they represent the majority they don't
Most instruction I've seen is taking people round on holiday with a few tips because that is what people want. The training from ex racers takes aspects from their race training and applies it to punters. I'm just saying that I've had great training from ex-racers and people who have done speed tests and speed test training. I don't use most of the specific knowledge from my professional exams but I use the concepts that I learnt from going through the training and passing the exams all the time. It takes a lot of skill, training and experience to be able to see the things that will most help someone at that moment in time in their development. That is why people going through the process themselves who realise their knowledge of skiing and instruction is very limited use full certs themselves. They want professional training because they realise it is better quality and value. These are the people that instructors themselves choose to use. |
I may be seeing your argument wrongly - define ex-racer. Are you talking national or HN levcel ex-racer or general ex-racer who may have competed at club level. There are only so many ex-racers at the top level. Going through my head of the current BASI trainers there are not that many around compared to the numbers on the trainers list. Few of the recent intakes are anything more than club racers. They are good, I've trained and worked with many of them but by your criteria they wouldn't be that good at instructing higher level clients? There are plenty who have raced but not beyond even HN level of competition.
There are other options for instructors still working through the levels. The racing strand is but one part of it. I wouldn't advise someone struggling in moguls to hitch up to a race camp.
An ex-racer has skills to pass on, an ex-moguls competitor has skills to pass on etc.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| skison wrote: |
| TTT wrote: |
The position I express on here are the official views of basi and the french. It is SB and his supporters who are in the minority. I get plenty of private messages of support. They just don't want to engage in the debate. The recent vote of basi was clear. They voted for an ET opener to represent them. You need to be credible yourself if the other side are going to take you seriously. |
The recent vote of BASI? I'm sure it was the members who voted not BASI. |
BASI = its members.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Gerry wrote: |
| skison wrote: |
| TTT wrote: |
The position I express on here are the official views of basi and the french. It is SB and his supporters who are in the minority. I get plenty of private messages of support. They just don't want to engage in the debate. The recent vote of basi was clear. They voted for an ET opener to represent them. You need to be credible yourself if the other side are going to take you seriously. |
The recent vote of BASI? I'm sure it was the members who voted not BASI. |
BASI = its members. |
What do you refer to the Association as - BASI?
What do you refer to the members as - BASI?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
@skison, yes, they're both BASI. Votes by members of an association of that sort are cast in accordance with its voting rules and the vote which eventually goes through becomes the collective vote of the association. Hope that helps.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
@skison, my point in my usual provocative manner is that I see the same few people making a lot of noise on FB but the majority of the minority who participate in these things did not vote for a lower level. I see no active ground swell of opinion pushing more employment rights for lower levels. Neither do I hear it. I suspect the views on the ET are mixed between for, against and don't care as has no relevance to me.
As mentioned previously I also use foreign instructors. They have trained with the gods but would not cllaim to be gods themselves. ET is a debatable one but I do think most people would benefit from the knowledge even if not doing racing. It is all skiing. Good skiing at that. Just a great experience to ski with and watch and learn from. Season highlight so far. Pity that more people for their own sake don't like going outside their comfort zone. Some of these ex racers just may know a thing or two about skiing.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
Of course, SB is a *current* racer, getting the odd podium position in FIS masters.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
Wonder if he would get his ET or least if an age allowance was introduced. Strange that he does that but would not do the ET. Would have thought it would have been a lot less hassle than all the legal stuff. And yes I do know his view is that he does not need to do it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
"In my usual provocative manner". The most trollish of troll comments yet.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
laundryman, The standard in Masters is a lot lower than Alpine FIS races.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
@rjs, sure, but quite a few ex top level racers take part I believe.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
No one else seems to have read the relevant documentation and I'm the troll?
Latest basi statement/EU statement - MOU requiring ET and EMS stands for another year. EU requirements for working for an approved training school will be looked at in the future. In other parts of the EU there is a greater emphasis on training and qualifications for everything.
No doubt if UK pulls out of EU there will be work permits and visas but don't think that criminal convictions will help not forgetting that only some of the convictions relate to ski instruction.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
| TTT wrote: |
No one else seems to have read the relevant documentation and I'm the troll?
Latest basi statement/EU statement - MOU requiring ET and EMS stands for another year. |
So they'll be pulling MoU from "old" BASI top levels grandfathered from needing ET?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| TTT wrote: |
| No one else seems to have read the relevant documentation and I'm the troll? |
"Reading documentation" doesn't get you off the hook. We only have to read page one of this thread to see what you're up to, matey. The remaining 14 pages of your peppered comments aren't really worth troubling oneself with ... because you've not disclosed your ID and seem to using anonymity to muddy the water all the time, rather than say anything worthwhile.
Remember that the headline of this thread is "BASI sued for £500 000". One can't enter the witness box of a court of law with a paper bag over one's head. It's about real identifiable people expressing truths under oath.
What you got?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
Can cut and paste the entire EU and UK legislation in each post/reply if you prefer
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
@David Goldsmith, it's not just anonymity, as in non-disclosure of his/her name, but non-disclosure of place of residence and occupation. I hazard a guess that he/she actually recognizes what a load of rubbish he/she has been posting and, realising that a lot of people on this forum have met/know each other well, is protecting himself/herself (oh, bollox, let's just assume this is a man or rely on the usual interpretation provisions of English law) against a potentially embarrassing meeting with someone who's been arguing against him. At least when you're posting under a pseudonym, everybody knows who you are, and I'm pretty sure you defend all your views in person as well as online; I would doubt that TTT strenuously defends his views in person, he merely listens to people without actually engaging in argument and then disseminates innuendo and pontificates about the law online. But of course I could be wrong about all of this.
PS I know I said I was 'out' but I meant out of arguing with the man himself. It's like arguing with a lump of jelly, just not worth the effort.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| TTT wrote: |
No one else seems to have read the relevant documentation and I'm the troll?
Latest basi statement/EU statement - MOU requiring ET and EMS stands for another year. |
So they'll be pulling MoU from "old" BASI top levels grandfathered from needing ET? |
I think this counts for most of the BASI trainers at the moment ... I can't be 100% on that though since there is no "list of trainers" available on the BASI web site.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Hurtle wrote: |
| .. I hazard a guess that he/she actually recognizes what a load of rubbish he/she has been posting and, realising that a lot of people on this forum have met/know each other well, is protecting himself/herself ...It's like arguing with a lump of jelly, just not worth the effort. |
Perhaps it'd would be more fun to "out" the troll; arguing with them is pointless - that's why the ignore button is there.
IP addresses don't seem to be available - perhaps that should be fixed, as it does seem to encourage rudeness.
The chances are someone has an idea. Maybe some correlation with other sources would help. Or may be there's some indicator in the account history.
--
As far as race trained instructors is concerned, that's a bit like getting Lewis Hamilton to teach you to drive - mostly a bad idea for quite a lot of reasons
But the issue is the closed market, not the tactics used to achieve it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Hurtle wrote: |
| It's like arguing with a lump of jelly, just not worth the effort. |
Hook a jelly up to an EEG machine and it will display signs of life ...
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| philwig wrote: |
| As far as race trained instructors is concerned, that's a bit like getting Lewis Hamilton to teach you to drive |
Not really. Why would having learned extra ski techniques turn someone into a bad instructor ?
Continuing with your analogy: Race drivers vary a lot, some are known to be good at developing a car, some less so. I would expect someone like Jensen Button to be quite good at teaching driving.
A counter analogy: Would you want to prevent schoolteachers from teaching a subject if they had a degree in it ?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
@TTT, you mean you're posting on snowHeads using your employer's resources? Or during your paid working time?
Or have I misinterpreted what you've just posted?
This forum maintains the highest ethical standards, as regards legitimate use of time/electricity/computers in private or authorised use ... as you know.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
, I wasn't referring to the Cham club. Who are pretty handy. As evidenced every season on the podia.
