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BASI sued for £500 000

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Levi215 wrote:
@Hurtle, you don't have to like a place to have a view / understand the place?


I think you're already aware that the point was that our troll has managed to contradict herself multiple times on the same page.

Still, there's no snow out there and DG is still in flounceo mode...
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@Levi215, I inferred that TTT doesn't visit France. If that's an inference too far, I apologise. But if s/he does visit France and its ski stations, why can s/he then not speak for it? I remain puzzled.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
I'm not sure how being able to see the official view of professional instructors in France and Basi makes someone a troll. It just sounds like some people are not capable of understanding another point of view or making an intelligent argument have to resort to throwing their toys out of the pram.

And who said anything about not liking France? Great place and people. I'm just not into the mass tourist package holiday package scene anywhere. If people don't read what someone actually says and are not open to another point of view then it will be difficult for them to understand that point of view.
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TTT wrote:
It just sounds like some people are not capable of understanding another point of view or making an intelligent argument have to resort to throwing their toys out of the pram ... If people don't read what someone actually says and are not open to another point of view then it will be difficult for them to understand that point of view.


Admittedly, I've not witnessed you throwing your toys around, but the rest most certainly appears true from your posts NehNeh


Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Sat 9-05-15 12:55; edited 1 time in total
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
As usual, that doesn't address the point. (I'm quite good at reading, btw.) Never mind.
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TTT wrote:
I'm not sure how being able to see the official view of professional instructors in France and Basi makes someone a troll.

It doesn't.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
It puzzle me that some people still can not grasp that there are:

2 sides to this story and

there is a difference between what the EU rules and regulations state and what some people think they state or should state.
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After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
It's also puzzling that some people think the rules are crystal clear when judges disagree on them.
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@laundryman, I most certainly don't think they are! Most laws and rules are inherently generic so not specific to a situation in this case skiing hence the derogation which allows the French to require the ET and the MOU and the proposed delegated act all of which only cover the top levels. If it was totally clear we would not have these debates.

Free movement of labour is a nice mantra but that is a gross over simplification of the reality and rules. It is free subject to having the education, qualifications and language skills. No one would from outside the UK would get a job in my work in the UK without an equivalent education, equivalent qualifications and fluent local language skills ie English. The EU have stated that the alpine countries are entitled to do the same thing with skiing.


Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Sat 9-05-15 14:52; edited 1 time in total
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@TTT, are you a Eurotroll, or do you carry the standard British qualifications only?
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TTT wrote:
[the MOU which allows the French to require the ET

The MOU doesn't allow the French to require anything. It's a convenient way of asserting one's credentials (when it's not arbitrarily withheld).

The derogation allows the French to require the ET: if, and only if, it can demonstrate a substantial difference in training, that has not been compensated for by experience, compared to a French person doing similar work; on a case-by-case basis. The French administration failed to demonstrate that in 2006, for anybody they arrested and charged.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@laundryman, agreed - I'm aware of what the derogation which is an adaption of the wording in the directive states. I think that race training and passing the ET constitutes a significant difference otherwise if they had similar training they would be able to pass. The compensation by experience is covered by the FIS points in the MOU which is the current agreed interpretation of the directive as I'm sure you are well aware but chose to conveniently ignore.
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Teacher wrote:
@TTT Does live in Chamonix, maybe they are more civilised over there, or they don't like to push women over.


TTT wrote:
I really can't comment on France. Not my bag for skiing.


Now I'm really puzzled. I'm pretty sure Chamonix is in France Puzzled
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@laundryman, good that you understand that the MOU is a 'convenient was of asserting your cedentials'. In a legal case I was involved in it was necessary to prove direct cause and that the loss was directly attributable - no ancillary related costs were allowed. If the MOU is only a convenient way of asserting your credentials as you assert then it is not cause of loss. Even if proven then you can only claim the direct losses ie his inability to work as an instructor in my case. If you believe what you assert and you have the interests of SB rather than your own self interests at heart then you should advise him to drop his case against basi.

The MOU is still though persuasive expert evidence as to the agreed interpretation of the directive, not least as this forms the basis for the proposed delegated act which if passed will mean even if SB wins case the position going forward will not change. The EU has clearly stated that the French and other alpine countries are entitled to regulate ski instruction under the directive whether people agree with or like that or not.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
TTT wrote:
@laundryman, agreed - I'm aware of what the derogation which is an adaption of the wording in the directive states. I think that race training and passing the ET constitutes a significant difference otherwise if they had similar training they would be able to pass. The compensation by experience is covered by the FIS points in the MOU which is the current agreed interpretation of the directive as I'm sure you are well aware but chose to conveniently ignore.



This is the issue your interpretation Have you actually considered that as the ET is the test you have to do if there is established by the French a significant difference and that the ET in itself is not to be considered a significant difference ?

As an example the French say someone has not got the experience because they have not got the ET. This person duly pays the fee to do the ET without any training and pass the test on the first run. This person would then have a legal claim for compensation from the French for forcing him/her to do something they already had the experience for. The French had not looked into this persons experience in a professional manner it could be argued by that person, and had not applied the EU rules correctly.

But the real point is the test you have to do if there is established by the French a significant difference can not and should not in any context be considered a significant difference in itself.

How do FIS points equate to the experience of an instructor teaching for 2-3-4- or even 10 years ? it does not. FIS points have zero relevance re teaching/instructing experience so are you trying to say that an instructor with 10yrs experience working full time for those ten years can not submit that as experience ?

This is the experience that the French have to consider, if they so wish to consider FIS points in addition then fine but they have to first look at the persons level of qualification if that is not upto the French equivalent then they have to look at experience as an instructor. Many BASI L3 would pass this experience test as the French would be unable to demonstrate a significant difference. They would not then be able to impose the ET. Some BASI L2 would also potentially pass this threshold, though I accept many would not and thus would have to take the ET to demonstrate, though they may not be highly trained instructors ( in context to BASI L3 and L4) they can ski fast, so obviously as they are so fast they can also teach.


Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Sun 10-05-15 13:51; edited 1 time in total
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 Poster: A snowHead
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^

Paragraph 1: the MoU is not important.

Paragraph 2: the MoU is important.

Forgive me for being confused.

AIUI, SB would not have been arrested and prevented from instructing (before appearing in court) if he could have produced an MoU. I don't think anyone who has produced an MoU during a control has been arrested. Now that SB's convictions have been overturned or suspended, I'd say things are looking pretty bleak for BASI. I'm sure the BASI board and executive would like SB's friends to advise him to drop the case though. Maybe the best (and moral) course for them would be to reinstate SB's MoU and offer a reasonable settlement, while waiting (with a neutral stance, if they can't bring themselves to support a member) for the final outcome of proceedings in France (or at EU level, if the case progresses there).


Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Sun 10-05-15 13:59; edited 1 time in total
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@speed098, I understand where you are coming from but you are wrong that it is my interpretation. It is the MOU and proposed delegated act interpretation. We both know that there is a substantial difference in the training between somone who was capable and not capable of passing the ET. The standard of skiing and training between someone who is capable of passing 2, 3 and 4 is substantially different.

May be I'm not as rubbish as I think that I am if I can see the massive difference that locals and professional instructors see between the levels. Recently a lower level instructor was kind enough to suggest that I was a good skier and higher level instructor. My trainer and I just gave each other a knowing look as we both know the reality. The judges will seek the views of experts not amateurs. I take my views from experts.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@laundryman, I think you are intelligent enough to understand but you are so blinded by your biases that you can not understand the difference between cause and persuasive evidence.
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Quote:

We both know that there is a substantial difference in the training between somone who was capable and not capable of passing the ET

Is 0.1s a substantial difference? 0.2? How much exactly?
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Read up on cognitive biases and then get get back to me. I have no skin in the game.

I either passed my professional exams or I did not. There was no I was nearly there.
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Let me introduce you to another concept that some people seem to be struggling to understand. There is a substantial difference between pass and fail. That is life. That is reality. If you think everything is fair in life you will be sadly disappointed.

You think that it is fair that SB makes a fortune at the expense of other by ignoring the rules that others abide by I don't. SB has been badly advised ny people who have their own selfish agendas.
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@TTT, you go on and on and on making points personal to Simon Butler ... but you don't reveal your ID.

I can't see any reason whatsoever for adopting anonymity. If you're telling the truth, put your name to it.
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After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
@TTT, If things are so bad at Simon Butler Skiing answer me this question if you please, why do the instructors working there stay for so long if he is the one making all the money at the expense of others, i think you'll find that they are very well paid plus accommodation, all food (Including lunch on the mountain), sounds like a god awful place to work to me.
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TTT wrote:
In a legal case I was involved in ... blah, blah, blah


Were you on the winning side?
Or was your involvement limited to shampooing the lawyers' wigs?
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David Goldsmith wrote:
TTT wrote:
In a legal case I was involved in ... blah, blah, blah


Were you on the winning side?
Or was your involvement limited to shampooing the lawyers' wigs?


Well, you'd know all about not being credible in court.

BTW, your 'expert' witness page is still up along with your address and list of laughable credentials.

You're in no position to critique others over legal matters, and it would be better for you if you just shut your face at this juncture.
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@David Goldsmith, yes I was on the winning side as I have been on all the legal cases I have advised on unlike the advisor that SB uses.

@BlubaBluba, so you are saying that SB's claim for losses is false then? - not that they can not be attributed to basi in any case as they had no involvement. How was SB travelling from CH to FR - helicopter? Not that travel expenses can be claimed in my experience as individual decision.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@TTT, remember the "substantial difference" in the legislation is about training (potentially compensated by experience), not about exam scores. But a fraction of a second here or there through gates is clearly not going to make a lot of difference to the average lesson to a tourist.

It's really pretty facile to go on about cognitive bias when you're losing an argument. Sure, we all have them, including you.
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Gerry wrote:

BTW, your 'expert' witness page is still up along with your address and list of laughable credentials.


It most certainly IS NOT. I have not offered these services for over 15 years.

As a director of the Ski Club of Great Britain - Gerry Aitken - you do yourself no favours by misrepresenting facts and trying to damage others.

It's high time you answered TEN QUESTIONS FOR GERRY AITKEN [they've been sitting there since 4 February] ...

http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=94856&start=3800#2673652

You know you need to.
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You know it makes sense.
@laundryman, are you seriously suggesting that doctors and nurses which the directive specifically mentions can work anywhere in Europe if they fail their exams? You really are desperate to protect your Brit isolated package holiday regardless of the consequences for SB aren't you. Your arguments are diversionary and fascile and you ignore and fail to address relevant points if their don't suit your personal agenda. Perhaps you could remind people of the requirements of the MOU and the EU statement which you conveniently ignore because they don't suit your biased agenda. Even SB has stated the requirements. Even SB supports the ISIA criteria even though he himself does not fullfill the relevant criteria. I can only assume that you are not an instructor and no involvement in regulation or law as you seem to have no knowledge of either only your holidays. I can only hope you ahve not heard the stories I have.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
David Goldsmith wrote:
Gerry wrote:

BTW, your 'expert' witness page is still up along with your address and list of laughable credentials.


It most certainly IS NOT. I have not offered these services for over 15 years.


You're an idiot:

http://www.expertsearch.co.uk/cgi-bin/find_expert?2197
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@TTT, the ability to proceed at high speed down a mountain on a pair of skis has absolutely nothing to do with the ability to teach people how to ski, case in point Chemmy Alcott who would certainly manage a eurotest (though she would get a automatic pass due to her FIS points) recently took part in a BASI training course after she discovered that she was actually hopeless at teaching a beginner friend how to ski. Teaching requires that you can teach the correct techniques not that you can go safely from top to bottom of the slope in a very fast time. The best that can be said for the ET is that it MIGHT be useful if you are teaching/training prospective racers.

For that matter what about snowboard instructors ? I read somewhere that the requirements have changed recently but it certainly used to be the case that in order to be a snowboard instructor in France you had to pass the ET on GS skis... that has about as much relevance as telling a driving instructor that in order to teach people how to drive a car he needs to be able to be at a near competitive level on superbikes !


Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Sun 10-05-15 16:42; edited 1 time in total
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@TTT,

Whoever compared ski instruction to the profession of a doctor needs investigating as it has absolutely no bearing or comparison. I do not think any ski instructor would consider their training and profession on par with that of a doctor. You keep alluding to this are you serious ? Do you personally think that the training a ski instructor goes through and the work they do when qualified is the same/on par with that of a doctor ?

It is not easy to qualify as a BASI L4 but can you name one BASI L4 who did 100 plus hour weeks of training just for the BASI L4 weekly and with the same level of intensive responsibility for people that a doctor on an ER unit would deal with?

Maybe you just like insulting the medical profession to detract from reality ?

Experience is not and never has been an exam with a pass or fail it is a sliding scale someone with x amount of experience but a few more qualifications may pass the threshold over someone with x +1 experience and possibly just one less exam behind them. To equate to exam passes shows how little grasp you have of what the word significant means.

At no point have we said a person who fails their ski instructor exams can work so why mention again doctors and nurses. You are desperate to show SB and anyone showing any support be it fully or partial for him in a bad light. Why would you be so vested in doing so unless you have an ulterior motive such as maybe some BASI board members have potentially demonstrated in their treatment of SB already.

Your agenda is the one that is biased you ignore basic facts that the ET in itself is not a significant difference it is what you have to do if their is a significant difference. You ignore the fact that SB's credentials show no significant difference and that the French already know this and thus their actions be construed as harassment.
The training schools is a different matter but as it is clear the ESF are not recognising the right of any other nation to open training schools for their own instructors but within the French remit of 10 fully qualified then in reality how can you then say that an instructor is breaking the rules when a governing body is doing so on a much larger scale. Maybe the bosses of the ESF should now all be arrested and locked up?
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
TTT wrote:

are you seriously suggesting that doctors and nurses which the directive specifically mentions can work anywhere in Europe if they fail their exams?

No. Next.
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Trolls never admit to having lost an argument: that's not going to happen.

It's interesting to have one who's quite so isolated though. There must be some commercial interest, I think, else why bother? Even then, why bother?

Making European doctors take a race test would be about as useful as making ski instructors take one, so whilst you need to be careful with analogy especially around trolls that one illustrates the original issue quite well.
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Phil, I agree, it's all a bit fishy.
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@D G Orf, it is an objective test that you a good skier and that you have trained to the standard of a good club skier. It is just one part but not by a long way the only part of the training.

The same directive applies to doctors and ski instructors so the same principles apply. They have to pass their exams just as I and lots of other people in lots of other professions do.

I have read the relevant EU documentation, I spend a lot of time with locals and instructors so I know their views. I work with the law and regulation, I ski with locals and all levels. I have seen the UKIP video. I have seen the basi meeting videos with the SB camp. I have seen the FB comments from the SB camp. I have heard the stories from former customers. I know these people for what they are. There is another view point to that of SB and his associates.
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Quote:

else why bother? Even then, why bother?

She must be married to some BASI person involved in this, or has met and envies SB bad Cool

Quote:
I spend a lot of time with locals and instructors so I know their views.


Mmm yet you ski in Austria and hardly ever in France.. Isn't that a crazy commute?
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After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
@TTT, as I said above, the Eurotest is way, way above the standard of a "good club skier" if you don't live in the Alps.

As I said also, you clearly have no idea what you are talking about in this regard.

Which does not reflect well on any of your other arguments, if anyone has been able to keep track of them.


Last edited by After all it is free Go on u know u want to! on Sun 10-05-15 18:54; edited 1 time in total
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@under a new name, but it is a good club skier in the alps though! Skiing with locals and colleagues is a very very humbling experience. To claim to be a ski instructor in their company would be very embarrassing and just not credible!

@geeo, no relationship with anyone in basi and I can promise you that I don't envy SB or want to be anything like him! As I've said I've seen the videos. May be he does something for you but not for me. Very Happy
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TTT wrote:
@D G Orf, it is an objective test that you a good skier and that you have trained to the standard of a good club skier. It is just one part but not by a long way the only part of the training.

The same directive applies to doctors and ski instructors so the same principles apply. They have to pass their exams just as I and lots of other people in lots of other professions do.

I have read the relevant EU documentation, I spend a lot of time with locals and instructors so I know their views. I work with the law and regulation, I ski with locals and all levels. I have seen the UKIP video. I have seen the basi meeting videos with the SB camp. I have seen the FB comments from the SB camp. I have heard the stories from former customers. I know these people for what they are. There is another view point to that of SB and his associates.


So as an objective test this can be done visually no need to put a clock to it after all if it is about std of skiing better to pass someone who is technically correct than someone who is out of balance almost falls during the course and at the end loses control and crashes potentially into someone else ( or is that your view of a good club skier)?
People here have conceded that for teaching racers and I think most would also agree if they have not already done so advanced skiers as well that the ET is a valid training/race test but also even then the time requirement is still debatable at the percentage it is set to at present. Also the ESF have said it is about safety so that would negate women having a separate time.

I would suggest next time you actually turn the light on prior to reading the document wink

Also polish your crystal ball it is not the only thing getting a bit foggy NehNeh ( you possibly now the views of a small select group of people some who may well be biased one way or the other).

Wow ! great now after watching the UKIP video why not watch some ski instruction ones and see just how little a speed test has to do with teaching beginners.
They are passionate people fighting what they perceive as a just cause against unjust implementation of rules. So there is a different view point than yours and your nameless hord. ( After all how do we know your skiing buddies including yourself is not a group of one! ).


The examination process for doctors is completely different than for ski instructors ( BASI don't even use the OU never mind actual bricks and mortar universities, though who knows if they did maybe it would start a whole new helmet/headwear debate Shocked ).
( Then again maybe all instructors need to take an engineering degree so as to safely explain how the equipment works such as bindings).
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