 Poster: A snowHead
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@SkiPresto, yes, look in the menu top right of each page.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Use the send /read button at the top right of the screen.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@skipresto . it is, I think if you go to your profile you can access it from there
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@laundryman, I've read both versions and the derogation. . The new version no longer refers to the level below which is one of the SB arguments so even if wins case will not help going forward. I would suggest MOU is persuasive evidence as to how the various parties have agreed how the EU rules should be interpreted. It is the long standing interpretation of the rules and the delegated act based on the mou including the ET and EMS will formalise that. The EU rules are not ski specific other than the derogation, as the new versions of the EU rules are just revisions I see no reason why it should not apply. SB and his supporters and the relevant French and basi and their lawyers and the EU clearly interpret the EU rules differently. I've always accepted that the courts will ultimately decide and I would expect them to consider the MOU and delegated act as expert evidence of what the eu rules mean in practice. The EU and the courts will decide.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@TTT, two wrongs do not make a right. Just because someone else's behaviour is not following guidelines in does not mean we can all be so obtuse.
The media complaints department would get very busy.........
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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I hold one of the professional qualifications listed in the directive which counts as being a recognised qualification under the directive. I recognise my basi and foreign fully qualified foreign instructors as also being fully qualified professionals as the MOU does. They have a corresponding amount of training, experience and standard of expertise in their field. I am sorry but there is just no way that the lower level ski training I have done is in any way comparable to the standard and training for my professional qualification recognised by the directive. I just don't see how the lower levels are covered by the directive. It is insulting to doctors and nurses and other professionals to suggest otherwise.
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@Dunk, indeed they don't. I think guidelines are like EU rules. Open to interpretation. I happen to find the attitudes of some of the SB camp expressed on social media highly offensive. There are clearly some good people as well, in particular the one who is publicly distancing himself. . I know some.
I would not concern yourself unduly though as I consider myself a lapsed member as I was simply too busy travelling to cancel my direct debit and plan to quit the whole scene as it the reason I have lost interest and decided to stop skiing other than a bit of social skiing with good people. I will continue to follow the case as the development of the EU rules are of professional relevance to me and the reason for my interest.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Dunk, the offensive comments I have seen have come from 2 of the 6. Some of the others just seem to have extreme political agendas or have deep long standing personal issues with basi or just personal issues.
I did indeed assume that the one who distanced himself supported more French employment opportunities, He is perfectly entitled to those views just as the French and basi are to theirs. The story he related was shocking. I have heard others. I am in complete agreement with him on what is the main issue here as far as I'm concerned. Respect to him. The rest is just different points of views.
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@TTT, I'm assuming that you are referring to the saluting story ... and I agree, it's worse than shocking, nobody can condone such actions from anyone; however do not be fooled into believing that the story was mentioned in relation to anything beyond his own agenda. He is one of the "Megeve 6" and should therefore be equally worthy of the derision you direct towards the rest of them.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| TTT wrote: |
| I recognise my basi and foreign fully qualified foreign instructors as also being fully qualified professionals as the MOU does. |
With regards to this, it would be helpful if you said what you mean i.e. qualified to the highest level, because as has been pointed out all individuals whom hold qualifications from their awarding bodies are fully qualified.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I have no derision for lower levels whatsoever. That is just twisting words. I know lots who do a very admirable job. I am just pointing out the reality as trainers and the lower levels I know see it and the EU rules. I certainly don't have derision for someone who has level 3 and EMS and more importantly has respect for other cultures who may have different values from their own.
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You know it makes sense.
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@Dunk, disappointed with you. Totally indefensible and illegal in some countries. Words are sufficient.
I've also had grief from a lower level brit instructor as a result of their inability to read a very large and simple sign in the local language. They also had no ability to simply communicate with the local lifties. The SB camp conveniently ignore these parts of the EU and ISIA rules that they supposedly support.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@TTT, I agree, pushing over a girl would be seen as an assault.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@Dunk, not remotely funny. You know what I mean
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@TTT, so which behaviour are you condoning?
You seem to put emphasis upon the Megeve six members actions and yet seem to be exonerating the ESF members?
Is saluting worse than assault?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@TTT, I am just trying to balance, I don't agree with either.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Theyjust don't getting queuing on the continent. For them it is entirely normal behaviour and not an issue. Of course pushing over a young girl if true is not acceptable. I don't like getting pushed around in lifts either but it happens all the time. The salute has very deep signifigance in some cultures and your flippant comment is not worthy of you. I really suggest that you don't go there as I have heard other shocking stories from good sources.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@TTT, I have heard other stories and seen things happen. But sometimes if things are taken out of context they can change in their appearance. If you pm me the stories I could help corroborate or suggest otherwise.
The pushing over of the girl is as true as the salute, believe one then you should believe the other.
Both are wrong.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| TTT wrote: |
| Theyjust don't getting queuing on the continent. For them it is entirely normal behaviour and not an issue. |
Are you serious? Or just a comic troll? Is that the alpine culture we're supposed to be so deferential to as 'umble flatlanders?
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| Quote: |
Theyjust don't getting queuing on the continent
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I don't like getting pushed around in lifts either but it happens all the time.
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Like @Dave of the Marmottes, I'm assuming that this is either a bit of flippant sarcasm or your experience of French skiing is rather less extensive than you'd have us believe.
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@pam w, @TTT Does live in Chamonix, maybe they are more civilised over there, or they don't like to push women over.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Teacher, I have spent months every year since 2003 skiing in France and whilst I mostly choose times and places where queues are rare I have found the vast majority (whether at the lifts, at the lift pass office or the boulangerie) to be polite and orderly. The general exception is the Paris holidays; Parisian skiers often seem to be rather rude and impatient, sadly. But then if you go to France in the Paris holidays......... 
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| pam w wrote: |
| But then if you go to Megeve in the Paris holidays......... |
FIFY.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| pam w wrote: |
| @Teacher, I have spent months every year since 2003 skiing in France and whilst I mostly choose times and places where queues are rare I have found the vast majority (whether at the lifts, at the lift pass office or the boulangerie) to be polite and orderly. The general exception is the Paris holidays; Parisian skiers often seem to be rather rude and impatient, sadly. But then if you go to France in the Paris holidays......... |
And busier Italian resorts: the Italians seem to LOVE living up their national stereotypes! I have to admit I quite enjoy it, though you do have to play by their rules and muscle your way through a bit.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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A test in French queueing etiquette would be more useful than a "race" test.
People being taught to ski or board are very likely to be in French lift queues, but almost none of them will ever be in a race.
It really is that simple.
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| philwig wrote: |
| People being taught to ski or board are very likely to be in French lift queues, but almost none of them will ever be in a race. |
I think that almost none is a bit of an overestimation there, but I get your sentiment.
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You know it makes sense.
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I think that anyone who is wholesale anti- race training (be it geared towards the TT or the ET) is missing something. However, anyone whom is of the opinion that that training is needed in order to a good ski instructor is also missing something.
As has been previously mentioned in various threads training for these tests improves the skier's performance, and their ability to localize within a root cause analysis for addressing shortcomings in both their own, and their students' skiing technique.
There is a place for both of those tests and the training that accompanies them, but that place should not be the barrier to becoming part of the workforce in France. It (the TT) is not such a barrier in other countries, so why should it be so in France?
Because the local qualifications system uses the TT as an entry test, and the ET as an exit test?
It is brilliant that the French system has a defined pathway, and it works for them. However, not recognising a qualification from another country based on their own entry and exit criteria is ludicrous.
cf.
You did your Psychology Degree at Swansea and they stipulated that in order to study there you should have two A' Levels at D or above?
I know that you have an Honours degree, however, it's against the law for you to work here because we take Psychology Degree holders whom were accepted onto the course in Bangor whilst holding three A' Levels at grades BB and C or above; and oh yes, you must have competed your exams within an hour each.
Or is that too "out there" for comparison?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@billy not a boy, +1
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Poster: A snowHead
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So what happens if the UK leaves the EU as SB wants or employment restictions are agreed. I'm sure there will be some rights for some people to stay and visas for some but could the cases become irrelevant?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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That's a pretty tricky one to answer isn't it. After all, Switzerland are not in Europe, but they are happy to agree to a lot of EU directives. I guess it will depend upon governmental decisions.
And as far as I am aware, Japan isn't in Europe and they are quite okay wit BASI L2 and L3 instructors; same goes for Canada, Australia, New Zealand, USA, Argentina, et al.
Does SB want the UK to leave Europe?
Personally I think that it would be a crazy move.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| TTT wrote: |
| So what happens if the UK leaves the EU as SB wants or employment restictions are agreed. I'm sure there will be some rights for some people to stay and visas for some but could the cases become irrelevant? |
The UK will stay signed up to the free movement of workers agreement, as the Swiss have.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| billy not a boy wrote: |
That's a pretty tricky one to answer isn't it. After all, Switzerland are not in Europe, but they are happy to agree to a lot of EU directives. I guess it will depend upon governmental decisions.
And as far as I am aware, Japan isn't in Europe and they are quite okay wit BASI L2 and L3 instructors; same goes for Canada, Australia, New Zealand, USA, Argentina, et al.
Does SB want the UK to leave Europe?
Personally I think that it would be a crazy move. |
Agreed.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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The fact that the UK is in Europe ought to prevent ESF protectionism, and maybe ultimately it will. Meanwhile there are countries outside Europe which don't operate closed shops. Hence it's hard to see how "European Law" is actually helping much in this case.
I'm absolutely pro-European, hence I'm unhappy when the ESF and BASI combine to defeat the common market. The remainder is mostly noise.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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@Dunk, thanks but I have no reason to doubt my source who was a regular customer. Now we are really getting into areas where it is difficult to comment.
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@Dave of the Marmottes, I can only assume that you go touring or have not lived and worked in certain part of Europe. I really can't comment on France. Not my bag for skiing. No idea of apres and too many Brits of a certain disposition.
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I really can't comment on France. Not my bag for skiing. No idea of apres and too many Brits of a certain disposition.
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This from a self-professed expert on: the ESF, the status of BASI in France, the status of specific individuals working in Megeve, the competence of ski instructors generally working in France, French law and the application of European law in France. And, of course, someone who professes to abhor xenophobia. Most puzzling.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Hurtle, im sure you are right that it would be puzzling to you.
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@Hurtle, you don't have to like a place to have a view / understand the place?
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