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BASI sued for £500 000

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
BS. Talk about obfuscating. Language ability etc has sod all to the points at issue.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@TrollTrollTroll You're deliberately twisting.

A decent UK qualified instructor can teach just as well as the equivalently qualified French instructor.

The problem is that a closed shop operates in France. The ESF guys fight all comers to maintain it. It's sad that a UK qualified instructor has to start by fighting his own organisation, but there it is. If he wins perhaps UK instructors will no longer have to suffer this indignity; if he loses, well there are other organisations with more backbone and perhaps more self respect.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Still some people can not grasp there is a difference between the EU rules and whether those rules are right or not. They also can not grasp that different countries have different cultures and values. The only closed shop is that you have to be a good skier to work in France. There is a lot more options available than other countries and it is the one country where the instructors rather than the ski school owners who make the money. It is a peculiarly British attitude that hobby amateurs can do the same job as professionals and that it is not necessary to learn the language of the country you work in. It reeks of ignorance, arrogance, low intelligence and xenophobia.
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@Dave of the Marmottes, you may think it is irrelevant that I had to deal with an accident because the instructor did not have basic local language skills. I don't. You should not be teaching on the mountain if you don't have decent enough local language skills to deal with an incident in my view. The lack of respect for local culture is the very heart of this issue. Language is at the core of understanding culture and values. SB can't be bothered to learn the language. Clearly he has no respect for others and he gets the respect he deserves.
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@TTT, we've read your character assassinations and diversionary tactics before. Please bring the discussion up to date: are you pleased or disappointed by the latest French court ruling?
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@laundryman, I believe I'm right in thinking that you respect SB. I am therefore inclined to think that he is indeed worthy of respect, whether or not he speaks French. I also find it somewhat unlikely that he hasn't picked up some of the language during his time out there. Btw, I must "reek of ignorance, arrogance, low intelligence and xenophobia": during my years working in an international law firm, I had to advise clients and draft documents in French and, whilst my legal French was frankly pis$-poor, I managed to pick enough up as I went along and no actions for negligence ensued. I hazard a guess that SB has managed in the same way in a somewhat less technical (in terms of vocabulary) environment.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@Hurtle, SB has a smattering of French. Our very first conversation, 20 or so years ago, was in Franglais, when we both confused each other for the person come to pick up a giant laundry basket at his hotel - hence my moniker! Since then, my French has come on quite a lot; to be truthful, Simon's not so much. However, he sends his kids to school in France, and of course they are completely bilingual. In summary, language skills are just not his forte; but his commitment to France, despite everything, is real.
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After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
@laundryman, I sometimes wondered where you got your name!
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Quote:

I sometimes wondered where you got your name!


Indeed, this is one of the few things I've learnt from this discussion. wink I do agree that an instructor teaching in France should speak more than a smattering of French but language skills are, indeed, irrelevant to this discussion. There are plenty of other British instructors, teaching legally in France, who speak very little French but this has not stopped them being issued with the relevant bits of paper. The then boss of BASS Les Gets (since elevated to much higher things, I believe) told me many years ago that the French test he'd had to pass was negligible.
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There is so much self-serving nonsense in this debate but this takes the biscuit!

"There is not a significant number of basi members eager to snow plough for minimum wages. If they want to there are opportunities elsewhere so no issue for majority. "

The VAST majority of BASI members are not ISTDs, and never will be, and therefore fall into this dismissive definition. It is this attitude, of a domineering inner clique of "proper" instructors, that alienates those who fund this shambolic organisation.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
I agree that the language issue is not directly relevant to the legal cases. However, laws are just reflect the values that society and culture decides. Ultimately this is a dispute over different values from different cultures and if you don't understand the language it is difficult to understand the culture. The language test is inadequate and the French could legally impose one under EU rules so it may well be introduced in the future.

I'm ambivalent about the legal outcome. Given that time and finances are finite I've no desire to snow plough for minimum wages and I've no desire not to use those limited resources other than for top quality fully qualified professional instruction as I have found that provides the best value. I've also no interest to spend holiday time in another country in a little England environment as one of the points of a foreign holiday for me is interacting with a different culture.

I don't know the process point. I think SBs own qualification is a grey area but that he should have done the capa or ET. I don't think that employment of lower staff is covered by EU rules but whether that is right or wrong is open to debate.

What I don't like having been on the receiving end of racism is SBs UKIP comments and the constant stream of extreme right wing, xenophobic, anti French and anti BASI comments from a few of his associates on FB which do SB and his associates no favours.
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
TTT wrote:

What I don't like having been on the receiving end of racism is SBs UKIP comments and the constant stream of extreme right wing, xenophobic, anti French and anti BASI comments from a few of his associates on FB which do SB and his associates no favours.


Moderators?

Is this acceptable?

Yet more 'hiding behind anonymous username on snowHeads' to make allegations strangely devoid of proof/quotes.
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So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@gilo, it is just reality. Only about 400 people voted in the last election so that is the number that are actively engaged with these issues. I've not met anyone other than a few retentive people who take level one and two seriously. It is just a way to improve skiing and a hobby. We know that the standard of level one and two is not very high, that we have very limited instruction capability and that there are very limited work opportunities and low wages. We don't take it seriously. We just want to have fun and ski and are sick of the minority of deluded xenophobes.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@TTT,
Quote:

What I don't like having been on the receiving end of racism is SBs UKIP comments and the constant stream of extreme right wing, xenophobic, anti French and anti BASI comments from a few of his associates on FB which do SB and his associates no favours.

Facebook is the place to complain then, I don't think they tolerate racism though I am not on Facebook..

Frankly in as much as language skills are important by far and away the most important language to speak is to the class, ESF at times fails lamentably on this use of language, though many are excellent.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@TTT, I can see a limited and very important role for anonymity - whistleblowing scandals and so on, where an informant may compromise their own security by having their identity known - but what you're doing here is blowing around a whole dungheap, while hiding inside it.

What's effective/moral about that? I don't think you're posting in good faith.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@T Bar,
Quote:

ESF at times fails lamentably on this use of language
My experience - admittedly from many years ago - is that at times they fail lamentably on use of their own language. I have spoken fluent French from infancy and didn't have a clue what some of them were on about. Mind you, I can't imagine this is a problem confined to France.

@David Goldsmith, for once I agree with you. Here is someone who likes to pronounce authoritatively about all kinds of things, without divulging his sources, or whether he actually knows the people he is pontificating about, let alone his qualifications to opine on European law. He won't even say what his 'profession' (frequently alluded to) is, although he has said that he has a lot of contact with lawyers, poor chap. I have no faith in what he posts, let alone any sympathy with his patronising manner.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
TTT wrote:
@gilo, it is just reality. Only about 400 people voted in the last election so that is the number that are actively engaged with these issues. I've not met anyone other than a few retentive people who take level one and two seriously. It is just a way to improve skiing and a hobby. We know that the standard of level one and two is not very high, that we have very limited instruction capability and that there are very limited work opportunities and low wages. We don't take it seriously. We just want to have fun and ski and are sick of the minority of deluded xenophobes.

I don't think many customers would want to ski with an instructor at any level, who's head was so far up his/her own arse.


Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Sat 2-05-15 10:47; edited 1 time in total
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@laundryman, great post, except......................... Shocked
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There is plenty of anti French and anti BASI comments on FB which go over the top. The French are (insert term of abuse) and liking those comments are not acceptable in my view. I believe they have been deleted now. Indeed some of SBs associates to their credit have disassociated themselves from the anti French element. If anyone had ever been on the receiving end of racism or xenophobia then they would realise that there is an unpleasant element which is not acceptable to the majority.
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@TTT,
If true it has no relevance to either the court case or the discussion here.
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@laundryman, I've found the vast majority of basi members are very humble about their abilities including the top guys who openly admit they are nothing compared to the pros. There are just a small core of people who take themselves too seriously and like to rant and bully others who have a more mainstream view of the world.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@TTT, are you talking about Cyprien Durand?
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After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
@TTT, thanks, you've illustrated my point perfectly! The best thing that can possibly come of all the SB publicity is that it awakens the passive majority of "limited capability" to mobilise and vote out the elitist board for a truly representative one. Failing that, people can do as I have this week and cancelled my direct debit to an organisation I was once proud to be a member of. Fund your own infighting, I'm out. ( fails to find hand wiping emoji) wink


Last edited by After all it is free Go on u know u want to! on Sat 2-05-15 15:39; edited 1 time in total
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@Hurtle, thank you for making me smile with your patronising post! I've read the actual legislation entirely and not selectively. That is all. I make no claim to being a lawyer or what they will ultimately decide. I think a lot of people are commenting without reading the law. It's all very cliquey. I'm just putting the other side of the story.
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@TTT, just type out your name - it might assist your self-discipline!

Simon Butler is fighting his case under full exposure and testing of legal testimony, under extensive media glare. If you have factual material (as distinct from TittleTattleTosh) that challenges his argument, best to present it with an authentic by-line.

Behaving like a crazed flea will get you nowhere.
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 snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
@David Goldsmith, the EU law, the French Derogation and the EU statements are all publicly available as are the comments on FB to the extent they have not been deleted. I always find it best to read the source documents rather than someone else's biased interpretation. Those are the basis of my views. The courts will decide. I have no say. I'm merely highlighting that there are other sides to the story and being honest about my reasons why I'm less sympathetic to their cause than I previously was. There was an article recently on the BBC about the 100 cognitive biases. You can tick most off on here. I openly admit I don't like xenophobia.
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@laundryman, there is good and bad on both sides. Not just on one side as some would claim.
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@stewart woodward, that will teach you to ask Happy
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
DG and TTT going at it... We could be here for a while!
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@gilo, the SB case with all its publicity clearly hasn't mobilised the passive majority to date though. I agree that the Board represents the 'elite' but I disagree it is unrepresentative as it is weighted to those who make they living from instructing and therefore have the most interest. The majority clearly are not that bothered about the SB case or working in France despite the claims from SB to the contrary. If SB and his associates want to turn BASI into a pro SB, anti French lobby group then I don't understand why they don't just stand for election.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@xedbot, Happy don't worry I've seen the helmet debate! He has a few attempts on FB and just gets ignored. Lots of sides to this story otherwise it would not cause such excitement. It's been running for at least 20 years and would not be surprised if it runs another 20 without me having any influence at all. I did informally counsel avoiding all of this once but there is just too much history now. Always politics in every organisation and always will be especially in one with so many diverse interests.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@T Bar, you think there would be a court case if there was not this divergence of underlying believes and views?
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@TTT, quite possibly why SB or his associates did not stand for election is that they did not want to be on the board that is potentially going to oversee large legal costs and damages?

The board is weighted towards those who make a living training those who wish to make a living from instructing. Very Happy Very Happy
If the route towards employment followed the path SB advocates, those who earn a living training would not be so advantaged. This could be where some problems exist between board and SB.
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TTT wrote:
@Hurtle, thank you for making me smile with your patronising post! I've read the actual legislation entirely and not selectively. That is all. I make no claim to being a lawyer or what they will ultimately decide. I think a lot of people are commenting without reading the law. It's all very cliquey. I'm just putting the other side of the story.


You've been 'hurtled'. It's like being at a wedding reception when you're 6 and getting told off by some decrepit old aunt you've never seen before.
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
David Goldsmith wrote:
TTT wrote:

What I don't like having been on the receiving end of racism is SBs UKIP comments and the constant stream of extreme right wing, xenophobic, anti French and anti BASI comments from a few of his associates on FB which do SB and his associates no favours.


Moderators?

Is this acceptable?

Yet more 'hiding behind anonymous username on snowHeads' to make allegations strangely devoid of proof/quotes.


TTT, you need to use window's snipping tool to capture that stuff.
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@Dunk, agreed. As I've said it is mainly about money on both sides. SB has a capitalist model where he makes most of the money by employing lower paid, lower qualified staff and the French have a socialist model using higher qualified staff where the instructors make most of the money. Most of the basi instructors fall in the second category and most of the active wannabee instructors want to be in that second category. The passive minority as they have been termed really don't care as they know they won't make any money as a ski instructor under either system.

SB and his associates don't stand because they know they would not win and it would damage the perception they like to convey. Less than 15pc voted for a non ISTD in the last election. Like their UKIP friends, they are a verciferous but ultimately small, unsavoury and unpopular group.

I do know some very good people associated with SB. One of the 6 comes across as a really good bloke on FB. SB should have a word with the others or distance himself as they are harming his cause.

@Gerry, I never did accept any grief from cantankerous old aunts wink
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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@Gerry, thanks, I only waste my time with this rubbish when I'm travelling and don't have the snip tool on my free but archaic smart phone. Pity as it would brutally highlight some of SB associates for who they really are. Not pleasant.
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After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
@TTT, not all associates and supporters are so vociferous and unbending in their opinions.
How was Hintertux?
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TTT wrote:
I do know some very good people associated with SB. One of the 6 comes across as a really good bloke on FB. SB should have a word with the others or distance himself as they are harming his cause

Oh so true! I've heard that both the French and European courts are avid readers of Mr Butler's Facebook page (and probably follow him on Twitter too). rolling eyes

Laughing Laughing Laughing get a grip!
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Call me pedantic(a) if you like but 93/380 voted for rob@rar for Alpine Director, that is a lot more than "Less than 15pc"....and rob is not in any way one of SB's vociferous supporters (or even non vociferous). Feeble turnout though, that has to be said.

I don't really get where you stand in the big picture TTT?
You bang on about what an indifferent bunch of instructors BASI produce, no better than a club skier at the highest level since you have repeatedly told us that is the meagre standard they need to be to get ISTD/Eurotest.
Yet you say you only take instruction from the very finest of elite instructors, my impression is that anything less than an Olympic Team coach is not worthy, I'm not being sarcastic, that is my genuine impression of the standard you have set.

So can we assume that means you don't take instruction from any BASI persons, and if not....why do you care so much that you go on, and on, and on, and.....?
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