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BASI sued for £500 000

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Quote:
Its also a shame that people don't realise that ski instructing isn't just about teaching people to snowplough...

@offpisteskiing, which people are those? I don't think I've ever met one.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@laundryman - as per a post about 2 or 3 above mine, and every time the old "why do you have to beat a world cup racer to teach snowploughs" line gets trotted out...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@offpisteskiing, I still don't see it. I think all people have said is that it's not necessary to be a great (or even a good) racer to teach beginners and intermediates. Not that all good racers are incapable of teaching at lower levels; nor that ability at racing is irrelevant to coaching advanced skiers.
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You don't have to be a great or good racers or even a racer to pass the ET. Plenty of Brit non racers pass the ET every year. You do have to be a good skier. You are not paying for their racing ability. You are paying for someone who together with the EMS is comfortable and safe in all conditions and the knowledge they have gained as a result of training for the ET and EMS I agree in practices that not necessary to teach someone to snow plough but the vast majority of skiers are imtermediates and they would definitely benefit. They are not only better skiers but better teachers because they themselves have had to go through a lot of learning and training to pass. I think it does brit skiers a disservice to suggest that they would not benefit from the knowledge of a highly trained skier. I've seen all levels benefit from that extra ability and knowledge. They have the ability to demonstrate and see things that lesser skiers qualified skiers can't and are better value. I still don't see what people have against good trained skiers.
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@TTT,

I do not think anyone has suggested it would not be an advantage but does it need to be compulsory ? There are many great BASI L3 who would because, as an example age, or an injury not now be able to pass the ET or TT why should that stop them from being able to attain BASI L4 ISTD which is the equivalent of the ESF std ? They have instructors who are not now capable of passing the tests either due to age or injury, yet are able to continue teaching.
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@speed098, I would not disagree particularly. I see level 4 as the level for working independently and level 3 as working for ski schools with level 2s working the peak holiday periods with beginners ideally as part of a level 3 training programme much as in CH. People stil get confused between this and the EU rules on this matter which only cover independent top level. I don't have a particular problem with the isia system which SB supports with level 4s independent with a speed test and 3s working for ski schools. This would require them to be able to teach in the local language. There is a reason there is a lot of dutch instructors out there.
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TTT wrote:
I still don't see what people have against good trained skiers.

Nor do I. Nor does anyone. It's the same straw man, over and over.
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After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
I just happen to think a ski instructor should be a good skier. Same denial of convictions, EU rules, French regulations and the majority of professional ski instructors. SB customers and instructors are a very small minority compared to the mass of French instructors and the majority of BASI who work happily with the current system. The EU does not revolve around a few people who want an all Brit package or a few renegade instructors.
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TTT wrote:
Same denial of convictions

Denial of overturned and suspended convictions more like. I bet that really hurt.

Quote:
The EU does not revolve around a few people who want an all Brit package or a few renegade instructors.

It revolves around free movement of labour, not protectionism. And administrations adhering to regulations.
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The relevant EU rules though are about the recognition of equivalent professional qualifications. Society has rules, regulations and governance because free markets fail. People are free to move and do if they have the same qualifications. These qualifications protect consumers and workers. People with experience of different instructor set ups do not use the lower qualified well known operations because as an L3 said to me only people who don't know better use these organisations because there is a lot better qualified, better quality and better value instruction elsewhere. You seem more concerned about the half million annual profits of one individual then ski instructors making a decent wage or consumers getting professionally qualified and highly trained instructors.
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@TTT, I've only ever used professionally qualified instructors and guides, trained to do what I have engaged them for. I'd like to be able to continue to pick them according to my own reason or whim, not yours.

It did hurt last Wednesday, didn't it?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
TTT wrote:
I still don't see what people have against good trained skiers.
Your troll is not even lame.

There seems to be good consensus on the real issue. The fact that your own posts deliberately avoid it shows you're entirely aware of it.
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TTT wrote:
You don't have to be a great or good racers or even a racer to pass the ET.


You clearly have not the first idea of what you are talking (?) about. Not the first, not even the zeroeth.

Stupid comment.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
TTT wrote:
The relevant EU rules though are about the recognition of equivalent professional qualifications.


Absolute nonsense, what you will find when you read the relevant literature is that the EU rules are about the recognition of professional qualifications, there is no mention of "equivalent"
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TTT wrote:
I see level 4 as the level for working independently and level 3 as working for ski schools with level 2s working the peak holiday periods


and why is that exactly? If someone is qualified to do something, there is no time limit on how long they can do it for, there is not limit upon whether or not they work for themselves of for someone else, that is a personal choice, and is not dictated by qualification.
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laundryman wrote:
It did hurt last Wednesday, didn't it?


I'd imagine it did, and I'd imagine there are a few squeaky bottoms in Morlich House at the moment ... god forbid, they might just be wrong.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@billy not a boy, Well it has been proven that they are wrong, all the Instructors involved have been acquitted of any wrong doing and they now know it, now that their dossiers are with administrative court they will all be issued their Carte pro to continue working as they were before, as i'm led to believe from lots of comments on the basi FaceBook page they have also have any criminal record revoked.

Personally good on them too, can any of us imagine the stress that these guys have had over the last 14 months.

They deserve every penny of compensation thats coming to them.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
I'm just waiting for BASI to call up the judge who presided in Chambery and school him on the Law
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TTT wrote:
You seem more concerned about the half million annual profits of one individual then ski instructors making a decent wage or consumers getting professionally qualified and highly trained instructors.


I really don't buy the argument about ski instructors not being able to make a decent wage, on the back of SB winning his case (if he should). The implications are that qualifications will be recognized in the future in France, the same as they are throughout the rest of Europe and the world.

Remuneration is in the control of the instructors accepting or not a contract for work. If the wages are not enough, why would anyone take the job? If a business cannot find employees on a sub-standard remunerative package then they won't be in business -you need instructors to have an instructing business!

Having read through some of the comments on FB I've noticed a long time employee of SB stating that they are quite happy with their earning capability. If it were an issue do you really think that those employees would be back season after season?

A drop in earnings is a smoke screen, it is plain and simple scare-mongering.

And what's the deal about your claim that lower level qualification holders are not professionally qualified, that's just saying that BASI qualifications are not professional qualifications, where do you get off on making such a claim? I'm pretty certain that the BASI and it's members do consider their qualifications as professional, as do many employers in many countries around the world.

Highly trained, is a point that can be conceded: Sure there are various levels of qualification available within the BASI system, and those attaining the highest level of qualification are indeed more highly trained, but to suggest that levels below are not worthy of the consideration of being professionally qualified is most certainly to suggest that a BASI qualification is worthless without it being an ISTD.

What would you say to all of the nations who currently hold BASI lower level qualifications in high esteem? Do you laugh at them and make jibes behind their backs? Are they fools to you? If not, why?
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Stop, stop, all of you: there's just not enough popcorn in the world for this.
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Arctic Roll wrote:
Stop, stop, all of you: there's just not enough popcorn in the world for this.



There's always Maltesers wink
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offpisteskiing wrote:
@laundryman - as per a post about 2 or 3 above mine, and every time the old "why do you have to beat a world cup racer to teach snowploughs" line gets trotted out...


Well, why do you?

You don't need a Professor of Mathematics to teach times tables at primary school but you do need someone who can teach. Most teaching and training of pretty much anything at all is at basic or near-basic level. The French system allows large French schools to employ a range of instructors appropriate to the range of demand for different levels of instruction. It also - in effect - precludes smaller schools from doing so. It's entirely obvious that the regulations serve two purposes, to ensure a level of skiing competence from instructors and to artificially restrict supply. They don't seem to have very much to say about the ability to teach. It's classic regulation designed to serve the needs of suppliers rather than consumers and moreover provide competitive advantage to the ESF network by precluding smaller and more responsive ski schools from employing a spectrum of instructors aligned to market demand. The latter is exactly what SB was doing.

Personally, I've had level 3 and level 4 instructors and while for the most part the latter skied better, as instructors, for me, I haven't found the difference between levels signified much. What matters to me is how well the instructor can articulate the difference between what I'm doing and what I ought to be doing. I've found some level 3 do that well, some level 4 do it very well and some level 4 not so well, at least not in a way that worked for me.

What we have in European and North American snow-sport is an ageing and slowly shrinking consumer base. Regulation of ski instruction that's designed to restrict supply and restrict the ability of newer and more nimble ski schools to compete isn't going to turn that around.
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3 weeks of training makes someone professionally qualified? Primary school teachers should only have 3 weeks training I suppose. Hilarious! Think it just shows how little that some people know about ski instruction on here. Very Happy
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TTT wrote:
3 weeks of training makes someone professionally qualified? Primary school teachers should only have 3 weeks training I suppose. Hilarious! Think it just shows how little that some people know about ski instruction on here. Very Happy


So someone can be a ski instructor with only as little as three weeks of training can they?

I've never skied before in my life, but today I think I'll become a ski instructor, what do I need to do? Ah look, I can do it with just three weeks of training in BASI!


This has got to be your most moronic post yet @TTT; you really do project yourself as the most arrogant individual I've ever encountered.
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TTT wrote:
3 weeks of training makes someone professionally qualified?


What you mean mean is 3 weeks BASI training and assessment.

You seem to be disregarding all the additional workplace training and training courses* Instructors undertake to get ready for their basi courses, plus of course 200 hours shadowing required to complete their qualification. Not forgetting many Instructors undertake training and qualifications in systems other than BASI. Of course none of that stops once they achieve their qualification.

It's a bit like saying the Masters my wife has just finished is a bit rubbish because the classroom hours at the Uni amounted to about 3 weeks in total.



*Jeez, half the BASI L4s would be unemployed during the Autumn if it wasn't for Euro Test training and running performance courses, not to mention gap courses and performance courses ran through the Winter. Oh, hold on...
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I wonder why I spent all those years studying and another few years doing a professional qualification when I could have been a pro with 3 weeks formal training. I know how it works - I ski regularly with all levels. Nothing against the lower qualifications which I think are a good achievement in their own right but everyone in the game knows level 3 is where it starts getting serious. I've never had a trainer suggest otherwise. Of course all of our views are formed by our experiences. I look at level 4 as fully qualified, level 3 part. Level 3 is the international ski instructor recognition. Of course the trainers make money out of it and most enjoy the good value training without getting up about themselves. As they say the more you know the more you realise you have to learn. Quite why a few over excitable holiday brits think they know more than basi and the French about ski instruction I'm not sure.
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Just so i can catch-up as i've missed the start of all this is it...

Simon Butler (some UK ski school guy) has qualification X and teaches in France. He got arrested (or taken off the mountain / whatever) for not being qualified (according to French standards / law after being told / warned about it for ages). Since this point he's been fighting in various courts to validate his qualification, as a result of this he was kicked out of BASI because they didn't want him associated with them (or is this unknown)?

Does that sum it up?
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Quote:

over excitable holiday brits

so sH are just excitable holiday brits? including those that are BASI L2, L3, L4, and a couple that just happen to be (or now retired from) the FIS Ski World Cup circuit?

personally, as "just a punter skier" (not my words, but those of the alliterative username sH), Marcel Hirscher is not good enough for me to acquire technique from. Now I'm pretty sure he has a coach, so there's at least one person who's better than him at conveying skills knowledge to those who need to rectify balance issues.
rolling eyes
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
TTT wrote:
I wonder why I spent all those years studying and another few years doing a professional qualification when I could have been a pro with 3 weeks formal training. I know how it works - I ski regularly with all levels. Nothing against the lower qualifications which I think are a good achievement in their own right but everyone in the game knows level 3 is where it starts getting serious. I've never had a trainer suggest otherwise. Of course all of our views are formed by our experiences. I look at level 4 as fully qualified, level 3 part. Level 3 is the international ski instructor recognition. Of course the trainers make money out of it and most enjoy the good value training without getting up about themselves. As they say the more you know the more you realise you have to learn. Quite why a few over excitable holiday brits think they know more than basi and the French about ski instruction I'm not sure.


Arrogance in its extreme ... personally, I hope SB wins his case in Lyon just so that you can seethe a little bit more. I would very much like to see that smoke coming out of your pompous self gratified ears.
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Tbh, I don't know how the rest of you can possibly be bothered to argue with this person.
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Levi215 wrote:
Just so i can catch-up as i've missed the start of all this is it...

Simon Butler (some UK ski school guy) has qualification X and teaches in France. He got arrested (or taken off the mountain / whatever) for not being qualified (according to French standards / law after being told / warned about it for ages). Since this point he's been fighting in various courts to validate his qualification, as a result of this he was kicked out of BASI because they didn't want him associated with them (or is this unknown)?

Does that sum it up?


Pretty much so, with the addendum that Last week, Mr Butler was in the appeal court in Chambery, where the judge overruled and all criminal proceedings were dropped. Because, as Mr Butler had maintained, he and all of his instructors had followed the letter of the law in their declaration of intent to work. All criminal charges were revoked against what has come to be known colloquially, and rather tongue in cheek, as "The Megeve six".

The Administrative Court in Lyon will decide upon whether or not the qualifications as held by the fore mentioned six individuals, are such that they are able to work, taking into consideration the EU directive on the freedom of movement of workers and the recognition of professional qualifications.
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andy wrote:

...Marcel Hirscher is not good enough for me to acquire technique from. Now I'm pretty sure he has a coach, so there's at least one person who's better than him at conveying skills knowledge to those who need to rectify balance issues.


At that level isn't not about being better, it's about talking and reviewing ideas with other people. Hirscher is probably better than his coach, but his coach will be able to understand and bounce ideas around with him to help improve and analyse weaker areas. It's far more subtle
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@billy not a boy, thanks. So what he was doing wasn't illegal (according to court) and now it's focussed on whether the French are protecting their industry from the 'freedom of movement' principle?
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That's right @Levi215. Because all six of them are professionally qualified, Mr Butler is ISTD, three are BASI L3/ISIA, and two are BASI L2 ... incidentally, all except one of the L3 employees were working without fear of reprimand throughout this last season in Switzerland.

It appears that one of the L2 employees has worked for SB for around 14 years, and the other for around 10 ... clearly they are inexperienced in delivering ski instruction.


Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Wed 6-05-15 10:40; edited 1 time in total
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@billy not a boy, cool, so what's the French view in a nutshell? They don't recognise those qualifications as they have their own?
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billy not a boy wrote:


Pretty much so, with the addendum that Last week, Mr Butler was in the appeal court in Chambery, where the judge overruled and all criminal proceedings were dropped.


Some charges were dropped, some are suspended until December (at least according to the press articles about the case) pending a decision by the Lyon Administrative Court on whether the French interpretation on the EU directive is correct. I wouldn’t hold my breath waiting for a decision. Of course they may speed up the process at Lyon given a higher court in Chambery is waiting for a verdict.

I refer you to Stewart's post

http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=118807#2720249
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Thanks for the correction @davidof Very Happy
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Levi215 wrote:
andy wrote:

...Marcel Hirscher is not good enough for me to acquire technique from. Now I'm pretty sure he has a coach, so there's at least one person who's better than him at conveying skills knowledge to those who need to rectify balance issues.


At that level isn't not about being better, it's about talking and reviewing ideas with other people. Hirscher is probably better than his coach, but his coach will be able to understand and bounce ideas around with him to help improve and analyse weaker areas. It's far more subtle


Excellently put @Levi215, and anyone who understands this and thinks that it is alright -which it must be because it is how things work in the real world, and all top racers have coaches whom are most likely inferior skiers to themselves- cannot then argue that a lower level qualification holder cannot deliver a good lesson!

Talk about hypocrisy!
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Levi215 wrote:
@billy not a boy, cool, so what's the French view in a nutshell? They don't recognise those qualifications as they have their own?


In a nutshell it's .... "these people are not safe because they have not passed the TT and/or the ET" ... until the appeal which was ruled upon last week, it appears that Law had not been considered in this matter, but the previous judge had referred instead to the DDJS -the very people whom brought the case against SB!
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billy not a boy wrote:

Excellently put @Levi215, and anyone who understands this and thinks that it is alright -which it must be because it is how things work in the real world, and all top racers have coaches whom are most likely inferior skiers to themselves- cannot then argue that a lower level qualification holder cannot deliver a good lesson!

Talk about hypocrisy!


No doubt the coaches are in themselves very good skiers, i wouldn't expect a BASI L1 coach to be able to bounce ideas off Hircher and then they both agree on what's good. In my view it is the very top levels where that agreement on something is important because you're gathering opinion of people who are / were as good or close to being as good as you are and different ideas help you grow.

Maybe a lower level qualification holder can deliver a good lesson but the person doing it has to have been there done it and understood what's happened. My views are coming from Tennis primarily and various interviews / explanations of top level coaches. I'm 7-8 on the inside-out skiing level thing, would i be able to pick things up from a L1 instructor, no doubt i would! Would i get more out of a L4 instructor most certainly
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