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BASI sued for £500 000

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@@dogwatch, yes, that seems to be the case.
Even if his interests in the very same resort are entirely coincidental, and they felt justified in their decision, it is remarkable that someone in such a position, and other board members around them, did not spot this as a clear conflict of interest and an obvious future PR problem. Commercial interests of Basi, and Basi examiners, is a bigger problem than just this story.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Never mind the PR problem, they now have a legal problem. Judges tend to be hypersensitive on questions of conflict of interest.
ski holidays
 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
dogwatch wrote:
Teacher wrote:
@philwig, From what i have researched on this matter, the person you are referring too is not only the new BASI CEO but also Director/Owner of BASS Megeve. go figure.


So when SB was ejected from BASI, one of those who made the decision is a commercial competitor operating a ski school, moreover one in the same resort. Is that correct?
No, I don't think it is correct. The decision was made a couple of months before the current CEO took up his post and I don't think (although wasn't in the room, so couldn't say for certain) that he was involved in the Board's discussion.
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The person in question was not party to the vote as he was not in office at the time as the board minute shows. He also did not stand to gain commercially as the role is full time and precludes him working as an instructor as the ski instructor site shows.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Yes never mind that at at all. But it is significant that it wouldn't even occur to people making a decision like this, that there could be such an accusation.....an accusation which in turn could legally undermine their decision.
What sort of environment do they work in where they believe acting like this is appropriate?
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Davidof - thanks for reading documentation. The EU guidelines actually refer to degree level language skills but I agree B2 (A level) is probably sufficient. The ISIA rules which SB has publicly stated he supports say that you should be able to work in a second language. It seems that SB as he supports exiting the EU and being able to teach in a second language supports that he should not be able to work in France or maybe reading and understanding rules is also not his forte.
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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@Malaise Meleze, never mind the facts? It is documented. The ski instructing world is a small world there will always be winners and losers with any decision which would mean basi never make any decisions as there will always be conflicting interests in every organisation
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After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
@t@TTT,
I think we have different understandings of what CEOs do. Being in or out of a room doesn't stop them being CEO, and owning decisions made.
There are more ways to gain commercially than just collecting your hourly rate as an instructor.
Perhaps it's unlikely that this was the motive for the expulsion, I am just surprised that no-one in a decision making position would see how this might unravel, with these accusations of conflict of interest....


Last edited by After all it is free Go on u know u want to! on Wed 27-05-15 12:42; edited 1 time in total
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@TTT, no I meant never mind the pr debacle. I was agreeing with dogwatch that this was a legal problem.
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rob@rar wrote:
dogwatch wrote:
Teacher wrote:
@philwig, From what i have researched on this matter, the person you are referring too is not only the new BASI CEO but also Director/Owner of BASS Megeve. go figure.


So when SB was ejected from BASI, one of those who made the decision is a commercial competitor operating a ski school, moreover one in the same resort. Is that correct?
No, I don't think it is correct. The decision was made a couple of months before the current CEO took up his post and I don't think (although wasn't in the room, so couldn't say for certain) that he was involved in the Board's discussion.


Rob@rar*, the records of BASI clearly state that the decision to expel Simon Butler was taken on 1 November 2014, one day after BASI confirmed the appointment of Andrew Lockerbie as CEO:

[BASI news statement 3 November 2014]
http://www.basi.org.uk/articlelist/2014.aspx

Quote:
Simon Butler – Cessation of BASI Membership

Simon Butler’s position as a continuing member of BASI was discussed as an Agenda item at the Board Meeting held in London on Saturday 1st November 2014. Where the Board took the decision to remove Mr Butler’s membership status of the Association with immediate effect.

The matter was tabled by the Legal Director, Stephen Burke, under Article 9 of the BASI Articles of the Association, Cessation of Membership (note 1).

Mr Butler has confirmed in writing to the Association and verbally that he has recruited Level 2 and Level 3 Members to deliver lessons for his ski school operation in France. Most recently he has employed Members as independent contractors on the basis of advice from his accountants. Under current French law it is unlawful for Level 2 and Level 3 instructors to deliver lessons unless they are employed by a ski school established and recognised under French law as a Centre de Formation and meet the criteria for working in France under this arrangement. Mr Butler’s ski school does not have Centre de Formation status. Mr Butler has knowingly and continually placed other Level 2 and Level 3 Members of the Association in danger of prosecution for working illegally most recently this has culminated in the arrest and prosecution of some Members contracted by Mr Butler’s business to deliver snowsports instruction in France.

On this basis the Board exercised its discretion to remove Mr Butler with immediate effect as a Member of BASI.


Andrew Lockerbie's LinkedIn entry clearly states:

Quote:
Director, BASS Megeve, December 2009 – November 2014 (5 years)
Chairman, British Association of Snowsport Instructors, November 2003 – November 2010 (7 years 1 month)


Rob@rar* this thread has some relevance ...

"Has BASI appointed a new CEO? [Yes]"
http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=113196

... in which you criticised a report on PlanetSki ...
http://www.planetski.eu/news/6396
... and stated "it feeds those who have expressed the view that it was a favoured candidate who got the nod. There was never a favourite for the job, insider or outsider."


You linked to this BASI news release of 30 October 2014 (two days before the BASI board meeting and general meeting which determined that Simon Butler was expelled) ...

http://www.basi.org.uk/docs/BASI%20CEO%20Appt%20V8%20Final%2030%20Oct%202014.pdf

One day after that [31 Oct 2014] you confirmed ...
Quote:
I was on the selection panel for the CEO interviews. The panel interviewed the shortlist, which was drawn up by the recruitment consultancy, and recommended one name, Andrew Lockerbie, to the BASI Board for their approval and for them to manage the appointment details (salary negotiations, length of appointment, start date, etc). Although I was not a part of the Board discussions, as I'm not a Board member, I'm guessing the Board will have had a full discussion about the appointment rather than simply rubber-stamping the candidate that the selection panel recommended.


I'm no longer a member of BASI, but I would have thought that there's a bit of stuff to unwind and untangle here - not in terms of your participation but in terms of the relationships of Andy Lockerbie, BASI, ESF, Megeve, Simon Butler and so on.

This is an extremely serious matter, involving the potential jailing of a BASI member and his Association's conduct concerning that member.

-----------------------------------

* NB. The real name of rob@rar (as distinct from Rob@rar) was originally posted. It was agreed with the mods that the username (semi-anonymity) be maintained. DG


Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads on Tue 5-05-15 10:02; edited 2 times in total
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@Malaise Meleze, He was not CEO at the time of the decision
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
David Goldsmith wrote:
rob@rar wrote:
dogwatch wrote:
Teacher wrote:
@philwig, From what i have researched on this matter, the person you are referring too is not only the new BASI CEO but also Director/Owner of BASS Megeve. go figure.


So when SB was ejected from BASI, one of those who made the decision is a commercial competitor operating a ski school, moreover one in the same resort. Is that correct?
No, I don't think it is correct. The decision was made a couple of months before the current CEO took up his post and I don't think (although wasn't in the room, so couldn't say for certain) that he was involved in the Board's discussion.


Rob R


You know, I do actually have some sympathy with you on the anonymous stuff (if you're going to write something you should be prepared to put your name to it - that's what the signature is for), but it's not cool to go writing people's full names online when they themselves clearly don't want them there.
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So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
clarky999 wrote:
it's not cool to go writing people's full names online when they themselves clearly don't want them there.


I made an exception on this occasion, because Rob had stated "I was on the selection panel for the CEO interviews" ... so he'd essentially outed himself.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@clarky999, agreed.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
David, Rob@rar chooses not to use his real name on here, so you should respect that. Should he wish to use it himself that is a different matter.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
rob@rar wrote:
dogwatch wrote:
Teacher wrote:
@philwig, From what i have researched on this matter, the person you are referring too is not only the new BASI CEO but also Director/Owner of BASS Megeve. go figure.


So when SB was ejected from BASI, one of those who made the decision is a commercial competitor operating a ski school, moreover one in the same resort. Is that correct?
No, I don't think it is correct. The decision was made a couple of months before the current CEO took up his post and I don't think (although wasn't in the room, so couldn't say for certain) that he was involved in the Board's discussion.


Thanks for the clarification.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
clarky999 wrote:
(if you're going to write something you should be prepared to put your name to it - that's what the signature is for)


Anyone who has a job or is likely to want a job with any kind of seniority would be well advised not to use their name when posting outside a work context in working hours, whether as screen name or signature. I can tell you with certainty that HR routinely researches the web presence of such candidates.


Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Tue 5-05-15 9:51; edited 1 time in total
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@TTT, When I met with one of the Megeve 6 yesterday evening conversation was stifled as I was not sure which one he was....

Quote:
One of the 6 comes across as a really good bloke on FB. SB should have a word with the others or distance himself as they are harming his cause.



We spoke about the weather, nothing else.......
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@dogwatch, Two of the people on the BOD work in Megeve, The new CEO & Secretary, 100% conflict of interest.
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
dogwatch wrote:
rob@rar wrote:
dogwatch wrote:
Teacher wrote:
@philwig, From what i have researched on this matter, the person you are referring too is not only the new BASI CEO but also Director/Owner of BASS Megeve. go figure.


So when SB was ejected from BASI, one of those who made the decision is a commercial competitor operating a ski school, moreover one in the same resort. Is that correct?
No, I don't think it is correct. The decision was made a couple of months before the current CEO took up his post and I don't think (although wasn't in the room, so couldn't say for certain) that he was involved in the Board's discussion.


Thanks for the clarification.


It's a clarification, but the word was that Andrew Lockerbie was a shoo-in as chief executive and that the BASI 'selection panel' was just for show.

Question: what was really going on behind the scenes?

As I say, this is not some petty squabble - it's about a threat to a BASI member's livelihood and liberty. He was faced with a jail sentence.
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@David Goldsmith, you still on track for your 'big reveal' tomorrow?
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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@ansta1, Big Reveal? sounds interesting.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
ansta1 wrote:
@David Goldsmith, you still on track for your 'big reveal' tomorrow?


No.
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https://www.basi.org.uk/content/links.aspx

European Business Partners
BASS Morzine & Les Gets www.britishskischool.com/

What's a "European Business Partner"? Is it not a bit weird for a membership body representing instructors in general to partner with specific schools?

I also find it a bit strange that as a purchaser of lessons from BASI members, it appears to be impossible for me to check their qualifications on the BASI site.
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David Goldsmith wrote:
ansta1 wrote:
@David Goldsmith, you still on track for your 'big reveal' tomorrow?


No.


Sorry to hear that, just a slight delay or is the project shelved?
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Well ... the Ski Club of Great Britain was founded on 6 May 1903, so tomorrow will be its 112th birthday (and the national celebrations/fireworks will take place as normal).

ansta1, my gut feeling is that neither the SCGB nor BASI are fit to control what they are duty-bound to operate ... and that British skiers should create a new pathway. It's all far too murky.

That's not what I was intending to reveal, which will come later!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Correct me if I'm wrong but you're saying, British skiers need a new hub upon which to focus, a ski hub or Ski Hub of Great Britain if you will?
To be candid old boy, I think you're a smidgeon short of credibility for the task. I for one have certainly never opted in to your little enterprise and yet receive innumerable emails from it on a daily basis. It's a bloody nuisance frankly.
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Super Chap Great Bloke wrote:
I for one have certainly never opted in to your little enterprise and yet receive innumerable emails from it on a daily basis.


That's weird. Why would you you receive emails from something you've not opted into?
There must be a screw loose in your system.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
dogwatch wrote:
I also find it a bit strange that as a purchaser of lessons from BASI members, it appears to be impossible for me to check their qualifications on the BASI site.


I find it rather odd that there is no mention on the site as to who one will possibly obtain their training from, where is the index of BASI trainers?

I also find it rather odd that since @TTT makes such bold claims about how well BASI know the law, they still manage to c*ck up on one of the basic tenets upon which western civilized law is based; Innocent until proven guilty. Unless of course TTT was talking about Sharia Law
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
TTT wrote:

It is only once you are qualified that people are able to work in different countries.


What does this mean?

The BASI website talks about being qualified at L1, L2, L3, and L4; if your quote above were true and you really believed it then surely the holders of each and every level of BASI qualification should be able to work in different countries, and yet you are are quite vociferous in your postings relating to the contrary of this matter.

You either believe what you publish, or you do not. Which is it?
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These L2's who do they think they are trying to teach the likes of TTT, how dare they.

https://skiclubgb.wordpress.com/2015/04/30/chemmy-alcott-basi/
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
That's a brilliant link there @geeo; just adds a little bit of weight to the argument that ... just because one only has L1 qualification in no way at all means that they are only a beginner and have nothing of value to pass on ... all of these idiots spouting that only an ISTD is qualified to teach are just that, idiots.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@geeo, what a splendid article. Thanks for posting. Very Happy
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geeo wrote:
These L2's who do they think they are trying to teach the likes of TTT, how dare they.

https://skiclubgb.wordpress.com/2015/04/30/chemmy-alcott-basi/

Anyone know what "recent drastic changes" she's talking about in "France"? Apart from Hollande getting elected and unemployment through 3.5 million I'm struggling to think of any.
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Well bitching about France, as this looks like national sport in UK, she wouldn't be allowed to teach in Italy, Austria, Switzerland or pretty much anywhere else either Wink Racing in WC doesn't qualify you as ski instructor, and it's pretty much right to be so. Being able to win WC doesn't mean you are actually able to teach someone how to snowplow. Not because you are not able to ski, but simply because you just might not be right person to teach someone.
Ok, now lets go on with bitching about France.
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David Goldsmith wrote:
ansta1 wrote:
@David Goldsmith, you still on track for your 'big reveal' tomorrow?


No.


Good job too because I think it has been established beyond any doubt that you're full of shit.
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David Goldsmith wrote:


* NB. The real name of rob@rar (as distinct from Rob@rar) was originally posted. It was agreed with the mods that the username (semi-anonymity) be maintained. DG


Mods, I request the same courtesy.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
primoz wrote:
Well bitching about France, as this looks like national sport in UK, she wouldn't be allowed to teach in Italy, Austria, Switzerland or pretty much anywhere else either Wink Racing in WC doesn't qualify you as ski instructor, and it's pretty much right to be so. Being able to win WC doesn't mean you are actually able to teach someone how to snowplow. Not because you are not able to ski, but simply because you just might not be right person to teach someone.
Ok, now lets go on with bitching about France.



Fully agree with the highlighted comment above.

It is a shame people like TTT and the French ESF are unable to understand this fact, and put such extreme emphasis on such lowly crummy races ( in comparison to WC races ) such as the Test Technique.

NehNeh NehNeh
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speed098 wrote:



Fully agree with the highlighted comment above.

It is a shame people like TTT and the French ESF are unable to understand this fact, and put such extreme emphasis on such lowly crummy races ( in comparison to WC races ) such as the Test Technique.

NehNeh NehNeh


BASI may well have a better training and instructing system but the French ski instructors don't just do a race test and nothing more. I haven't got the curriculum to hand but there is a lot of training involved. Chemmy would normally be excused the Eurotest, assuming she can qualify within the next 4 years. I honest can't see any reason to ask former top level racers like CA or Graham Bell to take the Eurotest. It is an insult.

I believe BASI don't just accept all comers to their training, you have to have a certain standard. The French love tests and competitions because in theory they are not subjective, so you can't block someone because say, you don't like their skin colour or the fact they are, say, English. In practice the TT favours mountain residents with a race school background and the civil servants exams favour people with a good level of French which Mohammed in Seine St Denis or John from Sheffield is unlikely to acquire.
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 Ski the Net with snowHeads
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Its also a shame that people don't realise that ski instructing isn't just about teaching people to snowplough...
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