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BASI sued for £500 000

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@JamesHJ,


So if you say have been skiing over 20yrs it is your passion in life you just about got the other half to ski but mainly because you are going to get the kids skiing.

Would you rather have the kids taught by an instructor who makes the lessons fun with your kids pestering you about book again book again ! and they are hooked for life and family hols revolve around the white fluffy stuff. Or an instructor who has done a bit of racing or race training and though very excellent in demonstrations makes your kids bored fed up and wanting to get back and hit the pool. They never want to go again and so other half who was not that bothered wants family hols to be to the beach ?

The saying "Those who can teach" rings true as in those who can teach should teach but not every person has that ability it is a vocation a skill no different than the different skill that makes someone a great racer or astrophysicist.

@SkiPresto,

All that will achieve by having competence tests is drive people away from resorts enforcing it, drive people away from skiing. To talk about banning helmets are you crazy ? you seriously want more head injuries ?

A solution that for now is probably lost was resorts/tour ops etc offering a free guiding day with a couple of instructors who quietly give advice. pointers and possibly if interest shown a discounted lesson to show the benefits of continuing lessons.
When I am at CFe if talking to other skiers and they ask questions I will give them a couple of pointers or a drill or two to practice, discuss with them after a few runs and when they have seen the benefit of learning something new recommend they book lessons at CFe which many have done. Only when people see the advantage of lessons will they consider booking them, a good instructor will make the lesson fun, relaxed easy to understand and help the skier improve be it just a little bit or that eureka moment and they then come back for more.
ski holidays
 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
JamesHJ wrote:
There is a certain style of skiing which is only displayed by those who have done a bit of racing. I know who I would prefer to be teaching my kids, and it ain't some kid fresh from a GAP course!

Note that I am not necessarily saying that "a bit of racing"= the eurotest.


As far as I am aware my driving instructor had never competed in any type of motor racing. Nor was he an ex-Police Class 1 driver/instructor who could teach me Road Craft. However, he taught me the basics and I went on from there. I never did motor sport except the odd karting day or corporate event but I did do Road Craft type training on my bike and car. The latter taught by an ex-Met Police Instructor.

My 8 year old was taught mostly by BASI L1/L2 as he progressed. He also had lessons from an L3 who does race training (hello @BalernoStuToofy Grin) but that was when he had completed his 'levels'. He now does race training almost exclusively. Would I trust an L1, L2 or L3 who had never raced or coached racers to coach him? No, I would not. I have largely given up trying to coach him; especially on his race technique as I was never a racer. However, I do encourage him to tell me what he has been told to focus on and I'll work with him on that. When we were in Tignes recently he was following behind me and when we stopped he said; "Daddy, you need to trust your edges more!" Shocked Shocked Laughing Laughing That was me told.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@Gaza, LoL love that last comment snowHead snowHead snowHead snowHead


"The student becomes the master" Toofy Grin
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@SkiPresto,
Quote:

All good stuff however my point was that by selling skiing competence grading lessons to the general public, just like the driving test on the roads, there would be plenty of scope for all levels of instructor. There would be no need for eurotest for all instructors. There wouldn't be enough instructors.

The public would enjoy it, as they would be taught to ski competently on the increasing degrees of difficulty by instructors at increasing levels of qualification. Then they'd be competent to ski more and more of the mountain.

The public wouldn't enjoy it for a moment. If people really want to go and do their competence grading lessons they can already do that, and yet AFAIK very few people do. By insisting on doing these lessons all you would do is dissuade millions from skiing and shut down half the resorts in the alps. Personally I have not the slightest interest in being graded. I can already ski the areas of the mountain that I wish to ski. I don't go off piste or ski bumps, but I have zero desire to do so. You seem to miss the point that a large proprtion of people, probably the majority, see skiing as a leisure/holiday skiing and not a sport (competitive or otherwise). I'd love to spend more time skiing, but I have no burning desire to improve my skill level. It might be nice, but that's not what skiing is about for me. It's a fun way to spend time in the mountains with friends. Soaking up the sun (or rain) and eating and drinking.

If a skier is happy to slide inelegantly down a piste on their bum because it's too hard for them then that's their perogative.

You appear to be tackling this from the perspective of 'how can we generate more business for ski instructors'. That seems peculiar. If it is purely safety that you are concerned about, then by all means argue for more emphasis on the FIS rules but I doubt your suggestions would do anything to reduce the accident rate. Incidentally, is the accident rate unnacceptably high?
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@Gaza, dontcha just hate the little bugs? Laughing
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speed098 wrote:

Would you rather have the kids taught by an instructor who makes the lessons fun with your kids pestering you about book again book again ! and they are hooked for life and family hols revolve around the white fluffy stuff. Or an instructor who has done a bit of racing or race training and though very excellent in demonstrations makes your kids bored fed up and wanting to get back and hit the pool.

It's entirely possible for technical stuff to be fun. I've given up teaching now but taught various beginners and lowish intermediates ages 4-70, generally with a fairly technical approach often based on what I learned in my own race-training. Smiles and interest were almost always as a result of them achieving something they'd not done before, whether it was simply managing to stop in control on a slope, complete a run without stopping, or actually carve a turn. The biggest smiles from beginners were always the first time they snow-ploughed through a slalom course (most recently from my future-step-son-in-law, who had dreadful self-confidence problems after a poor initial experience a few years ago). The only complaints I got were from hopeless middle-aged ladies who wanted it all on a plate NOW!
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
GrahamN wrote:
... from my future-step-son-in-law,
Congratulations!

[/off-topic]
ski holidays
 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
GrahamN wrote:
The only complaints I got were from hopeless middle-aged ladies who wanted it all on a plate NOW!

An Italian instructor recently told me that his biggest problem was Russians who expected to be able buy skills as if they were buying lunch!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
rob@rar wrote:
GrahamN wrote:
... from my future-step-son-in-law,
Congratulations!

[/off-topic]


+1 although I assume you aren't talking about your intended in your last sentence wink [/quote]
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Ski the Net with snowHeads
rob@rar wrote:
GrahamN wrote:
... from my future-step-son-in-law,
Congratulations!

[/off-topic]
+1
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
speed098 wrote:
@JamesHJ,
Would you rather have the kids taught by an instructor who makes the lessons fun with your kids pestering you about book again book again ! and they are hooked for life and family hols revolve around the white fluffy stuff. Or an instructor who has done a bit of racing or race training and though very excellent in demonstrations makes your kids bored fed up and wanting to get back and hit the pool. .


Or alternatively, would you rather your kids be taught by an instructor who makes lessons fun with your kids pestering you to book again, or an instructor who has done a bit of racing or race training who is excellent in demonstrations and makes the lessons fun with your kids pestering you to book again?

You speak as if anyone who has become fully qualified suddenly loses all joy in life and makes every lesson a demonstration in technical details, disrgarding everything they have learnt instructing previously.
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@SkiRider, I don't think @speed098 was implying that, merely that that there are some instructors who are technically highly proficient, but not fun; and some who are less technically proficient (but good enough to help some or most recreational skiers) and also fun.

The subject of this thread is both highly technical proficient and lots of fun. I believe every single one of his clients (including many who are instructors themselves) would attest to that. But BASI won't give him an MoU despite him having the same qualifications as others, including board members, who do have an MoU (and whom he'd trounce in any race).
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
laundryman wrote:
@Gaza, dontcha just hate the little bugs? Laughing


I'm not at all jealous of his ability to carve better than me. Not one bit. No, really I'm not. I mean it. I really do mean it. Even though he loves to tell people he can carve better than me it still doesn't bother me.

ski holidays
 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
SkiRider wrote:
speed098 wrote:
@JamesHJ,
Would you rather have the kids taught by an instructor who makes the lessons fun with your kids pestering you about book again book again ! and they are hooked for life and family hols revolve around the white fluffy stuff. Or an instructor who has done a bit of racing or race training and though very excellent in demonstrations makes your kids bored fed up and wanting to get back and hit the pool. .


Or alternatively, would you rather your kids be taught by an instructor who makes lessons fun with your kids pestering you to book again, or an instructor who has done a bit of racing or race training who is excellent in demonstrations and makes the lessons fun with your kids pestering you to book again?

You speak as if anyone who has become fully qualified suddenly loses all joy in life and makes every lesson a demonstration in technical details, disrgarding everything they have learnt instructing previously.


+1
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
JamesHJ wrote:
SkiRider wrote:
speed098 wrote:
@JamesHJ,
Would you rather have the kids taught by an instructor who makes the lessons fun with your kids pestering you about book again book again ! and they are hooked for life and family hols revolve around the white fluffy stuff. Or an instructor who has done a bit of racing or race training and though very excellent in demonstrations makes your kids bored fed up and wanting to get back and hit the pool. .


Or alternatively, would you rather your kids be taught by an instructor who makes lessons fun with your kids pestering you to book again, or an instructor who has done a bit of racing or race training who is excellent in demonstrations and makes the lessons fun with your kids pestering you to book again?

You speak as if anyone who has become fully qualified suddenly loses all joy in life and makes every lesson a demonstration in technical details, disrgarding everything they have learnt instructing previously.


+1


Or maybe you two need to learn to understand what is being said.

As laundryman has said it was making the point a beginner through to at least high intermediate does not need an instructor who has had race training but do need an instructor who makes it fun no matter what their own skiing ability if qualified.
It is better at early stages to be safe and have fun because then they are more likely to continue. I have seen and worked with instructors who where very good skiers but just could not make a lesson fun, and others who though good skiers with nice carved turns but not able to be really dynamic in their skiing after giving a lesson hear adults and kids after that lesson with them bubbling over with enthusiasm, eager to book more lessons.

Lessons become more technical as skiers improved especially when being coached for racing but no reason they can not be fun and those delivering lessons like that should be highly prized and be in constant demand.

Instructing as I said is a vocation you either can or can not and this has no real bearing on your own personal skiing level.
ski holidays
 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
My experience using instructors :-
French esf.. Said "Bend your knees" Then did his best to chat up the 18 year old single girl the rest of the week.. Waste of time.
Italians, one in santa caterina, brilliant, skiing on one ski, backwards , made it fun, second had us doing all sorts in sauze, again great fun,
Canadian... Gave good tips and mde it fun.
English... Kad from liverpool, got me to buy my first boots, good laugh...
Conclusion... french chap was a eejit ...
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Valkyrie wrote:
@Gerry, Laughing Laughing Laughing

@Pruman, presumably if these are fakes and on the BASI Facebook page then BASI Secretary should see them and be able to denounce them as fakes immediately. Or failing that, maybe someone who is a BASI member should ask him to confirm that they're genuine.


I am the person who posted these on FaceBook, these are not fake, and believe me when i say there is a lot more of these to come, these letters/emails are just a teaser.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
BasiLeaks Puzzled
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Maybe Basi got hacked.
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Quote:

there is a lot more of these to come, these letters/emails are just a teaser


Go on then! Teasing is for children.
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 You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
Quote:

there is a lot more of these to come, these letters/emails are just a teaser


Go on then! Teasing is for children.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
under a new name wrote:
Quote:

there is a lot more of these to come, these letters/emails are just a teaser


Go on then! Teasing is for children.


Yeah, just put them all up and be done with it.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
GrahamN wrote:
The only complaints I got were from hopeless middle-aged ladies who wanted it all on a plate NOW!


Know the type, sadly. There needs to be some kind of device you can strap such creatures into that then slaps them around the face a number of times. Smile
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@SkiPresto,
Quote:

The roads are many times more dangerous than the pistes, but nobody is suggesting car users wear helmets.

Maybe not car drivers, but see how far you get without a helmet on a bike!

Surely at least part of the point is that ESF is arguing the Eurotest is necessary to prove competence. The Austrians, Swiss, Americans, Canadians and Italians don't see the need. Who wins all the World Cup races?
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BlubaBluba wrote:
Maybe Basi got hacked.

Well, if that was true, it would be a criminal offence, wouldn't it?
How did you come by these emails you say you have published?
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SkiPresto wrote:
BlubaBluba wrote:
Maybe Basi got hacked.

Well, if that was true, it would be a criminal offence, wouldn't it?
How did you come by these emails you say you have published?


So you are more upset about how these docs got into the public domain and the sight of the wider membership than the fact that they exist in the first place? #goodchapsvdespicablerotters
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
[quote="Dave of the Marmottes"]
SkiPresto wrote:
BlubaBluba wrote:
Maybe Basi got hacked.

Well, if that was true, it would be a criminal offence, wouldn't it?
How did you come by these emails you say you have published?


So you are more upset about how these docs got into the public domain and the sight of the wider membership than the fact that they exist in the first place? #goodchapsvdespicablerotters[/

No 😖
I was interested in finding out whether BASI had actually been broken into, computers hacked, documents stolen and my interests as a member perhaps compromised in the process.
Mr Blubbaetc says he has documents which he suggests may be stolen property, and says he has published them to the world.
The contents of the documents are of secondary interest in this. Its the methods and the thinking behind it that interests my latent psychologist.
Also
Can you explain the hashtag you published. I don't understand it.
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So now Malcolm Erskine, director of the long-established British Ski Academy, near Chamonix, faces a fine of €1,500 for infringing French legal requirements concerning the qualification of ski instructors. I would imagine that he is also a BASI member, I wonder if they will try the same trick with him ?
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
SkiPresto wrote:
Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
SkiPresto wrote:
BlubaBluba wrote:
Maybe Basi got hacked.

Well, if that was true, it would be a criminal offence, wouldn't it?
How did you come by these emails you say you have published?


So you are more upset about how these docs got into the public domain and the sight of the wider membership than the fact that they exist in the first place? #goodchapsvdespicablerotters


No 😖


Right.

But then you say:

Quote:
The contents of the documents are of secondary interest in this. Its the methods and the thinking behind it that interests my latent psychologist.


I don't quite see how the fact they exist in the first place can be less interesting than the method by which they came into the public domain?
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@gerry wrote
Quote:
I don't quite see how the fact they exist in the first place can be less interesting than the method by which they came into the public domain?

I want to know if criminality is involved.
Perish the thought!
Quite clearly:
If people commit crimes they need to be convicted and punished!
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
SkiPresto wrote:
@gerry wrote
Quote:
I don't quite see how the fact they exist in the first place can be less interesting than the method by which they came into the public domain?

I want to know if criminality is involved.
Perish the thought!
If people commit crimes they need to be convicted and punished!


Whistle blowing though.



Probably left in a bin in a park, if all this is running true to form.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
D G Orf wrote:
So now Malcolm Erskine, director of the long-established British Ski Academy, near Chamonix, faces a fine of €1,500 for infringing French legal requirements concerning the qualification of ski instructors. I would imagine that he is also a BASI member, I wonder if they will try the same trick with him ?

Malcolm is an APC2 race coach, he doesn't need to be a member of BASI.

BSA are employing mostly North American coaches this year, maybe some work permits are missing.

If you look at the history of BSA, the location was suggested by the current Technical Director of the French Ski Federation, I don't get the feeling that Les Houches want to close it down either.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
rjs wrote:
BSA are employing mostly North American coaches this year, maybe some work permits are missing.


If that is indeed the case then I wouldn't have too much of an issue with the french prosecuting. It is no different to an Indian restaurant in the UK bringing over staff visitor/holiday visas and then employing them. However, if it is the usual, don't have MOU/Euro Test then it is shameful protectionism again.
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You guys really do make me laugh, none of these docs are stolen from BASI and all your secrets within BASI i'm sure are very safe, but i wouldn't trust anyone that works there.

At the appropriate juncture i will post the rest, but for the time being shouldn't the issue be the removal of the BASI secretary for an absolutely deplorable act of mistrust.

We have a tough enough battle going on with the French trying to implement changes that will benefit 95% of the BASI membership, without having to fight our own association in the process, BASI should be backing it's members for working rights not trying to stop them.
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@BlubaBluba,

Well I don't know how how many times it needs to be said re calling for an EGM and pushing vote's of no confidence and bringing the association into disrepute. The first removes these board members, the second could very well see them thrown out and banned from being BASI members ever again, though suspension would be the more prudent option for now.
Even if the wrangled their way out of the bringing the association into disrepute for now, the no confidence would have to stand due to their conduct in removing SB at the AGM.
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@speed098, I think an EGM can wait for court cases to finish. The issue now of removing SB at the AGM is strange to look back upon: there was a stand off between the board and the members in the room (who sensed injustice) and the members won that round. The good will win again.

Has anyone ever considered that these letters were handed over freely?
The letters that @BlubaBluba, has published relate to the case that SB had settle out of court by BASI with a full apology. They are historic but clearly show that certain people were conspiring.
The crime the BASI secretary has committed is mainly against the English language.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
BlubaBluba wrote:
You guys really do make me laugh, none of these docs are stolen from BASI and all your secrets within BASI i'm sure are very safe, but i wouldn't trust anyone that works there.

At the appropriate juncture i will post the rest, but for the time being shouldn't the issue be the removal of the BASI secretary for an absolutely deplorable act of mistrust.


If I may repeat my earlier question: Where did you get these internal BASI emails you say were not stolen from BASI?
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
@Dunk,

I think holding an EGM and ousting these people if/when BASI loose in court could help negate costs. A judge will always look to see if there is remorse or will to change and at least suspending these people would go a long way to show this.

But ultimately it is down to the members to decide.
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@SkiPresto, I refer you to the above
Quote:

Has anyone ever considered that these letters were handed over freely?
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Dunk wrote:
@SkiPresto, I refer you to the above
Quote:

Has anyone ever considered that these letters were handed over freely?

"Handed over freely"? By whom? The BASI board?
Or maybe you think the sender or one of the two addressees of the email in question released company emails to BlubaBluba?
Interesting.
You'll need to talk me through this.
As far as I'm concerned, they're company confidential and "handing them over freely" is the same as "stealing" and whoever was the recipient is "receiving stolen property".
Or maybe you know more than you are letting on 😉
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