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BASI sued for £500 000

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
SkiPresto wrote:
We'd still have to find a new home that would accept our modules.
Didn't you provide one answer to that question earlier? And as Gaza said, undoubtedly a new association would be formed which I'm sure would recognise fully existing qualifications and courses passed.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
rob@rar wrote:
@speed098, members' liability is either zero or it is limited to £1.


Yes I know. My fault I was addressing the financial issue more at skiprestos comment re BASI going bust, thus members potentially could loose out from courses paid for etc if these qualifications are not taken over by a new body, or if the insurers find a way out due to the conduct ie conflict of interest the board potentially have exhibited.. It may well be in that worst scenario that the board find they are liable to a class action lawsuit.

I just wish this could be sorted before the court date.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
rob@rar wrote:
SkiPresto wrote:
But the underwriters may well find that there are grounds not to pay up.
In which case, why are the Board fighting this legal action?


I only see really two potential grounds for the insurers not to pay up in full if/when BASI loose the case.

1. The BASI board ignore legal instruction given by the insurers ( example insurers say settle and board say no we fight our day in court ).

2. The insurers find a loophole due to professional misconduct potentially instigated due to a conflict of interest ( all the more reason to remove those involved sooner rather than later ).
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@Gaza, except Hearts were not liquidated, they entered then exited administration as the same company and were punished as per the then SPL rules similar to the old receivership that Hibs entered/ exited in the 1990's and the same as Motherwell, Dundee and Livingstone later, unlike Rangers who were liquidated and are a completely new company that needed the rules to be ignored to enable them to enter the bottom tear of the then SFL. Sorry for the thread drift and Scottish Football discussion chaps but lets get our facts correct.

As an uninformed observer who has read this thread over the year, I cannot believe how badly managed this event has been. It is a complete PR disaster from start to finish. If the quoted emails above are true along with the alleged conflict of interest, then I am glad I am not an instructor relying on this association to represent me. I imagine the ESF are blowing their nose at BASI as we speak and probably going to taunt them some more.

Disregarding this case completely, there is also a conflict of interest in BASI wearing a number of hats, how can they be the regulator, governing body and representative of Snowsport instructors all rolled in to one. Hopefully either a better organisation or an improved BASI evolves out of this mess in the future to help the current and future instructors.
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rob@rar wrote:
SkiPresto wrote:
But the underwriters may well find that there are grounds not to pay up.
In which case, why are the Board fighting this legal action?


Not sure I understand. "why is the Board fighting this legal action?" you ask...
Presumably the Association believes that it will:
1) Win outright
2) Lose, but settle for a much smaller sum out of court.
3) Lose, and be instructed to pay some sum that can be afforded
4) Lose big and hope the professional indemnity insurance pays up, and that the future premiums are affordable.
5) Hope that SB works out that he won't get costs if he wins - and bails out and goes away.
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@Gilberts Fridge, I was taking a bit of license to illustrate a point. Toofy Grin Toofy Grin

BASI are not the regulator or governing body. The latter is Snowsport Scotland, Snowsport England, etc. There is no 'regulator' for snowsports in the UK as it is not a regulated profession. There is nothing to stop anyone calling themselves a 'ski instructor' and selling their services. They might have an issue finding somewhere to work but that is a moot point.
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SkiPresto wrote:
rob@rar wrote:
SkiPresto wrote:
But the underwriters may well find that there are grounds not to pay up.
In which case, why are the Board fighting this legal action?


Not sure I understand. "why is the Board fighting this legal action?" you ask...
Presumably the Association believes that it will:
1) Win outright
2) Lose, but settle for a much smaller sum out of court.
3) Lose, and be instructed to pay some sum that can be afforded
4) Lose big and hope the professional indemnity insurance pays up, and that the future premiums are affordable.
5) Hope that SB works out that he won't get costs if he wins - and bails out and goes away.
In which case they will have (should have) given due consideration to the coverage of their liability insurance, so no need for cataclysmic social media posts about the existence of the association being under threat.
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After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
@Gaza Re @Gilberts Fridge Association Football comments: Did you play for Glasgow Rangers FC in a past life? Happy
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SkiPresto wrote:

Not sure I understand. "why is the Board fighting this legal action?" you ask...
Presumably the Association believes that it will:
1) Win outright
2) Lose, but settle for a much smaller sum out of court.
3) Lose, and be instructed to pay some sum that can be afforded
4) Lose big and hope the professional indemnity insurance pays up, and that the future premiums are affordable.
5) Hope that SB works out that he won't get costs if he wins - and bails out and goes away.


None of the above. Pretty much the only thing that will derail an insurance claim against a professional indemnity policy is late notification of a potential claim. I would assume, as they have said they are covered by insurance, that they notified their insurer early, the insurer has agreed its a valid claim, and from there the show is run by the insurer and their appointed legal team. Once the insurer is involved and orchestrating things, it means they are in until the bitter end unless the insured goes a bit off-piste and does something detrimental to the case without having agreed it.
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Switch over to CSIA. They do their qualifications in Andorra.
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@Pruman That sounds reassuringly positive. Thanks. I'm hoping for a good outcome, before too long.
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Quote:

unless the insured goes a bit off-piste and does something detrimental to the case without having agreed it


based on recent appearances, that's quite likely isn't it?
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Gilberts Fridge wrote:
Disregarding this case completely, there is also a conflict of interest in BASI wearing a number of hats, how can they be the regulator, governing body and representative of Snowsport instructors all rolled in to one.

Speaking from experience of quality systems, this to me sums up the root cause.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
So one of the central issues to this is that in the UK (and it is largely a UK issue given that regulation of employment is largely a matter reserved to the UK Government) has traditionally not regulated professions, this is an historic / cultural issue which has been common to governments of various complexions. There has been creeping regulation for example medicine, pharmacy, the law and branches of accountancy have long been regulated. Other regulation tends to be in response to events or circumstances. It was not long ago that we could all bodge the electrics of our houses, now we have to have a certified electrician to sign off our handy-work. However, you I and any Tom, Dick or Harriet can still call themselves a baker or bricklayer, with impunity – the results of my efforts in these areas are very similar. Traditionally trade bodies (which you can argue BASI is) have regulated occupations, this is supplemented by (professional liability) insurance. Insurance companies will in turn tend to rely on the membership of trade bodies to affirm an individual’s competence. The average consumer of services (ski instruction or bricklaying) will not seek evidence of professional liability insurance. In other countries you will need government approved qualifications before you can call yourself the aforementioned ‘Baker’ the German system is probably the most easy to understand in these circumstances.
The UK system by and large has stood us in good stead over the years, but causes problems when it comes up against different systems operated in other jurisdictions (think, imperial vs. metric, driving on the left rather than the right). It does largely account for such programmes as ‘Rogue Traders’, in other countries the subjects of such programmes would simply be the subject of the criminal law. As is the case (BASI aside) with Simon Butler, Le Ski, Silver Ski, SCGB etc. as far as the French are concerned. Whilst I might not agree with what has happened and the following is not really a fair analogy, but it is rather like me driving off the boat at Calais and continuing to drive on the left (obviously the most sensible way) and ignoring the consequences.
20 years ago a friend of mine used to be in charge of UK regulation of employment (she was the only person working on the topic). My friend said then she spent half her time on ski instructing (a subject she had no personal interest in) and half her time on the rest of the occupations. I doubt things have changed much!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@Ski lots, I was in Austria over New Year. The 2 local ski schools had clearly employed a bunch of Dutch "instructors" to cater for the Dutch beginner market. Frankly some of those "instructors" weren't that long out of skiing nappies themselves, I doubt if any of them were qualified, they just didn't look like they could ski too well and even I could see that their class management and demonstrations were all over the shop. I guess if someone has a uniform on we blindly accept they know what they are doing.

The other thing I noticed was that nobody on that nursery slope appeared to be having any fun - you remember fun? When I learned to ski shortly after the dinosaurs died out my outstanding memory was the hilarity, my Italian instructor was a hoot. It all seems to have got a bit clinical and serious.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Id be VERY surprised if the Dutch Ski instructors you refer to weren't qualified.
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I have myself been employed in a number of countries as an instructor, where strictly speaking it was illegal for that to occur, but where it suited the locals for that to happen. In one particular case that was because there was no history of British tourists in the area and the locals were keen to build a relationship. I was particularly nervous both because I had no knowledge of the ski area and I was aware of arrests in similar circumstances. I asked to see the local head of ESF for reassurance (though I hate to say it) he was a charming man, full of reassurance and bought myself and a colleague dinner and wine. After all business is business - the law can wait.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@Ski lots, yep, always follow the money.

@jafa, that's alarming.
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On the issue of ski instructor qualification: That's the nub of the issue.
There's a spectrum of qualification.
In France, you are only qualified at the top end.
In UK and NI, you can get a L1 qualification without too much effort.
The French system is exclusive. This would seem to keep pay levels high.
However, I would look at the total available market for ski instruction, and see that 90% of people on the slopes sure need a lesson, but never buy one.
I suggest that piste users should have to pass a competency test for each colour of slope. A bit like a driving test.
That would create a huge market for instruction.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@SkiPresto, thanks but no thanks. Punters don't exist to keep instructors in work and nobody wants to be continuously graded while on vacation.
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SkiPresto wrote:
On the issue of ski instructor qualification: That's the nub of the issue.
There's a spectrum of qualification.
In France, you are only qualified at the top end.
In UK and NI, you can get a L1 qualification without too much effort.
The French system is exclusive. This would seem to keep pay levels high.
However, I would look at the total available market for ski instruction, and see that 90% of people on the slopes sure need a lesson, but never buy one.
I suggest that piste users should have to pass a competency test for each colour of slope. A bit like a driving test.
That would create a huge market for instruction.


Sure but the public have already voted with their feet on that and decided that lessons aren't sufficiently fun/value for money for them to spend holiday time on. Making instruction mandatory would only likely divert people to countries where it wasn't.


The other side of the 90% coin is that 90% of the people taking lessons in no way need the attention of top qualified instructors - competent, congenial instructors with good communication skills and some empathy are probably what they need most.
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SkiPresto wrote:
On the issue of ski instructor qualification: That's the nub of the issue.
There's a spectrum of qualification.
In France, you are only qualified at the top end.
In UK and NI, you can get a L1 qualification without too much effort.
The French system is exclusive. This would seem to keep pay levels high.
However, I would look at the total available market for ski instruction, and see that 90% of people on the slopes sure need a lesson, but never buy one.
I suggest that piste users should have to pass a competency test for each colour of slope. A bit like a driving test.
That would create a huge market for instruction.


Sure but the public have already voted with their feet on that and decided that lessons aren't sufficiently fun/value for money for them to spend holiday time on. Making instruction mandatory would only likely divert people to countries where it wasn't.


The other side of the 90% coin is that 90% of the people taking lessons in no way need the attention of top qualified instructors - competent, congenial instructors with good communication skills and some empathy are probably what they need most.
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After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
SkiPresto wrote:
On the issue of ski instructor qualification: That's the nub of the issue.
There's a spectrum of qualification.
In France, you are only qualified at the top end.
In UK and NI, you can get a L1 qualification without too much effort.
The French system is exclusive. This would seem to keep pay levels high.
However, I would look at the total available market for ski instruction, and see that 90% of people on the slopes sure need a lesson, but never buy one.
I suggest that piste users should have to pass a competency test for each colour of slope. A bit like a driving test.
That would create a huge market for instruction.

And a much smaller market for lift tickets, equipment purchase and rental, restaurant meals, hotel accommodation, etc.

Ski lots is right that the fundamental basis of the clash is between the Anglo-Saxon and Continental attitudes to trade regulation (free-wheeling vs. tightly controlled). The European directive is the law which enshrines a compromise between these models to allow free movement on reasonable terms. The trouble is, that while it has been transcribed into French law, French administrative procedures have not actually been brought into line. This was exposed when SB and his instructors had some of their convictions overturned on appeal last year, with the rest suspended pending investigation of French officials in the Administrative Court. BASI has shamefully promulgated and tacitly endorsed the practices of the French administration, in effect taking the line of the French instructors' trade union, thus serving to limit the opportunities for most holders of BASI qualifications.
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stewart woodward wrote:
SkiPresto wrote:
So have you got your IASI membership application form handy? Happy I bet you know a few who have applied.


I have a few friends who are already members. I think you skied with one of them a few weeks ago?


Another IASI (+BASI) member here. I joined after doing a BASI course last spring with a trainer who also happens to be IASI head of training, so could see it as having at least some IASI training input.
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I've never summoned up the energy or the interest to read all 49 pages of this thread. I'm afraid I simply don't care enough about the issue. I do understand the basic principles of the case, but what I've never quite established is why SB and others don't just do the French test and get on with it.
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@foxtrotzulu, that's why you need to read the 49 pages!

@Pruman, 100's of people from the Netherlands do the Anwaerter every year.
There are Dutch companies dedicated to doing 'gap' courses.
When I did mine there were probably about 30% Dutch.
The qualification is available for any skier able to carve turns (short and long) who is 16 years and over.
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@flangesax, well, whatever exam they take, their clients weren't showing signs of enjoyment.
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@foxtrotzulu, SB has all the qualifications that, for example, his near contemporaries, the CEO and Secretary of BASI have to practise in France (indeed, those two practise in the same resort) and other BASI ISTDs. For reasons best known to themselves, the BASI powers-that-be have denied SB a rubber stamp (the MoU) which the EU has instituted to smooth the admin on mutual recognition. This is the subject of the court action, itself the subject of this thread, which comes to a head in March.

The French test (Eurotest) is set at a level designed for ex-racers who have been brought up in the mountains. There is no age allowance. British people have passed it, but it is beyond the capability of most BASI instructors, including many or most who meet every other criterion for the highest-level qualification. That has not stopped many spending years and thousands of pounds, and sustaining serious injuries in trying.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
foxtrotzulu wrote:
.... but what I've never quite established is why SB and others don't just do the French test and get on with it.


Quite simply many believe it to be a manifestly unfair test that is simple designed to keep the numbers of people qualified to teach in France as low as possible. In summary; to pass the test you have to be within X% of the fore-runners time. The fore runners are often ex-WC or Europa Cup racers. I believe Alain Baxter still fore runs for some Eurotests. So, you could be an excellent instructor; pass all your modules to obtain Level 4 but because you have never been a racer you would struggle with the Eurotest. Does the fact that you can't achieve a time through a GS course make you any less of an instructor?

In terms of teaching; expecting everyone in France to be at the highest level (even to teach first timer adults or kids) is like expecting every primary school teacher to be a Professor.
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Gaza wrote:
foxtrotzulu wrote:
.... but what I've never quite established is why SB and others don't just do the French test and get on with it.


Quite simply many believe it to be a manifestly unfair test that is simple designed to keep the numbers of people qualified to teach in France as low as possible. In summary; to pass the test you have to be within X% of the fore-runners time. The fore runners are often ex-WC or Europa Cup racers. I believe Alain Baxter still fore runs for some Eurotests. So, you could be an excellent instructor; pass all your modules to obtain Level 4 but because you have never been a racer you would struggle with the Eurotest. Does the fact that you can't achieve a time through a GS course make you any less of an instructor?

In terms of teaching; expecting everyone in France to be at the highest level (even to teach first timer adults or kids) is like expecting every primary school teacher to be a Professor.



You have to be within 18% for men and 20% for women of the ZERO FIS point racer ie the best. The 3 skiers who set the time are accepted as known elements ie their time can be percentaged to the zero fis skiers faster time so the starter does it in 110 seconds but from this time they know the zero fis point skier would do it in 100 seconds so mens' allowance would be 118 seconds or faster. Bit more to it than this but you should get the general idea.

The ET has ZERO to do with teaching the average or even good holiday skier but would be beneficial for coaching racers and instructors.
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Forgot to add that some have stated the French see this as the significant difference, but it can not be as it is clearly laid out this is what must be done if there is a significant difference and thus not! a significant difference in itself.
Experience can and should count as well which would mean that quite a few BASI 3 instructors should be able to work fully in France the same as BASI 4 can, if your face fits.
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All good stuff however my point was that by selling skiing competence grading lessons to the general public, just like the driving test on the roads, there would be plenty of scope for all levels of instructor. There would be no need for eurotest for all instructors. There wouldn't be enough instructors.

The public would enjoy it, as they would be taught to ski competently on the increasing degrees of difficulty by instructors at increasing levels of qualification. Then they'd be competent to ski more and more of the mountain.

The solution to skiing badly in 2016 is apparently to wear a helmet, body armour and carry on.
I would ban helmets in a resort and insist on qualified snowsport competence licences prior to being allowed on the slopes.
The roads are many times more dangerous than the pistes, but nobody is suggesting car users wear helmets.


Snowsport licences will never happen though, but the same argument could be put for and against driving licences, and nobody has a problem with those.
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SkiPresto wrote:
The solution to skiing badly in 2016 is apparently to wear a helmet, body armour and carry on.
I would ban helmets in a resort and insist on qualified snowsport competence licences prior to being allowed on the slopes.
The roads are many times more dangerous than the pistes, but nobody is suggesting car users wear helmets.


Snowsport licences will never happen though, but the same argument could be put for and against driving licences, and nobody has a problem with those.

I've long advocated scrapping driving tests and seat belts in favour of a nine-inch iron spike in the middle of the steering wheel. Skullie
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SkiPresto wrote:
All good stuff however my point was that by selling skiing competence grading lessons to the general public, just like the driving test on the roads, there would be plenty of scope for all levels of instructor. There would be no need for eurotest for all instructors. There wouldn't be enough instructors..



Sorry, epic thread drift, but is that really true? Isn't observation and copying pretty important for learning? There is a certain style of skiing which is only displayed by those who have done a bit of racing. I know who I would prefer to be teaching my kids, and it ain't some kid fresh from a GAP course!

Note that I am not necessarily saying that "a bit of racing"= the eurotest.
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@JamesHJ,
Quote:

I know who I would prefer to be teaching my kids, and it ain't some kid fresh from a GAP course!

That kid might have your kids enjoying themselves while doing drills and improving. How good are our kids? You don't have to be a racer to teach basic carving and line selection.
You remind me of the time I took my 4 year old (at the time) to Judo lessons. The coach was patient, he alternated mayhem with drills, the kids were rolling and learning basic movements. It was great. Then the woman seated next to started muttering that she''s going to take her son out of this class. Why? Because when she asked how many students has he coached up to national level, the coach wouldn't answer telling her instead that they have to see if the kid enjoys the class.(As an aside, they do have success in competitions, but I think it was not relevant to 4 year olds)
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Quote:

and it ain't some kid fresh from a GAP course!


That will limit your choices then.
Many instructors have a gap in their non-snow career to enjoy the achievement of getting qualified.
Many students who have been skiing since the year dot gain a ski instructor qualification during their little gap before going on to something degree related.
Many instructors have just got stuck in this gap and continue their training to the highest possible level.

Of course, if your kids are absolutely amazing and need race skills then they would need someone more (or correctly) qualified to train or coach them.
If your kids are complete beginners then they might not need a teacher who could ski quite as fast.
If your kids are 3 years old they might respond better to a young teacher whilst playing in the ski Kindergarten.
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SkiPresto wrote:
The solution to skiing badly in 2016 is apparently to wear a helmet, body armour and carry on.
I would ban helmets in a resort and insist on qualified snowsport competence licences prior to being allowed on the slopes.

As you say, the license thing will never work. However, re the rest, the fundamental problem with the media image of skiing/boarding now is that it is portrayed as dangerous - protective gear to the max, avalanches, machismo and celebrity accidents get all the column inches. In some places today you feel inadequate if you haven't got an air bag and a "down wiv da geezers from da 'hood" look. In the boom years the image was just plain fun. What I see is an industry that's slowly killing itself by promoting all the things that scare people while forgetting the fun. Instructors have a big role to play in getting the flavour right again - they need to stop being so serious and up themselves, they need training in delivering maximum fun (while not harming anyone obviously).
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Assessment is pointless - showing you can control yourself in under observed conditions is one thing, actively controlling yourself while out in 'the wild' is another. You'd need to implement some kind on internationally recognised license, which everyone would have to agree on, when this whole thread proves that the community can't even agree on standards of instructors, let alone punters. And a resort saying "Yes, this guy can ski safely" opens them up for all kinds of potential legal issues should you then go on to wipe out a ski-school of nuns carrying kittens in baskets. Better to invest in eyes on the ground who can pull up people acting like twunts on their dangerous skiing and issue on-the-spot fines as well as pulling passes.
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Quote:

If your kids are 3 years old they might respond better to a young teacher whilst playing in the ski Kindergarten.

Last year the mushette had a great time skiing with a girl who didn't look much older than her brother. You could really see the difference in her skiing after a 2 hour private as well.
Quote:

are absolutely amazing and need race skills

...she is in a race club, but not in need of really specialist coaching just yet wink
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SkiPresto wrote:


The solution to skiing badly in 2016 is apparently to wear a helmet, body armour and carry on.
I would ban helmets in a resort and insist on qualified snowsport competence licences prior to being allowed on the slopes.



I know you're being facetious but this is eerily close to what one imagines the official ESF market strategy might be.
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