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BASI sued for £500 000

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
irie wrote:
If SB wins his case next year how will BASI be able to raise the £500k+ SB is claiming?.


^ the court will decide the outcome of the case, and also (should BASI lose) if the sum of 500K is reasonable.

my guess is that this will eventually go to the EU courts - either via an appeal or directly.
so don't expect a result or conclusive end to the saga anytime soon.
will a UK court actually want to decide on the legality of a MOU stamp ?
.... which is basically a voluntary understanding between equivalent "competent bodies" from different member states.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@Haggis_Trap,

A UK court can and probably will look at the MoU. They will look at what criteria needs to be met for one to be issued under the agreement. They will look at examples qualifications of holders of MoU. Then they will ask SB can he provide evidence he meets both these. They will then ask BASI if they disagree dispute any or all of SB's evidence.
If no dispute BASI loose, if disputed court may. Lets say BASI dispute his right to a MoU they will have to say why, lets say in example one it is a time scale the court can look at said timescale and decide if it was reasonable or not ( remember BASI members working all over the world ) and make a decision. If say in example two it is on level of qualification SB can and will provide evidence of certain BASI members holding a MoU who qualified after him, a court in this case would most definitely find in SB's favour and quite possibly due to the position/involvement of said members deem it to be vindictive and peevish. Something BASI do not want to happen if they have any sense at all.
There may still be other points we do not know that the UK court may deem need to be sent to Europe for clarification this could take one of a few ways. They may directly themselves contact Europe for a clarification/a ruling, they may ask either party to do so ( to prove their argument/point ) or refer the whole case with their findings to date to Europe.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
davidof wrote:
If I were an insurer and BASI clearly failed to follow its own rules I don't think I'd be keen to pay out.


Insurers are never keen to pay out. But given BASI have been behaving in a demonstrably non business like manner up until now it would not surprise me if they do not have adequate insurance to cover them for the scale of the settlement which looks increasingly likely to be awarded against them.
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Standard professional liability insurance covers larger amount than this case deals with. Even my little business has cover that exceeds SB's claim.
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http://www.ski-jobs.co.uk/s-job-details_Ski_Instructors_Meg%C3%A8ve,_France_56439.aspx?qu=%3fscat%3d-1%26pro%3d-1%26loc%3d-1%26type%3d1%26con%3d1%26word%3d
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What makes me chuckle is that SB Ski only employs BASI instructors, so this should be seen as a clear route to market for up and coming BASI qualified instructors, and here we have a case of BASI trying to shut him down and thus reduce the number of opportunities available to their membership ... does that sound like an association working on behalf of its membership to anyone?
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His job ad says

Quote:

BASI Level 4 or equivalent instructor diploma


Is that BASI only?
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@olderscot, not entirley sure what you are asking but different organisations have different terms for their highest level qualifications. So, you may have qualified under the Italian or Austrian scheme at the highest level and so long as you have passed the ET you will get an MOU which is the equivalent of a BASI L4.
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Sorry for not being clear. This was just in response to @billy not a boy saying that SB only employs BASI instructors whereas SB's ad seems to imply otherwise.
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@olderscot, it seems that he used to employ only BASI instructors, and that's changed. @billy not a boy's point still stands.
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Sure. I have no problem with the point he's making and agree that BASI appear to be seriously dysfunctional. SB might not even have changed his employment policies and could just be making sure he doesn't fall foul of any discrimination rules or local politics that might apply. I just thought it interesting that for someone who apparently only employs BASI instructors that his recruitment ad was implying the opposite.
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Just to interject, I have been skiing with Simon Butler for 20 years, and he has often employed non-BASI instructors. I remember several New Zealanders / Canadians and more recently Europeans. I'm pretty sure he has never insisted on BASI - no idea where that thought came from.
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@snowscreamer, I know someone who was qualified through the Austrian system and applied for a job with SB ski four or five years ago; he was told then that they only employed people holding BASI qualifications.

Being a New Zealander or Canadian doesn't preclude one from holding BASI qualifications I guess.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Up until a couple of years ago SB's marketing stuff did state 'BASI qualified instructors', but I don't think that's the case anymore.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@billy not a boy, the instructors I referenced did go through their own national systems not BASI. It was probably over a decade ago however. The last couple of years I'm not sure and prior to that they had the same 7-8 British instructors for a number of years so not sure there was much recruitment going on.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
http://www.iasisnowsports.com/#!sssandiasi/dcxe7

A budding basi alternative!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
The body that trains and qualifies British instructors has admitted partial defeat in its long-running dispute with a member and his company. UPDATED

It faces financial penalties of £500,000

It may have serious consequences for its future and is potentially one of the most severe crises to affect the British Association of Snowsports Instructors, BASI, in its 53-year history.

On Thursday October 1st a court case was scheduled in the Court of Sessions in Edinburgh brought by a long-time member, Simon Butler.

It concerned his expulsion from the organisation in November 2014 at a meeting in London over allegations that he, and his company in Megeve, operated illegally with incorrectly qualified instructors; we reported on it at time.

His membership has already been re-instated after he went to court over the matter; see here for further details.

Mr Butler chose to take the matter to court and BASI says he could have persued other internal disciplinary channels.

At the 11th hour this week BASI admitted it was wrong to expel him in the way it did and has agreed formally to re-instate him and to pay all his legal costs in relation to the matter.

BASI was accused of dealing with the matter before due legal process in France was concluded and others accused it of having a vendetta against him.

On a technical matter it was also raised whether the Board of BASI could have such a meeting in London when it is a Scottish-registered company.

Here at PlanetSKI we understand the legal costs so far run into tens of thousands of pounds.

The Association has liability insurance.

Some BASI members that we have spoken to are deeply concerned about the awarded costs and what it may mean for subscription levels and the already large expenses to become an instructor.

Others point out the finacial position of the association may be covered, but its reputation and standing within the snowsports community cannot be covered by insurance.

Mr Butler is also in dispute with the French authorities and has been found guilty in the country's courts.

He is appealing and claims some initial success.

A further court case in Scotland where Mr Butler claims £500,000 in lost earnings for himself and his company has been now scheduled for November 18th in the Court of Sessions in Edinburgh.

It will last for a day though we expect legal negotiations in advance and a potential out-of-court settlement could be made.

BASI is expected to contest all his claims.

It has issued the following statement.

"BASI has now revoked its decision of 1 November 2014 to terminate Simon Butler's membership. This decision was made on the basis of legal advice obtained.

Accordingly Simon remains a member of BASI. As a consequence of this decision the court action raised by Simon (in terms of which he sought suspension and interdict) has been dismissed.

The action of judicial review raised by Simon Butler will now have a first hearing on 18 November 2015.

BASI are maintaining their defence to this action."

The Association has claimed in the past that in its dispute with Mr Butler it is simply following French law and maintaining instruction standards for the good of all BASI members and the paying clients.

However if Mr Butler wins the November court case the very future of BASI may be thrown into doubt as it may face serious financial penalties and further consequences.

There are developing plans for another body, run by former BASI board members and an ex-BASI trainer, to offer ski and snowboard qualifications.

The group has already met government officials this year to discuss recognition and validation.

Another body, the Irish Association of Snowsports Instructors, claims that some disillusioned BASI members are joining its group.

PlanetSKI will be following the story over the next few days.

We will be speaking to interested parties and will be updating and reporting back on developments.

"I am delighted to be vindicated in the first stage of the court case and that BASI has re-instated my membership voluntarily and agreed to pay all my legal costs. I am very confident that I will win the next stage of the case that leaves the people that run BASI to answer many questions to its members," said Simon Butler to PlanetSKI.

Simon ButlerSimon Butler
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jbob wrote:
http://www.iasisnowsports.com/#!sssandiasi/dcxe7

A budding basi alternative!


Been around quite a while now, and the book parallel Dreams is worth reading.
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Surely an Irish association cannot be regarded as an alternative to a British one. A peer association maybe but not an alternative. We're can't be suggesting there should be no British association and that we should have to rely on an Irish one. I'm not knocking the Irish bunch but just saying that we should have our own British one and if BASI is not up to the job then a new British one should be formed which is what @nevis1003 seems to be suggesting towards the end of his post.
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The home nation governing bodies have now split from BASI (see SSS etc sites) and are running their own instructor qualifications courses in conjunction with IASI, and BASI are no longer participating in the jointly developed coaching pathway (several modules are currently required for BASI quals). This split seemingly driven in part by UK snowsport resort requirements. Not clear what exactly is going on or the direction of travel (strategy?!), but looks like a lesser role in UK snowsports for BASI ...
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This is good news for those in the home nations that want to become professional instructors without having to go to Tux or Zermatt.

BASI make money from the seasonnaires "doing their BASI" but with no real intent to teach. From my L2 group, 8 out of the 10 of us were just doing their BASI before going to Uni. BASI may make nice money from this but they turn out young Instructors who are either not interested in a career in teaching or are not going to be mature enough to do it well.
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The home nations have had their own coaching scheme for decades. I'm not sure how the dates work but I'd have thought the SSE qualifications are as old as the BASI ones, and in the early days the same people were involved in both organisations.

Whats different with the arrangement between SSS and IASI is that the Scottish governing body has introduced a snow qualification at L2.

Are SSE and SSW party to the SSS ans IASI agreement ?
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"Are SSE and SSW party to the SSS and IASI agreement?"

Yes, according to the press releases.
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No the linkup is only Ireland and Scotland. So it means if you want to get to L2 you don't need to go to BASI in Tux or Zermatt or whatever. Those doing the SSS/IASI L2 will be genuinely interested in teaching ski-ing. Leave Hugo and india to "do their BASI, yah" with BASI.

Alternatively those wanting to get to L2 can do do it via CSIA in Andorra. No Hugos there.
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If BASI gets sued for £Toomuch it could close its doors on a Friday change names to:
British Association of Ski Instructors.
Together naturally with a new
British Union of Snow Board Instructors, and open up for business on the following Monday.
Mr Butler would get nothing, one would expect.
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@SkiPresto, I think you need TTT to explain the Law to you.
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Hi Stewart. Guid Ne''e'r tae ye.
1 Who is TTT?
2 What would happen if BASI loses (unlikely, and even if they do it'll be £50K not £500K) But say we did get sting for the £0.5M+ and they/we decide not to pay up, but instead just go bankrupt? Is that an option


Last edited by So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much on Mon 4-01-16 20:47; edited 1 time in total
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@SkiPresto, hasn't BASI said that they have insurance in place providing legal cover?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
rob@rar wrote:
@SkiPresto, hasn't BASI said that they have insurance in place providing legal cover?


You say "they". Do you mean "we"?
Of course there is public liability and professional indemnity insurance in place, but maybe it can be challenged by the insurer.
I simply make a "what if" question.
Is it all in a name?
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 Poster: A snowHead
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SkiPresto wrote:
Hi Stewart. Guid Ne''e'r tae ye.
1 Who is TTT?
2 What would happen if BASI loses (unlikely, and even if they do it'll be £50K not £500K) and they decide not to pay up, but instead just go bankrupt?


You can't just decide not to pay and go bankrupt, it's against company law. If they lose and have the assets to pay then they have to comply with the court order. No doubt as well that they would be insured and would no doubt make a claim against their policy, if it did cover them.


If they couldn't pay all the damages then administrators would be appointed and creditors ordered according to the Insolvency rules.

All that is completely dependent on how any court action goes. But you can't just decide not to pay something.
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@SkiPresto, I have no liability for any action against BASI, nor do you.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
rob@rar wrote:
I have no liability for any action against BASI, nor do you.


Rob I think you have a liability of £1 Puzzled
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stewart woodward wrote:
rob@rar wrote:
I have no liability for any action against BASI, nor do you.


Rob I think you have a liability of £1 Puzzled
I thought that was the case but a few years back I looked in to liability issues and it seemed that members did not have any liability. I might have reached the wrong conclusion, but worst case is a nominal amount. In any case, didn't BASI announce last year, in respect of the SB case, that they had insurance in place?
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rob@rar wrote:
In any case, didn't BASI announce last year, in respect of the SB case, that they had insurance in place?


BASI also stated that they were confident of winning the case for kicking out SB. They ended up apologising in Court for abusing his Human Right's Shocked Not sure how that would have gone down with the insurance company Puzzled


Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Mon 4-01-16 21:27; edited 1 time in total
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If basi lose it will hurt. With costs it could run to double. If they have adequate insurance then future premiums will rise substantially. If they haven't then they will need to pay from reserves, or liquidate assets. I can't imagine even given the judgement already evident they will have bet the farm on this. They haven't have they Shocked Shocked
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Re: life insurance. Do they pay out if you commit suicide?
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BergenBergen - not usually, most policies exclude death by "own hand"
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BergenBergen wrote:
Re: life insurance. Do they pay out if you commit suicide?


http://www.moneywise.co.uk/insurance/other-insurance/dont-fall-these-insurance-fairytales

Quote:
Life insurance won’t pay out if you commit suicide

False: Generally a life insurance policy will not pay out if the policyholder commits suicide in the first 12 months of the policy but it will pay out after that. This is so insurers can guard against clients insuring themselves to the hilt, then taking their lives to get their family out of financial difficulties.

However, in some cases suicide claims are turned down because there has been non-disclosure about the mental health of the insured and whether they have been receiving medical or psychiatric treatment.
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SkiPresto wrote:
If BASI gets sued for £Toomuch it could close its doors on a Friday change names to:
British Association of Ski Instructors.
Together naturally with a new
British Union of Snow Board Instructors, and open up for business on the following Monday.
Mr Butler would get nothing, one would expect.


Unless BASI board are complete and total idiots they will have insurance.

The insurers will be instructing/advising BASI what actions to contest and which to concede, the only way the insurers will get out of paying if BASI loose is either BASI board completely ignored them during this ongoing case, or they have a special clause that excludes payout if BASI board took action deliberately to further their own personal/business non BASI interests, ( not too likely but that is only my opinion, but I was right about SB and the unfair dismal from the beginning ).
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