 Poster: A snowHead
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| irie wrote: |
| If BASI directors are joint and several guarantors of BASI debts they'll be cacking it now. |
- It's a limited company.
- If you read their accounts they have enough cash reserves to afford to pay what they agreed to pay in the out of court settlement.
So they're not personally liable, and in any case they'd hardly be able to agree an out of court settlement which would consume more than their bank balance, which from their books is entirely adequate for the suggested damages.
That's a polite "no".
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@philwig,
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It's a limited company.
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Its a company limited by guarantee, and members liability limited to £1. That, however, is not apparent as BASI do not publish the MoA with the AoA as they are supposed to since the final implementation of the 2006 companies act in 2009.
The directors are insured. Presumably that insurance will cover all decisions including those potentially not made in accordance with the rules of the association. Future premiums could possibly rise.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@David Goldsmith,
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Stephen Burke, BASI's recent legal director and interim CEO is, in fact, praised in the recently-published annual report of the Association ...
Gareth Roberts, chairman, BASI wrote:
Andrew Lockerbie came into post in January 2015 as CEO. This followed a period of two years in which time Stephen Burke (Legal Director) acted as Interim CEO. It is generally acknowledged that Stephen made a very significant contribution to encouraging teamwork and positive approaches amongst office staff. I do not want to dwell unduly on the period of time before Stephen Burke’s start as ICEO. It is sufficient to say that BASI has moved on from that time, is learning from former mistakes and now aims to move forwards as positively as possible. Since January 2015 Andrew Lockerbie has hit the ground running and brought considerable drive and sound judgement to addressing many of the challenges and tasks facing BASI. I am pleased to report that Andrew has established very positive
working relations with many Members, office staff, Board Members, the Chair (acting as line manager) and many other stakeholders. Andrew has successfully completed two appraisals and reviews since his appointment in January. His knowledge, drive and passion for the Association has resulted in significant progress since January 2015 on a number of fronts.
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When a member of staff was asked how Stephen Burke was getting on the response was "Great. He buys the cakes." Exemplary teamwork and a positive approach.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
I do not want to dwell unduly on the period of time before Stephen Burke’s start as ICEO. It is sufficient to say that BASI has moved on from that time, is learning from former mistakes and now aims to move forwards as positively as possible.
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Do the members wish to dwell unduly on the time before Stephen Burke's start as ICEO? Or since? It would appear that learning from former mistakes doesn't include exams.
A good look under the carpet is required and some new brooms to sweep it clean.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
I do not want to dwell unduly on the period of time before Stephen Burke’s start as ICEO. It is sufficient to say that BASI has moved on from that time, is learning from former mistakes and now aims to move forwards as positively as possible.
Do the members wish to dwell unduly on the time before Stephen Burke's start as ICEO? Or since? It would appear that learning from former mistakes doesn't include exams.
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@jimd what does this even mean? What is he talking about? It is very mysterious language.
Yes, learning from mistakes is great. Best to only use that idea, if you don't continue to repeat them, all at other's expense.
1. So what situation is he referring to above?
2. Why did it take so long to realise they could not win in court on these points? (despite repeated friendly and concerned warnings that it was foolish)
3. Is this also to be put down to a 'lesson learned?' 'Now move on?'
4. How much did this particular learning point cost?
- All the legal fees are being paid - what is that amount?
- What is the potential amount still at stake in November?
5. How long is it be acceptable for an organisation (that impacts livelihoods) to claim it is just learning on the job, as if it was all a bit of work experience?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Oh well : I guess this is the biggest scandal to hit BASI since they incredibly expelled their own founding member Frith Finlayson in the early 1980s 
Frith created a fuss about the selection procedure for an interski trip to Japan being biased in favor of board members friends.
He was subsequently removed from the board by a contentious and long winded disciplinary procedure - but (I think...) later allowed back into the association.
History does record Frith Finlayson as a likable, but very stubborn character - who split BASI in two for many years....
"Plus ca change ?"
(french expression : used to express resigned acknowledgement of the fundamental immutability of human nature and institutions.)
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Thu 1-10-15 8:50; edited 2 times in total
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| pam w wrote: |
| I once swatted up about judicial review in England in a planning context. As I understand it the judicial review looks at the exercise of power by a public body (and also, in Scotland, a private one). |
I'm not sure this is a matter of being different in Scotland. Judicial review can apply to bodies performing regulatory functions whether part of government or not. Arguably BASI's role in deciding who is and is not worthy to teach skiing is a regulatory function. I'm not a lawyer but I did once manage to pass an exam on public law i.e. the judicial review process.
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| philwig wrote: |
| It's a limited company. |
That is irrelevant in relation to whether or not they have joint and several guarantees in effect with their bank.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Interested to note that BASI posted their statement on their Facebook page with the date 15th November 2015. Either they know something about the future we don't, or it could be another great example of the 'administrative errors' that got them into this whole pickle in the first place. You would think under the current climate of scrutiny, they'd be a bit more careful about what they post!
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"Plus ca change ?"
(french expression : used to express resigned acknowledgement of the fundamental immutability of human nature and institutions.)[/quote]
You can't beat Google.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
Oh well : I guess this is the biggest scandal to hit BASI since they incredibly expelled their own founding member Frith Finlayson in the early 1980s
Frith created a fuss about the selection procedure for an interski trip to Japan being biased in favor of board members friends.
He was subsequently removed from the board by a contentious and long winded disciplinary procedure - but (I think...) later allowed back into the association.
History does record Frith Finlayson as a likable, but very stubborn character - who split BASI in two for many years....
"Plus ca change ?"
(french expression : used to express resigned acknowledgement of the fundamental immutability of human nature and institutions.)
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That's a good story @haggis_trap thank you.
Not so sure about accepting this pointless waste of time and money with "resigned acknowledgement" though. Acknowledgement of resignations would be better.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| ... I guess this is the biggest scandal to hit BASI since they incredibly expelled their own founding member Frith Finlayson in the early 1980s ... |
Both things may qualify for the word "scandal", but other than the parallels you suggest I think they're quite different in kind.
If what's been alleged is correct then this is significantly more serious. Let's wait and see.
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BASI has released a slightly fuller statement:
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Given the media speculation and social media comment in the past 24 hours, BASI is taking this opportunity to update all Members on the status of the Court Actions taken by Mr Butler against the Association.
The first legal action against BASI was lodged shortly after November 2014 and relates to the decision to terminate Simon Butler's Membership of BASI.
BASI has now revoked its decision of 1 November 2014 to terminate Simon Butler’s membership. This decision was made on the basis of legal advice obtained. Accordingly, Simon remains a member of BASI. As a consequence of this decision the court action raised by Simon (in terms of which he sought suspension and interdict) has been dismissed.
The second action, a judicial review, was raised by Simon Butler against BASI earlier in 2015 is scheduled for a first hearing on 18 November 2015. BASI is maintaining its defence to this action.
Within BASI's Annual Report for 2015, there is a statement in the Financial Accounts (page 67) provided by BASI's solicitors which further clarifies BASI's position with regard to this second court action.
“The Association is currently defending a court action brought against it by a member. This action incorporates a claim for damages. The Association have received advice from Senior Counsel that their defence to this action is well founded. Further the damages aspect of the claim, as presented as at the date these accounts are signed, appears arithmetically incorrect and further, is unsubstantiated and un-vouched.
Given the existence of this court action it would be inappropriate to comment on matters in detail but we can
reference the following aspects of this damages claim. The claim exceeds £500,000 and is in respect of loss of income from teaching. It is asserted the member’s loss started to accrue from February 2014 onwards (ie circa 18 months ago), that his average annual income for the 3 year period prior to February 2014 was £145,000, and that this dropped to £45,000 per year following February 2014. The Association are surprised as to the level of income it is claimed was being achieved prior to February 2014 and in any event the basis of calculation is not at all clear. “ Partner. AlexGarioch. Morisons LLP
Members should also note that BASI is protected by an insurance policy from claims such as this and therefore in a ‘worst case scenario’ this will not negatively affect BASI as an ongoing concern or the Membership financially.
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You know it makes sense.
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Loss of income is one thing, damages are another.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@rob@rar, does this sound like a message being sent that they would consider a lower settlement?
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Poster: A snowHead
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Amazing the first court case need not have happened if the board had taken notice if what the members were saying and what Simon offered at last years AGM. The were so entrenched in their opposition to him that their judgement was tainted.
No mention of what this intransigence has cost our organisation.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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if BASI's defence is "well-founded" there's no point questioning the damages being claimed, is there? Tactically unwise, I'd say - it looks defensive.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I wonder if any insurance policy will pay out if they lose given how the situation has been handled.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Steilhang wrote: |
| @rob@rar, does this sound like a message being sent that they would consider a lower settlement? |
Not sure if it's negotiating tactic with Butler. Perhaps more designed to appeal to BASI members about how unreasonable the case is that they are fighting.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| skimottaret wrote: |
I wonder if any insurance policy will pay out if they lose given how the situation has been handled. |
I doubt their insurance will cover them if they have been negligent.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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@rob@rar,
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Not sure if it's negotiating tactic with Butler. Perhaps more designed to appeal to BASI members about how unreasonable the case is that they are fighting.
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I wonder if the fact that his inability to teach had an impact on the turnover of his hotels relating to his teaching. Perhaps the BASI limited need that clarification if "is not at all clear".
The reference "The Association are surprised..." is interesting considering it is the company known as the British Association of Snowsports Instructors Ltd(the BASI Ltd) that is in the dock. It would appear from comments here and elsewhere that the Association members are not surprised at all.The members Association as it was then considered disappeared in 2005 when the BASI Ltd was incorporated. Perhaps it is time that the members got a grip of their association rather than the business it has become under the "guidance" of those making the decisions that are leading the BASI Ltd into the current situations. Perhaps a new British Professional Snowsport Instructors Association is required to make a fresh start.
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@irie, exactly.... If found guilty it wouldn't be too difficult for an insurer to show that they don't follow any reasonable due process and were negligent. Good luck getting an insurer to cover any payout...
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| irie wrote: |
| skimottaret wrote: |
I wonder if any insurance policy will pay out if they lose given how the situation has been handled. |
I doubt their insurance will cover them if they have been negligent. |
Before making public statements like this you would assume that BASI have discussed with their insurers if they are covered. However, given the track record in this saga that would be a big assumption to make.
There are various permutations how this could pan out. One scenario would be that if the insurers do have to pay out they could go after individuals if they suspect they have acted outwith their remit/negligently. It then gets complicated as the directors may have their own directors liability insurance.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Not particularly relevant but TTT is reading this thread i believe, but is obviously not up to responding.
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.. I guess it's a sad time for her, as she adjusts to the reality of truth, justice, and all that nice stuff.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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More than likely after all her previous blabbing that somehow she 'was in the know' wink wink she will have been instructed to keep her mouth shut in case it prejudices the case.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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The court has not yet decided, remember, whether BASI were wrong about the MOU. Too much hubris might not be a good idea.
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If it comes to it and BASIs insurer pays out, their next premium might increase a tad. There's no such thing as a free lunch.
Last edited by So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much  on Thu 1-10-15 21:18; edited 1 time in total
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You know it makes sense.
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I note that once again BASI's admin costs are apparently greater than their income, makes you wonder what kind of admin they have in the circumstances
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Depends what is classified as "admin" doesn't it?
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Poster: A snowHead
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| irie wrote: |
| Depends what is classified as "admin" doesn't it? |
Business Class flights to Argentina and hotels for Interski will be pricey.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Thu 1-10-15 21:52; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Planet Ski commenting that alternate organisations may be in the offing.
http://www.planetski.eu/news/7276
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Thu 1-10-15 22:01; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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http://www.planetski.eu/news/7276
"At the moment, BASI are still saying that even though Simon has the highest BASI qualification possible (which is the Level 4 ISTD) he's not entitled to his MOU which allows him to work in France - despite others on the BASI board being in the same position....and working in,... guess where? ........Megeve!!!"
If that is true then BASI are toast (imo).
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@irie, I thought in the meantime he got one from the Italians. What does he need BASI for then? Or am I just getting confused?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Steilhang, I understand BASI has written to the Italians demanding they revoke his MoU. Nice.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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@Steilhang,
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@irie, I thought in the meantime he got one from the Italians. What does he need BASI for then? Or am I just getting confused?
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I understand that perhaps his fight is not just for himself and that he is arguing that lower levels are permitted to instruct according to the EU regulation that apparently the French with BASI support and others are now trying to get changed as quick as they can before he gets any more succesfull outcomes.
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| laundryman wrote: |
| @Steilhang, I understand BASI has written to the Italians demanding they revoke his MoU. Nice. |
I do hope the Italians told them where to put their request.
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The email by BASI to the Italian Authorities was posted on FB.
From: [name redacted]@basi.org.uk>
Date: 28 July 2015 13:27:53 CEST
To: "ufficiosport@governo.it"
Cc: [9 cc addressees redacted]
Subject: RE: riconoscimento Butler BASI - UK
Dear Sir or Madam
Following advice given by [name redacted] (email below), I contact you with regard to the issuing of an MoU stamp by the Italian authorities to a BASI member, Mr Simon Butler.
I have attached a number of documents that outline the situation, which results in our (BASI) understanding that Mr. Simon Butler is not eligible for an MoU Stamp.
The MoU stamp entitles the holder to be recognised in all signatory countries.
However, that is not to impinge on the authority of any EU member state’s authority to recognise whatever qualification they wish to recognise.
Nevertheless, according to Article 2 within the Annex I of the MoU (attached MoU. EN + annexI.pdf):
Ski instructors who have passed the 'Eurotest' and have acquired in their Member State of origin safety-related competencies in accordance with the requirements of the 'Euro-Security' test as well as pedagogical competencies required for the diploma of highest qualification will receive a pilot professional card from their country of origin.
Thus, only the country of origin (where instructor has completed their training and assessment) is entitled to issue the MoU stamp.
It is BASI’s understanding that Mr. Butler has not completed any exams in Italy to be entitled to hold the Italian Maestro di Sci qualification.
It is BASI’s understanding that he has been accorded recognition of his BASI qualification as equivalent. This is distinctly different from his holding an actual Italian Maestro di Sci Italiano qualification.
If Italy wishes to recognise Mr Butler, we (BASI) fully respect and understand this is your right to accord him recognition.
But in being recognised in Italy, we understand that this does not mean he would have automatic recognition in other signatory states of the MoU. It is only if he holds an actual Italian qualification could Italy be in accordance with the MoU annex I and issue Mr. Butler an Italian MoU stamp.
It is our understanding that when Mr Butler applied to the Italian Authorities for recognition as equivalent to a Maestro di Sci Italiano, not all the facts were declared.
· Firstly; attached is a letter sent to Mr Butler from BASI explaining how he was issued an MoU stamp by BASI in error! As far as we are aware, the Italian authorities were not given a copy of this letter by Mr. Butler.
As the attached letter explains, Mr. Butler did not fulfil the criteria as laid out within the Annex 1 of the MoU. He has not completed the Eurotest, nor has he obtained any grandfather rights through any other bilateral agreement prior to 12/09/2012.
Mr Butler has not been issued the annual MoU stamp by BASI since 2012/13 due to his ineligibility. He is not in possession of a valid MoU sticker
· Secondly; attached is information about a French criminal court hearing in which Mr Butler has been found guilty of several infringements of French Law.(“Non member further info” and pdf Full minutes of August 31 judgement Bonneville). BASI is not aware of this information having been declared to the Italian authorities by Mr Butler.
Also attached is a record of his continuing history of incidents Mr Butler has been involved with in French law over at least a 10 year period (pdf BUTLER Simon récapulatif des procedures 2003 à 2013) supplied by the French Ski instructors trade union, the Syndicat National des Moniteurs de Ski Français [SNMSF]) BASI is not aware that this was declared when Mr. Butler applied to the Italian authorities for recognition of equivalence.
If any of this information about the processes that were followed in awarding Mr Butler recognition in Italy are incorrect, BASI would be most grateful for any corrections.
However if our information is correct, then we should humbly and respectfully request that you investigate this further so that the Italian reputation for excellence is not compromised.
We would nevertheless, request that you retract the issue of the MoU stamp.
Based on the information above and the intended requirements of the eventual “European Professional Card”, which will be the result of a Delegated Act (anticipated to come to fruition within the next 6/12 months), it our understanding that in the current situation for Mr Butler would not be entitled to recognition within other signatory states to the MoU as it currently stands.
Your help in this situation is most appreciated
Best regards
[author name redacted]
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| skimottaret wrote: |
The email by BASI to the Italian Authorities was posted on FB.
From: [name redacted]@basi.org.uk>
Date: 28 July 2015 13:27:53 CEST
To: "ufficiosport@governo.it"
Cc: [9 cc addressees redacted]
Subject: RE: riconoscimento Butler BASI - UK
Dear Sir or Madam
Following advice given by [name redacted] (email below), I contact you with regard to the issuing of an MoU stamp by the Italian authorities to a BASI member, Mr Simon Butler.
I have attached a number of documents that outline the situation, which results in our (BASI) understanding that Mr. Simon Butler is not eligible for an MoU Stamp.
The MoU stamp entitles the holder to be recognised in all signatory countries.
However, that is not to impinge on the authority of any EU member state’s authority to recognise whatever qualification they wish to recognise.
Nevertheless, according to Article 2 within the Annex I of the MoU (attached MoU. EN + annexI.pdf):
Ski instructors who have passed the 'Eurotest' and have acquired in their Member State of origin safety-related competencies in accordance with the requirements of the 'Euro-Security' test as well as pedagogical competencies required for the diploma of highest qualification will receive a pilot professional card from their country of origin.
Thus, only the country of origin (where instructor has completed their training and assessment) is entitled to issue the MoU stamp.
It is BASI’s understanding that Mr. Butler has not completed any exams in Italy to be entitled to hold the Italian Maestro di Sci qualification.
It is BASI’s understanding that he has been accorded recognition of his BASI qualification as equivalent. This is distinctly different from his holding an actual Italian Maestro di Sci Italiano qualification.
If Italy wishes to recognise Mr Butler, we (BASI) fully respect and understand this is your right to accord him recognition.
But in being recognised in Italy, we understand that this does not mean he would have automatic recognition in other signatory states of the MoU. It is only if he holds an actual Italian qualification could Italy be in accordance with the MoU annex I and issue Mr. Butler an Italian MoU stamp.
It is our understanding that when Mr Butler applied to the Italian Authorities for recognition as equivalent to a Maestro di Sci Italiano, not all the facts were declared.
· Firstly; attached is a letter sent to Mr Butler from BASI explaining how he was issued an MoU stamp by BASI in error! As far as we are aware, the Italian authorities were not given a copy of this letter by Mr. Butler.
As the attached letter explains, Mr. Butler did not fulfil the criteria as laid out within the Annex 1 of the MoU. He has not completed the Eurotest, nor has he obtained any grandfather rights through any other bilateral agreement prior to 12/09/2012.
Mr Butler has not been issued the annual MoU stamp by BASI since 2012/13 due to his ineligibility. He is not in possession of a valid MoU sticker
· Secondly; attached is information about a French criminal court hearing in which Mr Butler has been found guilty of several infringements of French Law.(“Non member further info” and pdf Full minutes of August 31 judgement Bonneville). BASI is not aware of this information having been declared to the Italian authorities by Mr Butler.
Also attached is a record of his continuing history of incidents Mr Butler has been involved with in French law over at least a 10 year period (pdf BUTLER Simon récapulatif des procedures 2003 à 2013) supplied by the French Ski instructors trade union, the Syndicat National des Moniteurs de Ski Français [SNMSF]) BASI is not aware that this was declared when Mr. Butler applied to the Italian authorities for recognition of equivalence.
If any of this information about the processes that were followed in awarding Mr Butler recognition in Italy are incorrect, BASI would be most grateful for any corrections.
However if our information is correct, then we should humbly and respectfully request that you investigate this further so that the Italian reputation for excellence is not compromised.
We would nevertheless, request that you retract the issue of the MoU stamp.
Based on the information above and the intended requirements of the eventual “European Professional Card”, which will be the result of a Delegated Act (anticipated to come to fruition within the next 6/12 months), it our understanding that in the current situation for Mr Butler would not be entitled to recognition within other signatory states to the MoU as it currently stands.
Your help in this situation is most appreciated
Best regards
[author name redacted] |
I've changed the text for that email to a more appropriate colour (brown).
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| pam w wrote: |
| The court has not yet decided, remember, whether BASI were wrong about the MOU. ... |
True, the two legal things appear entirely separate from what is public.
That one's over and done with, but it smells bad and hardly looks like a tactical victory. An impartial observer may wonder why a membership organisation is incorrectly expelling their members, rather than representing them.
It will be interesting to see if anything happens "on the steps of the court" before the next hearing.
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FAQ
