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BASI sued for £500 000

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billy not a boy wrote:


I understand what you are saying, but the court ruled that he was legally entitled to carry on employing those lower qualified instructors, it was not an assumption made by SB


But this assumes he was 'employing' them. If they were subcontactors at the time of the last ruling - fine.

If he changed to using 'self- employed' instructors since then, he may be on a dodgy footing.

He wouldn't have changed their status if the accountants hadn't said that this would make a difference. Employees usually have more rights and the employer more commitments. Making them self-employed would have removed some of the onus from SB. However, if this is what happened, there is a flip side to be debated.
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billy not a boy wrote:
Quote:

Did I read somewhere that he start to employ them as subcontractors therefore using stand alone 'unqualified' instructors?


Who said that the instructors were unqualified? All of SB's employees (read ski instructors) held BASI qualifications at the time of being employed by SB. From BASI L2 an instructor is qualified to instruct in a mountain environment, at L3 ISIA I believe they are also qualified to teach on non-pisted terrain within a marked boundary (or something like that). There is no question with regards to the instructors having been qualified.


I am not in any way saying they couldn't teach you to ski very well!

I said 'qualified' as, according to the French at this moment in time, they are not 'qualified' to teach in their own right...
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Quote:
Most recently he has employed Members as independent contractors on the basis of advice from his accountants.


... does indeed sound as though he recently changed the relationship between his company and the instructors it employs, and of course everyone immediately assumes some "loop-hole" is being taken advantage of when one mentions that it was on advice from an accountant; But BlubaBluba indicated that the instructors were always employed in the same manner.

I feel that the BASI statement was "cleverly" worded so as to imply wrongdoing on SB's part. Maybe the way that SB's company awards contracts to self employed ski instructors was advised by that company's accountants. So what? My business also takes advice from its accountants.
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Homey wrote:
I said 'qualified' as, according to the French at this moment in time, they are not 'qualified' to teach in their own right...


They are qualified, they have the qualifications. Each and every one of them is qualified to instruct skiing, in their own right. They do not hold French qualifications, they hold BASI qualifications. The SNMSF do not want to recognise those qualifications, but according to one interpretation of French and European law they must. That is what is being dealt with currently in France, and will be ruled upon by the administrative court ... it's not about being qualified, it's about recognising qualifications gained outside of the host nation. ... or am I just talking semantics here?
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Homey wrote:
BlubaBluba wrote:
@billy not a boy, we were employed on a self employed basis, exclusively contracted to Simon Butler Skiing.



Does this not actually agree with BASI then?

I am just a pretty novice skier who tends to lurk here - so neither affiliation or an axe to grind.

(If I could workout how to 'multi-quote' this would have a reference, but I think this is a quote within a post from from 5th may )



'...Mr Butler has confirmed in writing to the Association and verbally that he has recruited Level 2 and Level 3 Members to deliver lessons for his ski school operation in France. Most recently he has employed Members as independent contractors on the basis of advice from his accountants. Under current French law it is unlawful for Level 2 and Level 3 instructors to deliver lessons unless they are employed by a ski school established and recognised under French law as a Centre de Formation and meet the criteria for working in France under this arrangement. Mr Butler’s ski school does not have Centre de Formation status. Mr Butler has knowingly and continually placed other Level 2 and Level 3 Members of the Association in danger of prosecution for working illegally most recently this has culminated in the arrest and prosecution of some Members contracted by Mr Butler’s business to deliver snowsports instruction in France.

On this basis the Board exercised its discretion to remove Mr Butler with immediate effect as a Member of BASI. '



On the assumption that the above is correct???

Purely looking at this aspect; if, for example, ESF must employ all lower level instructors and are not allowed to use 'self-employed' lower level instructors within EU law - should Simon Butler?

I admit my experience of employees vs self-employed is not huge and mostly related to the UK 'IR35' distinctions. However, these distinctions tend not to be purely semantics as far as law and tax is concerned (I assume this would be the same in EU.)

It would appear to be for the EU to rule on this and I think BASI would have been much wiser to wait for their ruling and avoid rushing into this mess.



I guess my original point was more of a question - and probably more of an 'employment law' question' at that.

If the legal and tax status of the 'employee' / 'subcontractor' changes (in the UK), the legal and tax status of the employer changes too - even if they didn't realise the full reaching consequences when taking the advice.

I have no wish to be a 'devils advocate' here. I think BASI would probably like to go back in time and rerun a few days, but this aspect may well come down to details of mundane employment law.
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billy not a boy wrote:
Homey wrote:
I said 'qualified' as, according to the French at this moment in time, they are not 'qualified' to teach in their own right...


They are qualified, they have the qualifications. Each and every one of them is qualified to instruct skiing, in their own right. They do not hold French qualifications, they hold BASI qualifications. The SNMSF do not want to recognise those qualifications, but according to one interpretation of French and European law they must. That is what is being dealt with currently in France, and will be ruled upon by the administrative court ... it's not about being qualified, it's about recognising qualifications gained outside of the host nation. ... or am I just talking semantics here?


No, I was just commenting on the UK BASI débâcle, not the separate EU case
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I think it's the case that all ESF/ESI "employees" also work on a self-employed type of arrangement ... anyone who knows about this stuff care to chime in?
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billy not a boy wrote:
I think it's the case that all ESF/ESI "employees" also work on a self-employed type of arrangement ... anyone who knows about this stuff care to chime in?


Does that mean the ESF don't pay any employers' national insurance contribution? Seems strange that people turning up to the same place of work everyday and wearing company uniform can be classed as self employed.
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A Scottish court isn't going to decide who is allowed to teach in France. It's going to decide whether BASI, as a members' organisation, made decisions regarding SB which were timely, fair, free of conflict of interest and following the correct process.
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Gerry wrote:
billy not a boy wrote:
I think it's the case that all ESF/ESI "employees" also work on a self-employed type of arrangement ... anyone who knows about this stuff care to chime in?


Seems strange that people turning up to the same place of work everyday and wearing company uniform can be classed as self employed.


Not that strange. Many organisations use self employed contractors who wear a company uniform. I used DynoRod recently and he wore a DynoRod uniform but told me he was a contractor who did regular work for Dyno. Are SCGB Ambassadors all fully employed or are they self employed?
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@Gerry, maybe something to do with a possibilty that e.g. ESI instructors are on "no hours" contracts, typically less (and possibly a lot less) than 6 months?

I did a freelance catering gig when I was a kid and we always wore the same stuff, but completely self employed.
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dogwatch wrote:
A Scottish court isn't going to decide who is allowed to teach in France. It's going to decide whether BASI, as a members' organisation, made decisions regarding SB which were timely, fair, free of conflict of interest and following the correct process.


Has anyone suggested otherwise?
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Are we going to see a VW defence? What moi, COI, we only just heard about it and acted on the best interest of the association?
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billy not a boy wrote:
dogwatch wrote:
A Scottish court isn't going to decide who is allowed to teach in France. It's going to decide whether BASI, as a members' organisation, made decisions regarding SB which were timely, fair, free of conflict of interest and following the correct process.


Has anyone suggested otherwise?


The whole recent direction of this thread has gone back to legal situation in France. Pages of it.
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Oh well, fun is nearly over now.

BASI decides it was a bit silly after all and are bailing

TTT needs to come back Shocked
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Update via Facebook:

Quote:
Niall, our legal director has just phoned to confirm that BASI have now finally accepted that they were wrong to dismiss Simon from BASI membership and have also accepted that they will now have to pay all of Simon’s legal costs for having to raise the case in Scotland’s highest court, the Court of Session in Edinburgh.
It has also been confirmed that BASI have abandoned their forthcoming disciplinary hearing against Simon for teaching without a licence, which we believe had been fixed after complaints had been made by Megeve based BASI board members.
This now only leaves the matter of BASI’s refusal to issue Simon’s MOU to be decided by the Scottish Court.
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This is going to be an interesting thread for a little while.....
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update on BASI website.

"the office is currently experiencing high volumes of calls and emails. Due to staff sickness we are unable to respond to all calls and emails within our normal response time. Apologies for this."
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Haggis_Trap wrote:
^ because if *anyone* had their ISTD plus MOU plus Carte Pro they still couldn't employee lower levels in France (until French or EU court say otherwise).
for sure this topic is emotive : but lets be sure to present both sides of the argument ?
BASI don't come out of it looking great either.


But you continue to ignore the fact that EU law re work should allow a BASI with 10 ISTD's to open a training school for lower level instructors under the exact same conditions ESF run training schools. To not allow this I believe is against the EU ruling of equivalence.
Now yes at it stands SB has broken a French law. The question is though is that said French law in contradiction to EU law ? If it is then the French law is not worth the paper it is written on.

Laundryman

There is another point to add to your 3 listed previously.

4. Was the expulsion of SB from BASI conducted correctly when they did not give him the right to appear in front of them and also the method in communicating their decision. The court may find him guilty of most other parts but if they found in his favour on this part alone then BASI would be liable to pay compensation. ( I accept my knowledge is with the English system but I do not see the Scottish being too dissimilar ).
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@speed098, point 4
I can confirm because I was sitting next to him, that "a word in his ear" at the commencement of the AGM was probably not the best way to correctly tell him of his suspension from the organisation.
Most members in the room were more upset about the manner in which the board conducted the suspension than any reason for it.
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rob@rar wrote:
Update via Facebook:

Quote:
Niall, our legal director has just phoned to confirm that BASI have now finally accepted that they were wrong to dismiss Simon from BASI membership and have also accepted that they will now have to pay all of Simon’s legal costs for having to raise the case in Scotland’s highest court, the Court of Session in Edinburgh.
It has also been confirmed that BASI have abandoned their forthcoming disciplinary hearing against Simon for teaching without a licence, which we believe had been fixed after complaints had been made by Megeve based BASI board members.
This now only leaves the matter of BASI’s refusal to issue Simon’s MOU to be decided by the Scottish Court.


Interesting - they've backed down on everything else, but are still insisting they were right not to issue the MoU. Is that the one area where they feel they have a really strong case? Or is there just nothing they can do about that one (i.e. they can't actually issue it now, too late) and so have to go to court?
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rob@rar wrote:
Update via Facebook:

Quote:
Niall, our legal director has just phoned to confirm that BASI have now finally accepted that they were wrong to dismiss Simon from BASI membership and have also accepted that they will now have to pay all of Simon’s legal costs for having to raise the case in Scotland’s highest court, the Court of Session in Edinburgh.
It has also been confirmed that BASI have abandoned their forthcoming disciplinary hearing against Simon for teaching without a licence, which we believe had been fixed after complaints had been made by Megeve based BASI board members.
This now only leaves the matter of BASI’s refusal to issue Simon’s MOU to be decided by the Scottish Court.



Good news for SB and I hope for many BASI instructors but equally a very sad day in that it is now costing the BASI membership money when common sense could have prevailed months ago.
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Quote:

Interesting - they've backed down on everything else, but are still insisting they were right not to issue the MoU. Is that the one area where they feel they have a really strong case? Or is there just nothing they can do about the hotels and rugby tickets they've got booked over the next week while they are in town


FIFY Happy
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I believe the case on the remaining issue will not now be heard tomorrow and that it will be postponed until November.
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@laundryman, after the AGM which is disappointing.
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@ansta1, Laughing Laughing
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Stewart Woodward - if you disagree with something I said then perhaps best to reply here ?

Posting snide comment about something I wrote on here via facebook (a different forum) is somewhat poor form ?
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@Dunk, yes, it wouldn't surprise me if all discussion were shut down on the sub judice principle. That would be convenient.
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rob@rar wrote:
Update via Facebook:

Quote:
Niall, our legal director has just phoned to confirm that BASI have now finally accepted that they were wrong to dismiss Simon from BASI membership and have also accepted that they will now have to pay all of Simon’s legal costs for having to raise the case in Scotland’s highest court, the Court of Session in Edinburgh.
It has also been confirmed that BASI have abandoned their forthcoming disciplinary hearing against Simon for teaching without a licence, which we believe had been fixed after complaints had been made by Megeve based BASI board members.
This now only leaves the matter of BASI’s refusal to issue Simon’s MOU to be decided by the Scottish Court.


Thanks for breaking this news, rob. Obvious questions are ...

1. In the recent campaign that you fought to be elected as Alpine Director of BASI, my recollection is that you were non-committal on the question of Simon Butler's membership of the association and his right to teach skiing in France. In retrospect, do you believe that the board of directors were justified in their action of expelling him from membership? [this would obviously have been high on the agenda had you joined the board]

2. In personal terms, my understanding is that you yourself teach skiing in France with a grade 2 BASI membership (the approximate equivalent of the old grade 3 which I gained in 1975 and which - in that era - enabled me to teach in France). Things appear to have become tighter and tighter since the 1970s. Do you have any tips on how BASI members can teach in France with a grade 2 qualification?
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No option but to back down on 2/3 things - So how much £££ has been wasted on lawyers?
(So many people pleaded with Basi, warned them not to do this)
Still holding out on MOU, but, he was issued one previously?
Puzzled
Waste of time, effort and money.
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speed098 - Now yes at it stands SB has broken a French law.
How has he broken French Law? There is no law that says you can't work as an instructor in France etc. The civil servants have miss interpreted the law and connived with the union and BASI to make up rules to prohibit lower levels working. That is what the administrative court will decide!
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OK, so i think it's time for all the people against or criticising Simon Butler should really now start to take real notice of whats going on, THIS WAS POSTED ON FACEBOOK EARLIER.
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Niall, our legal director has just phoned to confirm that BASI have now finally accepted that they were wrong to dismiss Simon from BASI membership and have also accepted that they will now have to pay all of Simon’s legal costs for having to raise the case in Scotland’s highest court, the Court of Session in Edinburgh.
It has also been confirmed that BASI have abandoned their forthcoming disciplinary hearing against Simon for teaching without a licence, which we believe had been fixed after complaints had been made by Megeve based BASI board members.
This now only leaves the matter of BASI’s refusal to issue Simon’s MOU to be decided by the Scottish Court.
The date for this hearing is now the 18th November. At the moment, BASI are still saying that even though Simon has the highest BASI qualification possible (which is the Level 4 ISTD) he’s not entitled to his MOU which allows him to work in France – despite others on the BASI board being in the same position….and working in,… guess where? ……..Megeve!!!

THIS IS JUST THE BEGINNING...............
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BASI annual accounts show £14k for "legal challenges" in the year up to 31 May 2015. Betchya next year is 10x that figure minimum Skullie
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@skimottaret, plus any damages....
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@Dunk, indeedy but the legal costs will be there come what may and QC's cont come cheap
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Quote:

Interesting - they've backed down on everything else, but are still insisting they were right not to issue the MoU. Is that the one area where they feel they have a really strong case? Or is there just nothing they can do about that one (i.e. they can't actually issue it now, too late) and so have to go to court?


I suspect much like everything else they will wait until the very last minute and A do what they did today or B contest the case believing they have a solid legal footing, although with the Italians issuing Simon and MOU it appears they are bluffing.

Quote:

Stewart Woodward - if you disagree with something I said then perhaps best to reply here ?

Posting snide comment about something I wrote on here via facebook (a different forum) is somewhat poor form ?

@Haggis_Trap Once you put something on the public record under an anonymous or real name it is open to republication and scrutiny in any media form. Obviously you have seen the post and you are free to rebut it on Facebook under your own account.


Quote:

2. In personal terms, my understanding is that you yourself teach skiing in France with a grade 2 BASI membership (the approximate equivalent of the old grade 3 which I gained in 1975 and which - in that era - enabled me to teach in France). Things appear to have become tighter and tighter since the 1970s. Do you have any tips on how BASI members can teach in France with a grade 2 qualification?


Thats Easy @rob@rar, is working as a coach with a private club, it is a well publicized route to teach in France with L2/3 but is restricted by the amount of time you can teach. @Haggis_Trap,
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Fattes13 wrote:
@Haggis_Trap Once you put something on the public record under an anonymous or real name it is open to republication and scrutiny in any media form. Obviously you have seen the post and you are free to rebut it on Facebook under your own account.


For sure : however perhaps Stewart Woodward would have been wiser to reply (with quotes) here any comments he objected to ?
Then we could have had sensible discussion in proper context ?

I said before it seemed BASI were unwise to suspend Simon Butler - they should have stepped back and let him sort it out with the French.
But there are 2 sides to the story (only winners in the end will be lawyers).


Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Wed 30-09-15 15:18; edited 2 times in total
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Billy not a boy

Re: "I believe that there are "rules" as dictated by the SNMSF, but I don't believe there is anything written in law." It is included in an appendix to the Code de Sport and as such it may not be a Law, it certainly reads more like gudance for a French Ski School as it talks about only using the approved French Ski teaching system.

Skimottaret

Re: "I will be interested to see if any of the other 15 ISTD's who are not eligible to gain the Right of Establishment consider a similar action." I think you will find that there are more than 15 ISTD's who would wish to present a 'class' action on this - my estimate is just over 30. Which in the grand scheme of things isn't that many but at least it would redress the inconsistency which has enabled members who have the same qualification to be granted the MoU.

I am in no way comparing it to the number of members who were granted awards through the 'Satolas Agreement' nor am I questioning whether people who have the same qualification as Mr Butler (and have an MoU) should be entitled to deny the MoU to others.
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I don't read Facebook so if anybody objects to something I write on SHs they're wasting their breath commenting on FB.

The substantive BASI case for dismissing SB, let alone the shocking process, was always very flimsy - they seem to have some rubbish legal advisers to have pushed it this far.
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Somebody (or bodies) will surely have to resign?
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