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BASI sued for £500 000

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
^ ski instructors get paid 500K in one year ? c'mon that is a ludicrous sum, though it makes a good headline.
(assuming BASI were guilty....)
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Ah but of course it's not simply his loss of earnings as an instructor but his earnings running a ski school and providing accommodation in resort tot that lot up and £500,000 is a possible, Oh and I'd forgotten the cost of transferring last yeas business to Switzerland.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
£500k is an aggregate from the business.

There's a section in the accounts with "Contingent Liabilities" which mentions the risk, but doesn't put a monetary provision on it. Page 67 appears to suggest an upper limit to that liability.

If you look at their bank balance, you'll see that they have enough "in the bank" to cover that page 67 figure:
https://www.duedil.com/company/SC278963/the-british-association-of-snowsport-instructors-limited
(these are often pretty accurate as they are based on Companies House data)

That much all looks sensible and sane:
  • They're saying that they're being asked to pay too much
  • Their accounts show they can cover the costs
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^ BASI are being sued for "loss of earnings" as a result of Simon himself being unable to work.
the court will eventually decide, assuming BASI are guilty, if 500K is reasonable.

though surely the validity of Simons expulsion from BASI depends if he was legally allowed to work in France (or not?)
In which case don't expect a result anytime next week.
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@Haggis_Trap, Do you know that for a fact ? It could be that they are being sued for his personal loss of earnings as a ski instructor, loss of business earnings, reputationl loss, relocation expenses, etc etc... I would imagine that come what may either side won't back down and this weeks decision will be appealed, but that is pure speculation Wink
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^ So the total difference between "simons business with him personally teaching" vs "same business paying 1 legal ESF instructor" would be 500K ?
For one season ?

Either way BASIs liability in this surely depends if Simon should have been legally able to work in France (or not) ?
We don't the full answer to that yet - so how can the court make a decision if BASI were correct to suspend him or not ?
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£500k is an aggregate over the years mentioned. You have to read the text really, it's right there, page 67.
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^ yes : simons licence / MOU was only taken away very recently (2014)
.... after he already had been arrested in France by the French (not BASI)

assuming BASI are guilty then the court will decide if the 500K sum is reasonable (or not).
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They are being sued "Damages" this doesn't have to be purely historical but may potentiallyalso include loss of future earnings as well, I don't know as I haven't seen the court documents and I am not a lawyer. Perhaps you should refrain from making such statements...

His MoU wasn't taken away due to any French court action, BASI claim his MoU stamp was "issued in error" to Simon and 15 other ISTD's. Not as a result of any court action against him... I will be interested to see if any of the other 15 ISTD's who are not eligible to gain the Right of Establishment consider a similar action.
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^ how can BASI be liable for Simon Butler illegally employing lower level instructors whilst in France ?

remember : even with his MOU / carte pro this was not legal.
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@Haggis_Trap, how do you know that? The French courts have yet to decide.

Speculation on this week's schedule case seems pointless at this stage.
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@Haggis_Trap, again do you know if his case against BASI has anything to do with "illegally" employing anyone.. Im with Laundryman, lets see what transpires... Or you can continue to make things up and speculate on things you know nothing about...
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Quote:
how do you know that?


carte-pro / mou does not allow you to employ lower level instructors in France.
British ski schools can, as French law stands (and until EU say otherwise), only employee ISTDs.

None of this can be BASIs liability ?
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@Haggis_Trap, I repeat, the French courts have yet to decide on the legality (or otherwise) of the specific employment of the lower level instructors by Simon Butler. They and he were found guilty of various charges at the court of first instance at Bonneville. On appeal at Chambery, some of the convictions were overturned, and the rest suspended (that is, the individuals are currently not guilty), pending a review of the actions of the prefecture authorities by the administrative court. I could make some obvious remarks about BASI's behaviour in those circumstances, but they will probably be heard by a Scottish judge in short order, so there is no point.

Edit: C/judicial/administrative/


Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Tue 29-09-15 17:36; edited 1 time in total
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@skimottaret,
Quote:

Or you can continue to make things up and speculate on things you know nothing about...


'cmon, this is snowHeads, you know! wink I know somebody who's even given advice on a subject they know nothing about, posting speculation on here is a mere bagatelle in comparison. wink
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
laundryman wrote:
@Haggis_Trap, I repeat, the French courts have yet to decide on the legality (or otherwise) of the specific employment of the lower level instructors


so, as things stand, the law remains.
as you say - there has been no verdict on claims otherwise.
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@Haggis_Trap, the law stands, of course. One of the things it does is to lay down a process for treating declarations; and to stipulate that if the process is not followed the declarant is good to go, by default. Whether or not the process was followed is what the administrative court will decide, and what will determine the outcome of the charges that have not already been dismissed. All as I understand it. So, if this is the reason for SB having his MoU removed, the decision appears to be a bit previous. But BASI has not said that (as far as I know), but spoken of an unspecified administrative error in awarding it in the first place (I believe). I imagine that will be gone into in Edinburgh.

I am not a lawyer.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
^ Agree.

I do think BASI made an error (and exposed themselves) by removing his license.
Should have let the French courts deal with it.
However given that with a MOU / Carte Pro he wasn't allowed to employee lower levels I struggle to see BASI being liable for 500K over one season ?

My guess is that court case (vs BASI) can't be resolved until the issue of legality in France is confirmed.
Validity of Simon Butlers suspension from BASI very much depends if he was acting illegal in France (or not).
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@Haggis_Trap, there are three things for the court to decide (as I understand it)

(1) the rightness or wrongness of BASI cancelling SB's membership (since overturned at court by ex parte interdict)

(2) the rightness or wrongness of BASI not granting an MOU stamp

(3) in the event (2) was wrong, the financial loss incurred thereby.

They hinge on different things, I believe.
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I would like to chip in here if i may, as i'm the only one that actually worked for Simon Butler Skiing, what people seem to forget is the conflict of interest from the Basi board, these guys all work in Megeve and can see what a success this business was and wanted a piece of the action.
Simon Butler Skiing had to close down a 35 bedroom hotel due to his reputation being hammered for no reason, and everyone is saying that £500,000 is too much, then none of you live in the real world, it should be double that, he spent over 30 years building his business and then to see it shot to pieces in a blink of an eye, just place yourself in his shoes for one minute, what would you do?
Remember lots of decent instructors lost their careers over this, none of you can even begin to imagine what the last 2 years have been like for everyone involved.
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@BlubaBluba, you are I guess, the same as I am awaiting a decision from the court.

One of your most eloquent posts I might add. wink
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@Dunk, We are all waiting, it's been a long two years.
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laundryman wrote:
@Haggis_Trap, there are three things for the court to decide (as I understand it)

(1) the rightness or wrongness of BASI cancelling SB's membership (since overturned at court by ex parte interdict)

(2) the rightness or wrongness of BASI not granting an MOU stamp

(3) in the event (2) was wrong, the financial loss incurred thereby.

They hinge on different things, I believe.


Good concise summary.

Assume for a minute that BASI were guilty of 2 (tbc).
Simon Butler was still working in France (with no MOU) until he was arrested by the French in 2014.

Therefore my guess is that any losses attributed to BASIs actions, over one subsequent season, can be no where near 500K ?
Remember the MOU only allowed Simon Butler to work himself - it never did entitle him to employee lower level instructors.
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What is it Hagis about sb employing lower level instructors that grates with you? You've mentioned it several times in your last posts?

Remember that sb had a court rule in his favour in around 2006 saying that it had not been proven that there existed a significant difference between the training that his employees had received and that of the home nation. He was allowed by rule of court to continue running his business employing said lower level instructors.

Things only changed when sb had his mou removed in 2014.

That is my understanding, and the current case going through the administrative court is not to do with the employing of lower level instructors, but rather whether or not the correct procedures had been followed.
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^ because if *anyone* had their ISTD plus MOU plus Carte Pro they still couldn't employee lower levels in France (until French or EU court say otherwise).
for sure this topic is emotive : but lets be sure to present both sides of the argument ?
BASI don't come out of it looking great either.
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billy not a boy wrote:


Remember that sb had a court rule in his favour in around 2006 saying that it had not been proven that there existed a significant difference between the training that his employees had received and that of the home nation. He was allowed by rule of court to continue running his business employing said lower level instructors.


Was there a change in the 'employees' status ? Did I read somewhere that he start to employ them as subcontractors therefore using stand alone 'unqualified' instructors?
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Haggis_Trap wrote:
^ because if *anyone* had their ISTD plus MOU plus Carte Pro they still couldn't employee lower levels in France (until French or EU court say otherwise).
for sure this topic is emotive : but lets be sure to present both sides of the argument ?
BASI don't come out of it looking great either.


Homey wrote:
billy not a boy wrote:


Remember that sb had a court rule in his favour in around 2006 saying that it had not been proven that there existed a significant difference between the training that his employees had received and that of the home nation. He was allowed by rule of court to continue running his business employing said lower level instructors.




Hmmm ... until French or EU court say otherwise eh?
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Homey wrote:
Was there a change in the 'employees' status ? Did I read somewhere that he start to employ them as subcontractors therefore using stand alone 'unqualified' instructors?


Good question @Homey ... perhaps @BlubaBluba could answer that, but my understanding is that employee status/ means whatever was constant throughout ... ready to be corrected though if that understanding is incorrect.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@billy not a boy, we were employed on a self employed basis, exclusively contracted to Simon Butler Skiing.
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BlubaBluba wrote:
@billy not a boy, we were employed on a self employed basis, exclusively contracted to Simon Butler Skiing.



Does this not actually agree with BASI then?

I am just a pretty novice skier who tends to lurk here - so neither affiliation or an axe to grind.

(If I could workout how to 'multi-quote' this would have a reference, but I think this is a quote within a post from from 5th may )



'...Mr Butler has confirmed in writing to the Association and verbally that he has recruited Level 2 and Level 3 Members to deliver lessons for his ski school operation in France. Most recently he has employed Members as independent contractors on the basis of advice from his accountants. Under current French law it is unlawful for Level 2 and Level 3 instructors to deliver lessons unless they are employed by a ski school established and recognised under French law as a Centre de Formation and meet the criteria for working in France under this arrangement. Mr Butler’s ski school does not have Centre de Formation status. Mr Butler has knowingly and continually placed other Level 2 and Level 3 Members of the Association in danger of prosecution for working illegally most recently this has culminated in the arrest and prosecution of some Members contracted by Mr Butler’s business to deliver snowsports instruction in France.

On this basis the Board exercised its discretion to remove Mr Butler with immediate effect as a Member of BASI. '



On the assumption that the above is correct???

Purely looking at this aspect; if, for example, ESF must employ all lower level instructors and are not allowed to use 'self-employed' lower level instructors within EU law - should Simon Butler?

I admit my experience of employees vs self-employed is not huge and mostly related to the UK 'IR35' distinctions. However, these distinctions tend not to be purely semantics as far as law and tax is concerned (I assume this would be the same in EU.)

It would appear to be for the EU to rule on this and I think BASI would have been much wiser to wait for their ruling and avoid rushing into this mess.
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"Under current French law it is unlawful for Level 2 and Level 3 instructors to deliver lessons unless they are employed by a ski school established and recognised under French law"

This bit is under contention. As noted, SB had a previous court ruling (I'm not sure if this was French or EU) in his favour, citing the lack of significant difference shown between the training undertaken by SB employees, and those of the home nation (this was not to say that there IS no difference, only that no significant difference was shown to the court), and therefore he (SB) was legally entitled to continue employing those L2 and L3 instructors.

SB then went about his business unhindered for a number of years, only to have "his collar felt" subsequent to the BASI's removal of his MoU sticker entitlement.
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I do not believe there is any law in France which states that

Quote:

it is unlawful for Level 2 and Level 3 instructors to deliver lessons unless they are employed by a ski school established and recognised under French law as a Centre de Formation


I believe that there are "rules" as dictated by the SNMSF, but I don't believe there is anything written in law.

Quote:

ESF must employ all lower level instructors and are not allowed to use 'self-employed' lower level instructors within EU law


I also don't believe that this is law either ... though I'm still open to being shown the light if I'm walking around in the dark.
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Quote:
and therefore he (SB) was legally entitled to continue employing those L2 and L3 instructors.


^ the court will decide (eventually) if what you say is true - so there is no point arguing.
as you say it is currently" contention". Ski instruction is a legally regulated profession in France (unlike the UK).

I note use of word therefore which implies, to me, an assumption was made ?
.... AFAIK I don't think this assumption you make has yet been proven legally true in France ?
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No assumption @Haggis_Trap -at least as far as my understanding goes- that was the ruling of the court.

I'm not sure that the court would assume, so I assume your assumption comment was with regards to SB.
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billy not a boy wrote:


This bit is under contention. As noted, SB had a previous court ruling (I'm not sure if this was French or EU) in his favour, citing the lack of significant difference shown between the training undertaken by SB employees, and those of the home nation


This was the bit that caught my eye. If the courts are involved, the distinction between employed and self employed seems very important.

Subcontractors are not usually associated with ongoing training, monitoring and mentoring - which presumably is supposed to ensure public safety and value for money etc...
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^ @billy not a boy : You say that court ruled Simon Butler has "no difference in his training".
Plenty evidence suggests this may indeed be true.

The contentious assumption is that this, therefore, allowed him to employee L2 and L3s in France.
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Quote:

I admit my experience of employees vs self-employed is not huge and mostly related to the UK 'IR35' distinctions. However, these distinctions tend not to be purely semantics as far as law and tax is concerned (I assume this would be the same in EU.)

It would appear to be for the EU to rule on this and I think BASI would have been much wiser to wait for their ruling and avoid rushing into this mess.

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I don't know about employment laws for "international" companies with regards to the kinds of contracts etc. but I believe that SB's company is not a French registered business, perhaps some of this might be reliant upon that?
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Haggis_Trap wrote:
^ @billy not a boy : You say that court ruled Simon Butler has "no difference in his training".
Plenty evidence suggests this may indeed be true.

The contentious assumption is that this, therefore, allowed him to employee L2 and L3s in France.


I understand what you are saying, but the court ruled that he was legally entitled to carry on employing those lower qualified instructors, it was not an assumption made by SB (usual statement of how my understanding could be a distorted picture). I've not read the ruling proper, perhaps someone might know where that can be found?
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@Haggis_Trap, the French court, in 2006, found for SB _and_ his employees that no substantial difference was demonstrated (compared to French-trained people doing similar work).
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Quote:

Did I read somewhere that he start to employ them as subcontractors therefore using stand alone 'unqualified' instructors?


Who said that the instructors were unqualified? All of SB's employees (read ski instructors) held BASI qualifications at the time of being employed by SB. From BASI L2 an instructor is qualified to instruct in a mountain environment, at L3 ISIA I believe they are also qualified to teach on non-pisted terrain within a marked boundary (or something like that). There is no question with regards to the instructors having been qualified.
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