 Poster: A snowHead
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| rjs wrote: |
| billy not a boy, I would expect the old CAPA to be held as equivalent to the Eurotest in the same way that sufficiently low FIS points are. |
I understand the sentiment, however FIS points cannot be used in conjunction with the ISTD to warrant the awarding of the MOU stamp, the guidelines quite clearly state that it is the Euro Test, it does not state "The Euro Test or an equivalent"
If one is to assume an equivalent is permissible then that is interpreting the spirit of the guidelines, and not the word.
This is moot anyhow, because the guidelines also state that those holding the highest level qualification prior to 2012 are exempt from the ET requirement.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@billy not a boy, exactly, which brings us back to the question of why SB having had the highest level of qualification apparently from 1986 was not automatically granted an MOU ? (this of course applies to anyone else in a similar position)
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| D G Orf wrote: |
| The whole thing seems odd to me as an outsider, |
You shouldn't regard yourself as an outsider. If you pay for lessons, even if you don't pay for lessons because of the price, you are more than just an interested observer. This industry needs to learn that the centre of all things is the customer.
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Mon 17-08-15 9:27; edited 1 time in total
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To be solid in quoting the rules as justification for any complaint and subsequent remedial action compliance with rules is also a moral and in some cases a statutory must. Any ski association that doesn't comply with their own rules and statutory rules is on more than a slippery slope.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| D G Orf wrote: |
| @billy not a boy, exactly, which brings us back to the question of why SB having had the highest level of qualification apparently from 1986 was not automatically granted an MOU ? (this of course applies to anyone else in a similar position) |
Perhaps because he wanted to continue employing lower level instructors ?
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@Haggis_Trap, that wouldn't surprise me.
A French court in 2006 acquitted SB and his lower-qualified instructors and implicitly allowed him to continue with his business model, and they were unmolested until 2013. Their current status is that they have not been convicted of charges relating to 2014 (their initial convictions were overturned or suspended on appeal). Odd that BASI would regard offering employment opportunities to people holding its qualifications as a heinous crime, when it was previously not considered a crime in France and is currently before the French courts again, without having reached a conclusion. I wonder if there was a written rule that said that members doing that will not be granted an MoU and will be expelled from the association. I hope all will become clear in October before an open court in Edinburgh.
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@Haggis_Trap, you have deducted part of the reason, there must be others I'm sure.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Gaza,
The suspicion it seems among many is that the discovery of the "error" in the MoU that BASI had previously granted SB, was conveniently timed for the French to have a stronger case against him along the lines of he's employing lower level instructors illegally without EVEN being an ISTD himself.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| D G Orf wrote: |
| @billy not a boy, exactly, which brings us back to the question of why SB having had the highest level of qualification apparently from 1986 was not automatically granted an MOU ? (this of course applies to anyone else in a similar position) |
Perhaps because he wanted to continue employing lower level instructors ? |
Being given the MOU sticker has NOTHING to do with who you do or do not wish to employ. Passing on the MOU sticker is an ADMINISTRATIVE task, there is no decision making to be done; it is given to those who satisfy the criteria, BASI's function in this is as an administrator and nothing more.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
@Gaza,
The suspicion it seems among many is that the discovery of the "error" in the MoU that BASI had previously granted SB, was conveniently timed for the French to have a stronger case against him along the lines of he's employing lower level instructors illegally without EVEN being an ISTD himself. |
But he is an ISTD Dave, SB has posted images of his BASI licences on other forums in the past, and they clearly identify him as holding the BASI ISTD
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| billy not a boy wrote: |
| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
@Gaza,
The suspicion it seems among many is that the discovery of the "error" in the MoU that BASI had previously granted SB, was conveniently timed for the French to have a stronger case against him along the lines of he's employing lower level instructors illegally without EVEN being an ISTD himself. |
But he is an ISTD Dave, SB has posted images of his BASI licences on other forums in the past, and they clearly identify him as holding the BASI ISTD |
Yeah OK "equivalent" ISTD then. It's an example of frankly how ludicrous the whole thing is. Much as some would have us believe it ski instruction isn't brain surgery. BASI would have been in a far better position by doing everything in their power to support SB's personal right to work in France and accepting that if he chose to interpret the rules regarding employing other instructors differently from them it was a matter for the law and nothing to do with them.
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My thinking on the Italian job is that the Italian authority have looked at the guidelines for the issuing of the MOU and agreed that SB did indeed hold the highest level of qualification prior to the cut-off date, and therefore he is not required to pass the Euro Test in order to be given his sticker. SB must have taken some course as sanctioned by this Italian authority which then enabled them to issue him with said MOU sticker.
This is all assumption, but it plays out logically in my mind.
I was quite taken aback upon reading the email from BASI to the Italians (as noted, written in good old English), and I really don't understand how they feel that they are in any way positioned to tell another authority what they can and cannot do in terms of administration, when by their own admission they are quite sh*te at performing administrative tasks themselves.
SB has had at least two administrative errors applied to him as an individual, and I fail to believe that he is the only member in said position; the difference I think is that he has been rather tenacious and is adamant that he has been mistreated by the very association which is supposedly in place to protect and assist its members.
I don't know all of the details surrounding this affair, but from what I have seen (and it is quite a lot, and certainly a lot more than has been seen by TTT aka Waitrose) I am gob-smacked and find it all rather difficult to believe. If I read it in a fictional novel, I'd be saying how unrealistic it was and that there was a severe flaw in the plot!
Last edited by So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much  on Mon 17-08-15 18:22; edited 1 time in total
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You know it makes sense.
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| It's an example of frankly how ludicrous the whole thing is. |
Agreed 100%
| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| Much as some would have us believe it ski instruction isn't brain surgery. |
Again, agreed 100%. This is not to say that qualifications in instructing/coaching are worthless or puerile, it's just not brain surgery
| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| BASI would have been in a far better position by doing everything in their power to support SB's personal right to work in France and accepting that if he chose to interpret the rules regarding employing other instructors differently from them it was a matter for the law and nothing to do with them. |
And one last time, agreed 100%. Whom SB chooses to employ has NOTHING to do with BASI; except for the fact that they are clearly "in bed" with the SNMSF, and if the SNMSF disagree, then so do BASI.
It's the result of a bunch of spineless bottom displayers and cheek spreaders sitting on the board of BASI for far too long.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@Dave of the Marmottes, nail on head.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@billy not a boy, some of the decisions by the board standing up and representing British interests have been very good, (fiscally rewarding) for SOME of the members.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I suspect this will not come to court. A deal will be done. Far too many skeletons in the cupboard.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| jbob wrote: |
| I suspect this will not come to court. A deal will be done. Far too many skeletons in the cupboard. |
The original poor decision might have been resolved with a deal, and an apology, however, the additional attempts to further blacken the member with the latest escapades, and their timing, will no doubt have upped the stakes in this affair. The title figure to this post might be insufficient to cover the additional expenses incurred addressing the latest escapades. 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| jbob wrote: |
| I suspect this will not come to court. A deal will be done. Far too many skeletons in the cupboard. |
The great majority of civil cases are settled before they come to court. However SB seems to be a remarkably stubborn man (which you could take as good or bad). I have a feeling he wants his day in court.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@dogwatch, BASI has upped the ante recently (not just the Italian job). The BASI board and management have the luxury of risking other people's money. SB has nowhere to go but court: he's now fighting for his right to work at the only thing for which he is qualified. I think this will get to the steps of the courthouse at least, and probably inside.
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To use the Italian job phrase, I understand, the plaintiff offered to discuss at one stage, but that was either ignored, or refused.
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@Jimd, if you are right it may well influence the court, they don't like to have their time wasted, if the offer to negotiate was made by SB and rejected by BASI there's a good chance the court will take that into account, the fact that the first court ruling went against them should have given BASI cause to think about what they were doing, but apparently not, that BASI has now tried to influence their counterparts in Italy whilst they are waiting to come to court in the UK is alarming.
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| D G Orf wrote: |
| @Jimd, if you are right it may well influence the court, they don't like to have their time wasted, if the offer to negotiate was made by SB and rejected by BASI there's a good chance the court will take that into account, the fact that the first court ruling went against them should have given BASI cause to think about what they were doing, but apparently not, that BASI has now tried to influence their counterparts in Italy whilst they are waiting to come to court in the UK is alarming. |
..and not a little arrogant and foolish too.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
however FIS points cannot be used in conjunction with the ISTD to warrant the awarding of the MOU stamp, the guidelines quite clearly state that it is the Euro Test, it does not state "The Euro Test or an equivalent"
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sorry that is wrong info there, FIS points can gain you an exemption from taking the ET you need to have scored <100 male <85 female in the past five seasons. There are at least 25 BASI ISTDs with this exemption.
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| Quote: |
however FIS points cannot be used in conjunction with the ISTD to warrant the awarding of the MOU stamp, the guidelines quite clearly state that it is the Euro Test, it does not state "The Euro Test or an equivalent"
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sorry that is wrong info there, FIS points can gain you an exemption from taking the ET you need to have scored <100 male <85 female in the past five seasons. There are at least 25 BASI ISTDs with this exemption. |
I never said that FIS points cannot give exemption from the ET in order to gain an ISTD. What I said is that the MOU memorandum dictates that a stamp will only be issued to those holding the highest qualification (ie. ISTD) and having passed the Euro Test.
But again, if one is claiming that all that is required in order to be given the MOU sticker is the ISTD (which is incorrect) then SB should have been given the MOU because he holds ISTD. Further, if ANY of those at least 25 BASI ISTD without the ET have been given the sticker (especialy if they gained their ISTD post the 2012 cut-off date) then that puts BASI on a VERY sticky wicket in this regard.
This I guess is further evidence to indicate some kind of personal vendetta towards SB.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Sorry have to disagree. Currently, you are deemed to have "passed" the Eurotest if you have a FIS Points exemption or actually passed the test, this pass certificate plus all ISTD modules gets you an ISTD with MoU stamp. I know several ISTDs with FIS point exemptions (from the 25 ish I mentioned) and they carry the MoU stamp.
Not sure what point you are making with this. If you are arguing that the 15 or so old Grade 1's who were granted their ISTD's after the Grandfather rights date passed but subsequently never received their MoU (or in SB's case had it removed through an "admin" error) I agree that these people may they have been hard done by depending on individual circumstances.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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When SB wins his case with the irrefutable evidence he apparently has should all those who voted for his expulsion and executive staff who have pursued this vendetta be dismissed from their positions? Whats good for the goose etc etc.
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My point @skimottaret is that the MOU memorandum dictates that the sticker will only be issued to those holding the highest qualification (ie. ISTD) and having passed the Euro Test. It says nothing about FIS points or the CAPA, and yet for some individuals the MOU sticker has been administered, and for others it has not.
Also, the MOU memorandum dictates that those holding the highest qualification prior to 2012 are not required to have also passed the Euro Test; and again for some individuals the MOU sticker has been administered, whilst for others it has not.
It is the case that for some people the spirit of the document is adhered to whilst for others it is the word of the document. It does not appear to be a level playing field.
You have cleared up my misunderstanding however around the subject of FIS points, in that I was not aware that sufficiently low points gave you an ET pass rather than an exemption.
I guess there could also be misunderstanding around the old Grade 1 holders that were "grandfathered" in to the new structure ... my understanding is that they were only required to pass the Mountain Safety module and NOT the ET in order to attain ISTD, is this wrong?
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You know it makes sense.
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| Jimd wrote: |
| When SB wins his case with the irrefutable evidence he apparently has should all those who voted for his expulsion and executive staff who have pursued this vendetta be dismissed from their positions? Whats good for the goose etc etc. |
Personally, I don't care about BASI and what happens to them after the court case, but I agree @jimd that if the proverbial shoe fits.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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And just to be clear @skimottaret do those ISTD holders with sufficiently low FIS points get a ET pass certificate?
Let's remember that it is BASI who have been administering the MOU sticker, and therefore just because those ISTD qualified via FIS points rather than the ET have been given the sticker does not mean that it was correctly administered ... unless they do have a ET pass certificate.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Out of curiosity, does this FIS points EuroTest pass apply to all nationalities? Or is it only for BASI instructors working towards their ISTD?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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billy not a boy, I spoke to a couple of French instructors last winter who were doing FIS races instead of taking the Eurotest.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| rjs wrote: |
| billy not a boy, I spoke to a couple of French instructors last winter who were doing FIS races instead of taking the Eurotest. |
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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FIS points aren't that hard to get just ask Vanessa Mae to organise some races for you.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@billy not a boy, I could be wrong on this but I believe that BASI just supply the French with a list of people eligible for the MoU. It is the French that maintain the Database. If you look at a EuroSki Pro card it says if found return to the SNSMF (or whatever the Union is)
See Clause 5 in the MoU for info on the FIS point exemption.
And yes all MoU signatory nationals are eligible for the FIS point exemption. (at the moment if you are say a member of the Irish Association you are NOT EVEN ALLOWED to enter a "EuroTest" as they are not signatories of the MoU) another thing that most people don't know which really sucks...
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| skimottaret wrote: |
@billy not a boy, I could be wrong on this but I believe that BASI just supply the French with a list of people eligible for the MoU. It is the French that maintain the Database. If you look at a EuroSki Pro card it says if found return to the SNSMF (or whatever the Union is)
See Clause 5 in the MoU for info on the FIS point exemption.
And yes all MoU signatory nationals are eligible for the FIS point exemption. (at the moment if you are say a member of the Irish Association you are NOT EVEN ALLOWED to enter a "EuroTest" as they are not signatories of the MoU) another thing that most people don't know which really sucks... |
This would certainly explain how the French Authorities were in the know about SB's MOU status before he was, if the BASI had informed the relevant French authority about the error in issuing SB's sticker, then anyone with an interest in such matters could maybe have been in the loop as far as notifications are concerned; police and officials contacted, SB arrested without him even being notified himself of said administrative error.
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Everyone phone the Basi office and pretend to be a reporter from one of the nationals, it's amazing how defensive they get, but on the flip side thanks for letting slip some very interesting information, (i.e) who wrote the emails to the Italians, also who the 3 Basi members are that wrote reports about Simon Butler teaching in Megeve last season, it's amazing how two faced some people are and who is just a treacherous disgusting creature who will get named unless he comes out and explains why he did this to Simon Butler after working for him for so long.
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@Teacher, now the 2nd bit of your point I would like to see what that persons motivation was..... I fear though that will never happen
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@ajc2260626, Well this said person now has to explain himself as to why he did this unthinkable thing, because when his name comes out (and it will come out) nobody will want to employ this person ever again.
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| Teacher wrote: |
| Everyone phone the Basi office and pretend to be a reporter from one of the nationals, it's amazing how defensive they get, but on the flip side thanks for letting slip some very interesting information, (i.e) who wrote the emails to the Italians, also who the 3 Basi members are that wrote reports about Simon Butler teaching in Megeve last season, it's amazing how two faced some people are and who is just a treacherous disgusting creature who will get named unless he comes out and explains why he did this to Simon Butler after working for him for so long. |
Have I missed something? Who let what slip?
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FAQ
