BASI sued for £500 000

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

And yes, it seems he doesn't like the Eurotest.
School bus driver against Nigel Mansell

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/296931.stm

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@cameronphillips2000, what conflict of interest? I'm sure JYL's legal points (or some of them), will be put before French and Scottish courts of law, and the judges will weigh them with other points when examining the evidence. His points either carry weight or not, and his economic interests don't come into it. The main point (as regarding potential conflict of interest or lack thereof) is that JYL doesn't get to decide anything.

Now, a power to remove licenses from local business competitors, that's a conflict of interest, which I imagine will be of interest to the Edinburgh court.

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@laundryman, exactly.

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Jean, have you ever been arrested for working as an illegal instructor/guide?

yes.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with what Jean says. But on watching the video with the Euronflag and his confederation intro you get the impression he's some independent Eurocrat trying to give the EU stance on it.

Whereas he's actually an independent instructor/guide who's got himself in the position of major and chair of the confederation of outdoor workers or whatever. What he says is actually very good. It would sound a lot better if it came from the chair often the confederation of outdoor workers if the chair did not have his history or links with SB.

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@cameronphillips2000, I doubt JYL will be a witness because, well, he hasn't witnessed anything. I doubt even that he would be called as an expert witness, because his relevant expertise is law, and the advocates and judges can handle that, I presume. Maybe he will be SB's advocate in France, but then it is clear an advocate has an interest in his client's success. I'd have thought that potential conflicts of interest for the parties to the dispute is much more relevant.

Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer, far less a Scottish or French lawyer.

clearly it would appear that he's got a vested interest and is on one side of the argument, however if he's on the "right side of the argument" then it doesn't really matter as at the end of the day the right side of the argument will be determined by the courts..... and if the agree with him all that it means is that SB & Co are the in the right and that esf / basi aren't and vica versa if the courts decide the other way......

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I just watched the video, was taken in and then did a bit of googling and it came across a bit like Simon's mate Jean sets up a video camera in an office with a Euro flag and starts speaking with the authority of Jaques Delores. It all just feels a bit orchestrated.

I'm no lawyer, or instructor but the whole episode does seem far more about politics and money than quality, safe instruction. To me, the Eurotest race is ludicrous. Mournho was a translator and Saatchi a shoe salesman. Two of the greatest coaches ever.
I have dealt with many schools and instructors though over the years as I organised many school trips. There was a huge variance in quality so regulation is good.
I also managed many PE teachers over the years, a world with more than it's of testosterone, ego, posturing and macho men. ski instruction was much the same. The industry would be far better off controlled by women. I found they generally made far better instructors for the mass market (kids)

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Exemptions to the Euro test "Grand Father Rights" and MoU's were being given to the 200 Spanish holding their highest level instructors who qualified prior to 6th Feb 2012 (see section 2) The suggestion that their was some kind of cut off point that Simon did not meet simply does not stand up...
http://www.basi.org.uk/docs/MoU_Meeting_Report_24022012.pdf

Is the protectionism aspect of this likely to be considered by the European court?

You know it makes sense.

Whether or not the French view that the ability to ski extremely fast is a valid criterion for being a coach or the head of a ski school, I can't see how BASI can possibly come out of this without a catastrophic amount of egg on its face. Confused

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

@Hurtle, I presume it will look at the letter of the directive, but since its premise (in the first recital) is "whereas the abolition of obstacles, as between the member states, to the free movement of people and services is an objective of the Community", protectionism is the core of the matter I believe.

Edit: but I feel nervous expounding to a lawyer!

A snowHead

@laundryman, please don't, I'm no longer a lawyer in any meaningful sense! I had just lost track of whether the issue was going to the European Court at all, or whether it's likely to stop somewhere in the French legal system.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

@Hurtle, the appeal in France led to acquitals and suspensions, pending examination by the Administrative Court of the legality of the prefecture's processing of the dossiers. If the prefecture acted illegally, then the suspensions will become acquitals I believe, and there it would rest (until some other excuse for harassment arises - to be partisan). Otherwise, the next step is an appeal to Paris, followed by an appeal to the European Court, if necessary. So, potentially a long way to go. I honestly don't think the various French schools, unions, administrations care whether they win or lose; the point has been made that if you want to challenge them with an innovative business model, you'd better have deep pockets, a thick skin and single-minded determination. As you say, the BASI panjandrums have more to lose.

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Ah, thanks, I'd forgotten what stage the litigation had reached. Whilst I'm not always a fan of the European Court, it would be interesting to have their pronouncement. But then I'm not paying the bills, nor am I a BASI member, thank God.

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There has been a lot of focus on this thread about SB and his personal position. However, is the issue not also about the wider issue of ISTD qualified school owners employing lesser qualified instructors who have not gone through the french system and passed the Test Technique? Or am I barking totally up the wrong tree?

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@Gaza, I think it is. But could easily be wrong.

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@Gaza, yes, it's all part of it. After the court case in 2006, SB was allowed to employ non-ISTDs without ET or TT. The court found that no substantial differences could be demonstrated between the training and experience of his then employees (mostly the same lot involved in the current case) and French people doing similar things. However, I think this was decided at a court of first instance, wasn't appealed by the authorities, and therefore a binding precedent wasn't set. But I could be wrong on that.

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So a question, SB was blackballed for supposedly bringing BASI into disrepute, judging however from the comments and criticisms that the directors of BASI who acted in this way it could be easily argued that their actions have done far more damage to BASI and have bought that organisation into far more disrepute than SB's actions, will they therefore be asked to quit or resign because of this ?

@D G Orf, if it were me in SBs position I think I would be bringing personal lawsuits against them, not just against BASI as an organisation!

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Anyone fancy having a shot at a timeline for this.

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You know it makes sense.

The fly in the ointment is that SB has an Italian MOU. The Italians knew that SB did not have Eurotest. The therefore approved his application on the basis that his professional experience compensated for any substantial difference. EXACTLY what the French should have done and applied the same logic to later Grade 1's applying for equivalence and yet are still turning down the initial group based on 'substantial difference.'

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A snowHead

It wasn't an automatic process. Those who were eligible still needed BASI backing to tick of the application to the French. Hence there are a number who were eligible but are currently shut out.

A snowHead

^ do you have a web link ?
I have never heard of this...

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

@skison, I don't think anyone in that group (20+?) who applied for a Carte Pro were granted it, unless you heard differently?

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I wonder how the court will view BASI trying to interfere with SB Italian status while proceeding are running.

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The whole thing seems odd to me as an outsider, if I understand things correctly (and maybe I don't) BASI did a deal with the french whereby those with the top level of instruction before a certain date should have been given an automatic right to an MOU card, but then it seems that said members had to apply before a certain date and it seems some of those members did not get their MOU, but some did, then roll forward a number of years and we find that senior BASI members appear to have something against one particular member who just happens to have a rival ski school to one they have an interest in and all of a sudden his MOU is revoked, the French are informed and arrest SB and some of his instructors and then BASI remove his membership claiming he bought the organisation into dispute.

If I'd been in BASI at a high level when the original ruling came in 10+ years ago I'd have simply contacted the members concerned (we are only talking about relatively small numbers here) and sent them their cards, why this wasn't done is a mystery, why they are now saying that some people were not as well qualified as others with the same level of training is a similar mystery.

Something smells of long dead fish SB has so far as I can see broken French rules regarding running a ski school, however those rules seem to go against EU rules, BASI seem to have not been looking after their own members interests and from last year or maybe the previous one I also recall tales of financial irregularities..... It does not make good reading

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After all it is free

@laundryman, you are correct in your appraisal that the Satolas agreement has nothing to do with this current issue.

As you note, the agreement was drawn up between BASI and the SNMSF, and it was seen at the time (rightly or wrongly) as a win for BASI. It enabled those who were at the time disallowed their Euro Test pass due to some questionable events surrounding a test held in Garmisch to obtain their ISTD certificates with the ET pass, but the main purpose of the agreement and the win as far as BASI were concerned was for some BASI Snowboard instructors who currently held top level qualifications to be given an ISTD an consequently a Carte Pro even though they had not themselves passed the ET. In that agreement BASI stated that they would not recognize at a European level any other DIPLOMA other than the ISTD. It did NOT state that they would not recognise any other qualification.

This current SB thing has nothing to do with the Satolas agreement.

It does, however have everything to do with the conditions under which the MOU stamp can be awarded to snowsprts instructors (be that for snowboarding or skiing). There are some firm guidelines issued to each "authority" which has been mandated with ADMINISTRATIVE task of issuing the MOU stamp/sticker on an instructor's licence (another questionable area as far as UK snowsports is concerned, bu that is a digression).

In those guidelines it is expressly stated that:

The MOU sticker will be awarded to those instructors holding the authority's highest level of qualification AND the Euro Test.

However, there are caveats to this:

All individuals who held said level of certification PRIOR to 2012 are NOT required to also have passed the Euro Test.

I'm no lawyer, but from my reading of the MOU memorandum, it is quite straight forward.

BASI however have claimed that their administrative error in issuing SB with his MOU stamp is based upon the fact that he has not passed the Euro Test. Look at the chronology here:

SB attained his Grade 1 with BASI in 1986
SB was omitted from the original list of those given grandfather rights due to ANOTHER administrative error
SB was granted his "grandfather rights" and eventually given his full ISTD in 2008 (I believe that was the year, but I could be wrong)

Now by my reckoning, 2008 is most assuredly prior to 2012, the cut off date for the requirement of having passed the ET in order to obtain the MOU stamp.

@D G Orf,

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billy not a boy, I would expect the old CAPA to be held as equivalent to the Eurotest in the same way that sufficiently low FIS points are.

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BASI sued for £500 000

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