BASI sued for £500 000

A snowHead

@sugardaddy, I understand and appreciate the sentiment of your point but I think your understanding is not quite correct and so I will do my best to answer: -

The first thing to say is that anyone from any country can join the French training system and train to become a ski instructor. In order to become a trainee they have to pass something called the Test Technique which is a timed slalom run (slalom not giant slalom) and they have to get within a percentage of the opener's time, a similar method to the Eurotest. This is quite a formidable test and is almost certainly well above the standard required for a BASI Level 2 or Austrian Anwaerter for example. And just to be clear, this is just to get on the training course, they are not entitled to teach anyone. Just to pass the Test Technique requires a lot of training and a lot of hard work as well as probably a lot of coaching which provides a lot of knowledge of not only ski technique but also observation of how to teach. Once they have passed the Test Technique they then have to undergo a training course after which they can work as a Stagiere (trainee) in a ski school under the supervision/mentoring of fully qualified ski instructors. This type of supervision/mentoring is common to most if not all ski instructor systems including BASI. So someone who is a Stagiere (trainee) in the French system will be an excellent skier, well above the standard required for BASI Level 2 and probably around the level of a Level 3 and their knowledge is also likely to be very high. I don't know this for certain, but in keeping with other systems it is likely that they will only be allowed to teach to a certain level of skier.

If a BASI Level 2 or BASI Level 3 wanted to work as a Stagiere (trainee) in a French ski school they would have to pass the Test Technique regardless of who runs the ski school.

A British run ski school in France can have Stagieres (trainees) working in their school but only if they have a certain number of instructors who have passed ISTD via the French system. The reason for this is because each system have their own ways of teaching/technique and so it is deemed that they should be mentored by people who have completed the French system rather than another system.

So in summary, anyone can join the French system but they all have to pass the Test Technique slalom first and they can work in any ski school as a trainee as long as there are a certain number of French qualified mentors/supervisors.

The trainees generally have a maximum of 4 years' (it might now be 3, sorry for not knowing this) in which they are allowed to teach whilst they are trying to pass the Eurotest. The cannot teach longer than this without the Eurotest unless they can prove they have been out injured. Once they pass the Eurotest they then have to complete more training and pass more tests in order to gain their full certification.

I think that most people would deem the above to be fair. The only question of contention perhaps is that the smaller ski schools which are often British run often don't have enough ISTDs who have qualified via the French system and so they cannot use stagieres; they would like to because they are cheaper! As far as the trainees themselves are concerned, they are arguably better off working in one of the large French ski schools because it gives them a better chance of learning French to a high standard which makes them even more employable in their future careers.

You mentioned about paying the same price for a trainee as you would for an ISTD in France. In Austria, Switzerland, Scotland and others you are unlikely to get an ISTD at all because they will almost certainly make up the minority of the ski school; you will often find that say 80% of the ski school will be the equivalent of a Level 2, 15% say at Level 3 and only 5% at ISTD and yet they will generally charge the same for all of them. So it is only France and Italy where say 90% plus of a ski school will be full ISTD and as we have mentioned generally 100% of a British run or small ski school in France will be ISTD.

I hope that helps.

@flangesax, the link you gave is for the Austrian ski association's page and not for the training of ski instructors I believe, I stand corrected if I am wrong. They list 9 regions but as @Samerberg Sue, has already mentioned she believes that one of the regions has merged with another and there are now 8.

I think it is likely that in some places there will be instructors working who are not legal; unfortunately this is the probably the same for most professions in any country but as I have said earlier the law in France for example states that you can only teach if you have an ISTD or you are a bona fide trainee having passed the Test Technique slalom.

Btw, you can teach in Scotland without any ski instructor qualification whatsoever as there is no legal requirement to do so. You probably wouldn't get any liability insurance but I am sure you take my point.

A snowHead

@waitrose, too many assumptions, I was simply commenting on your list. I assumed that the lack of one name on your link meant that Burgenland's organisation no longer exist or perhaps had been absorbed by the Kärntner one.

Your style is very authoritative, perhaps you do know all the intricate details of the differences between all the various associations, however I'll stick with what @flangesax and my Austrian ski instructor friends tell me. You freely admit that your German is not the best, perhaps you should work at it as you will need it to complete LL2, unless Wien allows you to take the exam in any language you like. The Wiener do have a reputation for doing things differently! rolling eyes

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

@waitrose, you have explained very well the current situation, which I understand. I
From my point of view (as a client) I have trouble with a few points:

the French claim that only a "full cert" can deliver good, safe instruction. I really don't care what hoops you have to go through to get on the course. The TT is tough. So what? Are medical students from Harvard to be allowed to work in hospitals like fully licensed doctors from lesser schools because it's harder to get to Harvard?
The system is either single tiered i/e/ only full certs deliver lessons solo and at full price, or the real situation is that trainees are allowed to deliver lessons solo, for years and that means that they are working without being holding the ISTD and their only constraint is that they cannot set up shop by themselves.
As I client, it's either that the French believe that only a full cert can deliver full value and in that case I've been shortchanged or they are selling porkies in prder to limit my choice. But the main point is that I don't see that the "single tiered system" is real.

The part of "having gone through the French system" is irrelevant if a trainee is not working towards French quals.

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@Samerberg Sue, I have just had a long telephone conversation with Ingrid in the office of the Salzburgerland Berufsskilehrer und Snowboardlehrer Verband (SBSSV). She explained to me that there is definitely a timed Giant Slalom race for the Landesleherer 2 examination. She also said there is no requirement for Giant Slalom assessment in either Anwaerter or Landeslehrer 1.

Just to let you know, for example in Landesleherer 1, the written examination can be completed in English or German. The teaching part of the examination has to be in German. This is in agreement with the International Ski Instructors Associations requirement to have more than 1 language, but the 2nd language does not have to be anywhere close to fluent. Nevertheless I am working everyday to improve my German in order to try and get well above the required level.

There are 9 regional ski associations but only 8 of them adjudicate for ski instructor qualifications. The odd one out is Burgenland who do not organise ski instructor qualifications.

If you wish to check the above for yourself here is the telephone number of SBSSV +43 (0)6545 60644.

I was disappointed by the tone of your last post. I don't know what I have done to cause such a reaction. I try very hard not to rely on assumptions or hearsay as I have found from experience it is often unreliable and I prefer whenever possible to get the correct information from the appropriate source.

@sugardaddy, yes I certainly understand that a client of a ski school might feel short changed if they were given a trainee to teach them rather than someone who held the top level of qualification. I believe that a customer should be told the qualifications of the person who is teaching them and perhaps charged a lesser price if the person is only a trainee. I would suggest that when booking a lesson that you ask for a top qualified instructor as I am sure most ski schools would oblige and if not then you have the option of going elsewhere perhaps.

As I explained, you are much more likely to get a top qualified instructor in France and Italy than any other country in Europe but I can understand the point you make when those two countries say they have a 1 tier instructor system which is not quite true if they allow trainees to teach. The only comfort, which is probably the wrong word, I can suggest is that they can only teach as trainees for a limited time, they are mentored/supervised, they will be high level skiers, they will have been trained and they are likely to be at a higher level than say 80% of other instructors in Europe. However, as I said, I certainly understand and accept your valid point.

@flangesax, thank you for your kind comments. I generally steer clear of ski forums because there is too much comment made based on assumptions, anecdotal evidence and hearsay and I often find myself shouting at the screen in frustration, ha ha! I know that everyone is entitled to their opinion but I believe that an opinion should only be respected if it is formed as far as possible due to correct facts. Often, if I garner the correct facts and post them some people seem to take an opposite view just because they don't like to be shown to be wrong. I fully understand that many people consider this as banter and enjoy the engagement but unfortunately I don't. For example, I only got involved in this thread because I made a one line statement that said if a BASI level 2 or 3 cannot pass the Eurotest they could easily teach in Austria or Switzerland which is perfectly true. I was then attacked for being another of those people who comment without knowing the law and for believing BASI lies! And I am still here debating, haha. No doubt what I have just said will attract other comments and so the circle continues. Anyway @flangesax, I appreciate your kind words and hope I can now leave this thread in peace.

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@waitrose, love your style and approach. Thank you. I

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NOT MY OWN WORDS, COPIED AND PASTE FROM SKI.HUB ON FACEBOOK.

BASI -V- SIMON BUTLER -V- BASI
THE ITALIAN CONNECTION: BASI UPS THE PRESSURE
The seemingly endless saga of Simon Butler - a highly-qualified British ski instructor who operates a ski school in France and opposes restrictive employment practices in the same country - has taken a significant new turn.
SKI.HUB has been sent a set of 2-way email correspondence which reveals a determined attempt by the British Association of Snowsport Instructors to question the status of an Italian-issued validation - 'MoU' - granted to Simon Butler earlier this year. The emails are addressed to the Italian authority ufficiosport@governo.it, whose MoU could help him operate and teach again in France. Butler is in separate Scottish litigation with BASI, which expelled him last November but has since reinstated his membership, following an Edinburgh court hearing. That action restored his teaching licence (at least in Britain) and the case will continue next month.
Last winter saw a serious threat to Simon Butler's ski school in Megève, after the French authorities prosecuted him for not holding approved qualifications. In response he reduced the operation there and moved some activities to Crans Montana in Switzerland, but plans to concentrate on Megève again for 2015-6. As yet, there is no resolution to his French conviction, which is in an appeal process.
SKI.HUB intends to publish the correspondence in full, probably with all personal names redacted at this time, and is taking soundings on that. The live legal proceedings may or may not affect that plan.

After all it is free

@Teacher, your not another sock puppet of dear Mr Goldsmith are you?

Blimey Goldsmith finally contributes something to ski journalism after all these years. No doubt it will be milked for all its wort before anything of substance is revealed. I assume someone will cross post the substantive points here. If the innuendo here is true methinks BASI would be better managing their own house than pursuing their bete noire at all costs. Kinda miss TTT would would assure us that it's all fine and BASI are totally correct in law every time they do anything and in fact the moral guardians of the galaxy. My only question is who is the space racoon and who is the tree?

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@ansta1, No i am not, but i am a full Basi ISTD that fully supports Simon Butler and his team of instructors, basi are out to get Simon anyway they can, and it makes me sick that the Basi board are aloud to continue like this, it's an association run by it's members for it's members, not for a one person machine to persecute another member and his right to work and support his family.

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@Teacher, was a little tongue in cheek. It's usually DG who posts links to his ski.hub stuff.

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wackyleaks.org is available DG wink

You know it makes sense.

A few other things to consider
Simon got his Italian Maestro license a few months ago and that comes with an MoU sticker so he is once again completely legal to teach in France. BASI goes out of its way to try to influence the Italians to remove Simons Maestro license during which time they say they are too busy to try to consider working rights of L2 and L3 members, pathetic.
Two BASI members from Megeve lodged a formal complaint with BASI that Simon was teaching in France after his MoU was removed due an "admin error". It is rumoured that these two members are on the board of directors. Simon was in fact teaching his own children which is completely legal to do, again pathetic.
The ex interim CEO of BASI claimed to be a solicitor but there is no record of him on the Irish or British Law Society register of solicitors, he whispers in Simon's ear at a Open meeting for BASI members that he has had his membership revoked without notice and is asked to leave the meeting, pathetic and childish...
Simon wins an injunction to have his membership and license reinstated, what a waste of money for both sides.

The £500k case was due for judgement in July anyone know what the status is?

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

I've eard that BASI have booked a venue in a ski resort for their next AGM

http://www.vendettasvail.com/

A snowHead

I AM GROOT!

A snowHead

Why would it be any business of BASI's whether Butler was rightly or wrongly issued with a qualification by Italian authorities?

Unless the purpose is harassment and that can't be, can it? Because only a blithering idiot would harass someone who is in the process of suing you.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Perhaps to avoid setting a precedent for other instructors who would like to obtain an MoU stamp and work in France but haven't passed the Eurotest?...

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Doesn't answer the question. What business is it of BASI's what tickets Italian authorities issue? Do you demand to check your next door neighbour's tax return?

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Quite right..... I would speculate that if BASI are unable to apply enough pressure on the Italians to remove Simon's Maestro license (which gains him the MoU stamp and granted to him after the Italian review of his qualifications and decades of experience) this would allow him to work in France again and would significantly weaken BASI's defence in his case against them.

If the SKI.HUB report is true I find it a touch annoying that BASI has all the time in the world to write emails to the Italians to remove someones license, or questioning their decision to grant one, but they never seem to have time to support people in obtaining the right to work in Foreign countries... The sound of drawbridges being pulled up is not uncommon at BASI HQ...

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I suppose that BASI are concerned their membership may get the idea that the Italian organization supports UK instructors better than they themselves do.

I'm not sure about the "drawbridge" analogy - it seems more like they've set fire to their castle to defend it.

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Just read the correspondence on ski-hub... Shocked

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@AndAnotherThing.., which one is that?

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@skimottaret, One of the Spanish regions.

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@Gämsbock, can you put the link up?

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BASI -V- SIMON BUTLER -V- BASI ...... THE ITALIAN CONNECTION (2): THE EMAILS
By David Goldsmith on Friday, 7 August 2015 at 16:51

SKI.HUB reported yesterday (6 Aug 2015) that the British Association of Snowsport Instructors (BASI) has been in communication with the Italian authorities concerning their validation of Simon Butler to teach skiing internationally.

Butler is in long-term legal dispute with the French authorities and BASI concerning his ski school and personal teaching operations in Megeve, France. Earlier this year he was granted an Italian 'MoU' validation which may help him to operate fully in Megeve again for the coming winter.

This is the full text of several emails leaked to SKI.HUB. All personal names have been redacted, apart from Simon Butler's.

From: [name redacted]@basi.org.uk>
Date: 28 July 2015 13:27:53 CEST
To: "ufficiosport@governo.it"
Cc: [9 cc addressees redacted]
Subject: RE: riconoscimento Butler BASI - UK

Dear Sir or Madam

Following advice given by [name redacted] (email below), I contact you with regard to the issuing of an MoU stamp by the Italian authorities to a BASI member, Mr Simon Butler.

I have attached a number of documents that outline the situation, which results in our (BASI) understanding that Mr. Simon Butler is not eligible for an MoU Stamp.
The MoU stamp entitles the holder to be recognised in all signatory countries.
However, that is not to impinge on the authority of any EU member state’s authority to recognise whatever qualification they wish to recognise.

Nevertheless, according to Article 2 within the Annex I of the MoU (attached MoU. EN + annexI.pdf):
Ski instructors who have passed the 'Eurotest' and have acquired in their Member State of origin safety-related competencies in accordance with the requirements of the 'Euro-Security' test as well as pedagogical competencies required for the diploma of highest qualification will receive a pilot professional card from their country of origin.
Thus, only the country of origin (where instructor has completed their training and assessment) is entitled to issue the MoU stamp.

It is BASI’s understanding that Mr. Butler has not completed any exams in Italy to be entitled to hold the Italian Maestro di Sci qualification.
It is BASI’s understanding that he has been accorded recognition of his BASI qualification as equivalent. This is distinctly different from his holding an actual Italian Maestro di Sci Italiano qualification.

If Italy wishes to recognise Mr Butler, we (BASI) fully respect and understand this is your right to accord him recognition.
But in being recognised in Italy, we understand that this does not mean he would have automatic recognition in other signatory states of the MoU. It is only if he holds an actual Italian qualification could Italy be in accordance with the MoU annex I and issue Mr. Butler an Italian MoU stamp.
It is our understanding that when Mr Butler applied to the Italian Authorities for recognition as equivalent to a Maestro di Sci Italiano, not all the facts were declared.
· Firstly; attached is a letter sent to Mr Butler from BASI explaining how he was issued an MoU stamp by BASI in error! As far as we are aware, the Italian authorities were not given a copy of this letter by Mr. Butler.
As the attached letter explains, Mr. Butler did not fulfil the criteria as laid out within the Annex 1 of the MoU. He has not completed the Eurotest, nor has he obtained any grandfather rights through any other bilateral agreement prior to 12/09/2012.
Mr Butler has not been issued the annual MoU stamp by BASI since 2012/13 due to his ineligibility. He is not in possession of a valid MoU sticker
· Secondly; attached is information about a French criminal court hearing in which Mr Butler has been found guilty of several infringements of French Law.(“Non member further info” and pdf Full minutes of August 31 judgement Bonneville). BASI is not aware of this information having been declared to the Italian authorities by Mr Butler.
Also attached is a record of his continuing history of incidents Mr Butler has been involved with in French law over at least a 10 year period (pdf BUTLER Simon récapulatif des procedures 2003 à 2013) supplied by the French Ski instructors trade union, the Syndicat National des Moniteurs de Ski Français [SNMSF]) BASI is not aware that this was declared when Mr. Butler applied to the Italian authorities for recognition of equivalence.

If any of this information about the processes that were followed in awarding Mr Butler recognition in Italy are incorrect, BASI would be most grateful for any corrections.
However if our information is correct, then we should humbly and respectfully request that you investigate this further so that the Italian reputation for excellence is not compromised.

We would nevertheless, request that you retract the issue of the MoU stamp.
Based on the information above and the intended requirements of the eventual “European Professional Card”, which will be the result of a Delegated Act (anticipated to come to fruition within the next 6/12 months), it our understanding that in the current situation for Mr Butler would not be entitled to recognition within other signatory states to the MoU as it currently stands.

Your help in this situation is most appreciated

Best regards

[author name redacted]

[Microsoft translation of the email above into Italian appears here]

From: Ufficio Sport [mailto:ufficiosport@palazzochigi.it]
Sent: 13 July 2015 15:16
To: [name redacted]
Cc: [5 cc addressees redacted]

Subject: R: riconoscimento Butler BASI - UK

[name redacted]
in riscontro alla pregiata Sua e-mail del 6 luglio osservo quanto segue.

1 Il sig. Butler in data 9 gennaio 2015 ha chiesto il riconoscimento del proprio titolo di maestro di sci britannico, corredando l’istanza con copia della tessera professionale BASI con bollino MoU.
2 Valutata idonea la documentazione prodotta, in data 29 gennaio 2015 l’Ufficio per lo sport, ha emanato il decreto di riconoscimento, come da normativa vigente.
3 A seguito di ciò il sig. Butler si è iscritto al Collegio dei Maestri di sci del Piemonte, che ha rilasciato una tessera professionale italiana.
Considerato quanto sopra, al fine di consentire a questo Ufficio le valutazioni di competenza, è necessario che l’Organo che in GB ha rilasciato la tessera con bollino MOU, che si asserisce invalida, formuli idonea istanza (all’Ufficio Sport DARAS ufficiosport@governo.it ), ben evidenziando i motivi della richiesta di revoca del provvedimento.

Cordiali saluti.
[name redacted]

Da: [name redacted]@basi.org.uk]
Inviato: venerdì 3 luglio 2015 11:53
A: [name redacted]
Cc: [2 cc addressees redacted]
Oggetto: [5 addressees redacted]

Dear [name redacted]

I come to you in the hope that you can help me with some information.

It is our understanding that Mr. Simon Butler has been given a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) Stamp from the Regional College of Piemonte this year.

Can I ask if Mr Bulter has,
1. attended and
2. successfully completed the Italian Maestro di Sci training and
3. gained the Italian qualification to be a ski instructor?

The reason why I ask is because there is a legal situation for us in which we must gain clear understanding of this information.

Our information indicates that he has not completed any training, nor has he successfully completed the requirements for the MoU stamp by passing the Eurotest within the Italian training system. I should be grateful for confirmation of this fact.

I apologise, but I only have an example of the MoU annex I in English (attached pdf.). I assume you will have a copy in Italian.
You will see from article 2. Pilot professional card;
Ski instructors who have passed the 'Eurotest' and have acquired in their Member State of origin safety-related competencies in accordance with the requirements of the 'Euro-Security' test as well as pedagogical competencies required for the diploma of highest qualification will receive a pilot professional card from their country of origin.
The country of origin is considered to be the country in which the ski instructor received his/her training.

Given the MoU original texts and because Mr Butler has not acquired a VALID MoU stamp from BASI, it is with great concern that we understand that Mr Butler has been given an MoU stamp from the Italian authorities.

For your information, through an administration error in our office in 2012, Mr Butler was incorrectly issued an MoU stamp.
He has not been issued a valid MoU stamp since then from BASI, because he has not completed the required elements as described within Annex I

If our information is correct, and Mr Butler has not attended and successfully completed the Italian training to gain an Italian qualification, then he should not be in possession of the MoU Stamp. Therefore, I ask you to withdraw any MoU stamp that may have been issued to him by the Regional College of Piemonte.

Your help and cooperation with this situation is greatly appreciated.
Best regards

[name redacted]

@sugardaddy, all very good points..... as i understand it there may well have being collusion between basi and the french ski union as the arrangement would have suited both of them for different reasons, which if this does turn out to be the case then i would imagine that people will lose their jobs, be prosecuted, sued etc which is what SB is doing..... obviously it could go the other way but only the courts will decide this....

personally i cant imagine the french have done anything at all that could be construed as militant, protectionist or dodgy wink

You know it makes sense.

@skimottaret, thanks for posting that. I am shocked! Someone has really got it in for Simon Butler but I would hope that telling the Italian ski authorities, in very condecending terms, that they are wrong, would only result in a flea in their ear. "BASI? A bunch of nobodies in a non-Alpine country? How dare they tell us what to do? Ha! We Italians are ski gods". Laughing

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

And more information has come to light. There are several BASI members who have qualified as Italian Maestros and at least one who holds the BASI ISTD MoU and the Italian MoU. It really does feel like a witch hunt.

A snowHead

A snowHead

Reading that I'm glad I don't have anything at all to do with BASI. Nor will I ever have anything to do with them. Bastards. I choose to spend my money elsewhere, and sincerely hope that others will do likewise.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

I see in the news that Simon Butler Skiing is EXPANDING yet again, You kick and punch someone hard enough they come back harder and stronger.

Thats now 3 resorts that you can have the Simon Butler Skiing experience in.

Don't be surprised that in a couple of years Simon Butler Skiing is bigger and better than everything else out there, would love to see Simon Butler reaction when all these ISTD's that oppose him now are then suddenly applying for jobs with him.

Karma working at its best.

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Simon Butler has NOT passed the Eurotest and so he is NOT entitled to an MOU from any EU country. BASI are quite properly pointing that out to the Italian instructor association. I suspect that the Italians would have been duped by Simon showing them his now defunct old MOU stamp which they would not have known had been rescinded and hence thought they were obliged to issue the same. Simon Butler has persistently and for many years tried to get around the rules and the law. The fact that he has tried yet again to get around the system and gain an MOU stamp from the Italians is just another one of his 'scams'.

I am very pleased that BASI are supporting the vast majority of it membership by helping to ensure that the rules and regulations of holding a proper licence to teach are adhered to.

@TTT, is absolutely right, good to hear someone who knows the real facts around this issue and not acting on hearsay, sentiment and anecdotal evidence.

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@waitrose,

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@pam w, I'm slightly confused about the issuance of this so called MoU by BASI ( or anyone else for that matter ). A small amount of research has shown that as of 2004 all instructors are required to pass the Eurotest, but that instructors who qualified before that time are issued their licence under so called 'grandfather rights'. To this end the illustrious BASI issues MoU ( I'm not sure how one can issue a Memorandum of Understanding ) to a number of old instructors but evidently not to Mr Butler, or rather they did but then decided it had been a mistake.
So, long story short, to get the MoU you have to fall into the grandfather category ( which Mr Butler seems to do ) and don't need to pass the Eurotest? Are the Italian criteria for issuing an MoU somehow different to those that apply to BASI?

Did I miss something?

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This has, no doubt, been posted before but I thought it rather interesting. The source, as much as anything else.

http://www.ambafrance-uk.org/British-ski-instructors-welcome-in

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BASI sued for £500 000

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