A sad and sobering thread, but with some really useful experiences being shared. Having just returned from a week with my 5 and 10 year olds I couldn't sleep the night this news broke, too close to home. I lost the10 year old very briefing in those piste edge tracks and jumps as I was sticking with the 5 year old. He just didn't come out where expected and I eventually spotted him deep in the woods, one ski off, getting very frustrated, and talked him back to then piste. Brought home how quickly and easily you can get separated. He did some short runs on his own, short lifts with only one way down. I was only nervous when he'd taken a drag to have another run through a snow park (with strict instructions where to go and that he needed to sort himself out if he crashed!)... seemed like forever before he reappeared grinning at the bottom.
He's used to managing his own risks from mountain biking, but the difficulty is knowing what those risks are when you're on the mountain - particularly the specific local geography. Will be having a serious talk before our next trip I think and following some of the tips above on dealing with things when they don't go to plan.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
I hope if the family ever come to read this thread they can take from it the overwhelming sympathy of the skiing world, I think from the comments in this thread it is way over and above the average reaction people have to a tragic event, it has been genuinely arresting for a lot of people, and they can also take that a lot more people have become aware of a risk that they might not have appreciated or underestimated, their little boy's death will not be in vain, it will make us all hold those dearest to us a lot closer and will prevent others experiencing the same loss they have. I have been really looking forward to bringing my almost three year old skiing next year. I know that I will keep such a close eye on him on what will hopefully be multiple trips to experience all the mountains have to offer. I also know that I will be a lot more conscious of what I can do to keep him safer as a result of this thread and I will also be more likely to come to the aid of other children if they need help.
I hope that on some level makes things a tiny tiny bit easier for the family, hopefully having something positive to reflect on.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@8611, ^ A most thoughtful comment, and well expressed.
@8611, indeed. We have taken the time to talk to our three kids (11, 9 and 7) about the news over the last couple of days, not trying to scare them, but to make them aware as to why we insist on skiing in a snake with one of us at the head and one at the rear, and particularly to explain to our very gung-ho 7yo why she got a rollicking each time she tried to head off before everyone was together. This tragic situation has served to illustrate that the mountains - even the groomed, lift-served bits - can be dangerous. My thoughts are with the family at this awful time.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Horrible news
We were in Flaine 2 weeks ago with our 6 year old, who is a very accomplished skier, skiing reds and off piste with ski school of course.
That being said, in the afternoon out with me and his mum, he is never more than 5 meters from either 1 of us.
Whatever the circumstances my thoughts are with the family as it knocked me sick to the bone so god only knnows what they are going through.
This tragic situation has served to illustrate that the mountains - even the groomed, lift-served bits - can be dangerous.
While that is true, the pavement outside your house can be dangerous, as can your journey to work and certainly any swimming pool.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@jedster, true. But they don't have cliffs you can fall over easily in the dark - or hidden by trees. And by and large they don't have the risk of sudden swings in weather or, generally speaking a significant risk of injury over the period of a week. Which is why travel insurance covering skiing is more than insurance without.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Quote:
Which is why travel insurance covering skiing is more than insurance without.
yes but mostly for cost of injury from falls not death. Roads carry imminent risk of instant death at any moment.
I cycle to work every day. I'm sure that the risk of something truly dreadful happening is higher doing that than piste skiing. To be clear I'm also sure the health benefits outweigh that risk
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You only have to follow this forum for a while and see the number of injuries to see that skiing is not without risk. If you take a school trip of say 40 kids, you can usually expect to get to know the local hospital. Another risk for young people is getting lost in resort at night. Temperatures drop to very low levels, often they don't speak the language and alcohol is readily available. We always had more evening incidents than daytime incidents. There is a lot that can wrong taking children and young people skiing.
However, a week in the mountains, sliding down slippery slopes, with fresh air in your face, beautiful scenery and great food will make lasting memories for any child. Very serious incidents are relatively rare and better equipment, helmet culture and mobile phones have made skiing far safer then when I learnt.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Quote:
better equipment, helmet culture and mobile phones have made skiing far safer then when I learnt
Do you think so? I am unconvinced (we all wore helmets when we were kids learning (in the 1970s)). And how have mobile phones helped (for on piste skiers, most of the time?)?
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
under a new name wrote:
Quote:
better equipment, helmet culture and mobile phones have made skiing far safer then when I learnt
Do you think so? I am unconvinced (we all wore helmets when we were kids learning (in the 1970s)). And how have mobile phones helped (for on piste skiers, most of the time?)?
I went on two school trips as a sixth former and helmets were not offered. In the 80's very few wore helmets and then a wave of helmet wearing came in, led by the Americans.
I think the benefits of a mobile are obvious really. Our ski group split on quite a few occasions on the Birthday Bash and text messages to check if everyone was OK and without our phones we'd never have known if everyone was OK and re-meet. A quick phone call from a missing person can save rescue teams an lot of unnecessary work, leaving them free to work where needed.
The stats on helmets speak for themselves really: From 1995 to 2010 ski helmet use rose from 5% to 76%. Serious head injuries dropped by 65% in the same time. The debates are now more about which helmet? rather than helmet?
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
under a new name wrote:
@cameronphillips2000, I've started a new thread as drifting this onedoesn't feel right
I think you're right.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@8611, Well Put.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Having just returned from a family skiing with 6yo and 9yo I know how hard it is to keep an eye on them, even when skiing with both parents. Despite our best efforts to have an adult in front and an adult in the back, there were times when one of them managed to shoot off ahead, especially if we were distracted by one or other of them having a small tumble. They are so desperate to ski fast, shoot off piste and do little tricks it can be extremely hard to keep an eye on them at all times. We did drill into them that if they did get lost to stop right away and find an adult and hand over the cards in their pockets with our mobile numbers. A tragedy, but luckily an extremely rare one.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Such heart rending news, my thoughts are with the family of this poor boy.
It's also warming to read all the thoughtful and sincere comments from fellow 'heads and parents with support and various advice / points of view for safer skiing with children, not withstanding that horrific and thankfully rare incidents can happen x
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
As a result of both this heart wrenching accident and this thread, my 13 yo and I have reviewed and revised our saftey procedures. It was sobering for her as well as me and her mother, and, I'm sure, has given her pause for thought. We certainly did not get the usual teenage 'yeah yeah whatever Dad' when talking about it.
If any good is to come of such a tragic loss it is from us, the skiing fraternity, learning from this poor family's inconceivable loss.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
This thread shows snowHeads at their absolute best. (But I simply can't stop thinking about that poor little chap. It's just so, so sad.)
This thread shows snowHeads at their absolute best. (But I simply can't stop thinking about that poor little chap. It's just so, so sad.)
+1
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
jedster wrote:
Quote:
But if you can do something that helps keep you as a parent feeling happier, and your child safer, but still allows your child the freedom they need to learn about life and gain confidence etc most parents would choose to do what they can to that end?
Yes - perfectly valid but if the risk to your child is really extremely low there is a risk you that you exacerbate your fears by focusing on it.
I completely disagree with your conclusion. By taking precautions I do not exacerbate my fears by focusing on the precautions. When I take part in a hazardous activity such as riding a motorbike, cutting down trees and chopping logs with a chainsaw I asses the risk and take the necessary precautions whatever they may be e.g. protective clothing, helmet, gloves, etc. Most of the time the risk is low but if in the unlikely event something does go wrong I'm more likely to blame myself for not taking all reasonable precautions. The same is applied here. If I was to lose my son on the piste and something happened to him and I knew that I could have done something like put a phone in his pocket or backpack (as I described earlier in this thread) then I would be ridden with guilt.
When my son was 3 he had a habit of running off. One afternoon he and my wife were in a large M&S store. All of a sudden he shot off and rounded an isle. By the time my wife got round the corner he was nowhere in sight. She frantically began searching for him but could not see him. She was panicking and very distraught. The M&S staff were brilliant and put a plan in place. Basically the store was locked-down with no-one allowed to enter or leave. Staff and security were at every exit. After about 10 minutes my wife heard a scream and immediately knew it was our son. A security guard had stopped him at the exit and he had panicked. The staff came and reunited them. My wife still says it was the worst 10 minutes of her life.
jedster wrote:
Quote:
Phone tracking can be very effective. I know from my days organising school trips how easy it is to lose students. We often had instructors lose them. I've lost other adults or got split up myself skiing in groups before. You only need to take different paths at a fork junction or hit some low visibility and things can get very difficult. It's very easy to lose a child in Sainsbury's, let alone up a 1500m mountain.
Alternatively you could just give them a call?
Often I never hear my phone ring and if my son was skiing I wouldn't expect him to stop in a group and try to get it out of his pocket. If I was in a position to track him at least I could get an idea of where he is and head in that direction while trying to call.
If I was to lose my son on the piste and something happened to him and I knew that I could have done something like put a phone in his pocket or backpack (as I described earlier in this thread) then I would be ridden with guilt.
But a lot of the time as parents I think we really insuring ourselves against disappearingly small risks of being "ridden with guilt". My real point here is that this incident is so unusual - no one has yet come up with another similar one with fatal consequences - that we shouldn't fixate on it. There are many other things in life we should pay attention to first if we want to manage risk.
And actually you highlight some examples. We have a woodburner and a few trees which feed it as they need lopping or felling. Some of that I do myself. But as soon as something needs a chainsaw I get a professional in. I did contemplate buying my own but concluded it was better to leave it to someone who uses one every day. The upside (convenience and financial) from doing it myself didn't justify the risks. I cycle a lot and have been tempted by motorbikes from time to time. But the accident stats on motorcyclists are so appalling that I just can't justify it (could if I was single not with responsibilities). Obviously we all make are own choices on risk and reward but there is often a big gap between our perception of risk and the reality.
All that said, I completely accept that there is no real downside to giving a child a phone to track their whereabouts and no particular reason not to. We did consider buying our children those very simple kids phones when they were little (limited to single key dialling of 5 numbers or so) but didn't do it in the end.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
My fervent hope is that the family in this incident will not be ridden with guilt. There is no reasonable expectation when skiing down a blue to the village that your child will disappear down a cliff whatever happens. There's no telling either that any of the steps suggested in these pages would have made any difference to what is already a very unlikely event. We don't know the full circumstances of this event anyway, and speculation is unhelpful. It is desperately, desperately bad luck.
Being separated is a bore though, and if inconvenience or distress that results can be avoided with some of the ideas discussed here, then that is no bad thing, and it may just help in an emergency situation. My view is that considering and managing risk helps me deal with it and not become obsessed by it. I do not, for example, spend commercial flights worrying about the scenarios presented it the safety briefing - 'landing'(!) on water etc. - but I do believe that I could marginally increase my survival chances by prompt action in certain types of emergency because I've thought about what I would do. This is probably more of a false comfort than a false fear...
After all it is free
After all it is free
Trax wrote:
My fervent hope is that the family in this incident will not be ridden with guilt. There is no reasonable expectation when skiing down a blue to the village that your child will disappear down a cliff whatever happens. There's no telling either that any of the steps suggested in these pages would have made any difference to what is already a very unlikely event. We don't know the full circumstances of this event anyway, and speculation is unhelpful. It is desperately, desperately bad luck.
Last edited by After all it is free on Mon 11-10-21 22:15; edited 1 time in total
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b]@anarski[/b], '...perhaps that is verging on the irresponsible, but this sad incident was most definitely not…'
OK…here we go…this post is possibly not going to go down well at all. I will be perfectly prepared to take it down if the consensus is that it should not be publicly available due to it being intrusive or upsetting. However, I have been involved and interested in digging into the causes of breakdown incidents and accidents, such as those that occur in Alpine settings.
'this incident was not irresponsible' - I don't know that anyone can say that. We do not know the facts since there is no record other than from the people there at the time. There may be a legal enquiry, presided over by a local magistrate. This might make progress towards the facts, it may not. For example, it's pretty clear that there has been no progress at all in establishing what lay behind the terrible coach crash in Sierre, and as time ebbs away, establishing the facts less ess likely.
What I have observed is that the reported facts have changed. In the first reports, the claim made by leading rescuers was that the boy was given permission by his mother to do the last run of the holiday, to the village, on his own.
He was also described as 'daring, outgoing, determined' and an experienced skier.
There therefore are issues of what happened, what instructions were given, and whether these were consistent with the situation, the child's ability and knowledge, and the likely behaviour given his temperament. Skiing with children is a careful balancing of skill development, supervision, encouragement to push, direct control, development of knowledge of risk and risk control, and ability to follow set procedures.
The scenario above is close to one which I experienced personally and it resulted in a very dangerous situation. My 7 year had been doing off piste with his class, including work in the trees. At lunchtime, he simply took it upon himself to go down an unfamiliar route from the mid station to the village. He did not inform his teacher - who was waiting for us to arrive - that he had hatched this plan. He disappeared into the wood, and after two minutes, all the mobile phones were going in the village, and he was found propping up the bar at the bottom station, waiting for us to arrive. The 'route' had involved rock- and stump-infested high end terrain, where a multitude of traps and long falls were possible, in an area which would take 100 people a few hours to search. To say that there 'words exchanged' is an understatement. He was then taken through possible scenarios, shown You tube videos of idiotic versus responsible behaviour, and is now, two years later, far more mountain-savvy. In the intervening years he has had a lot of intelligent and supportive unput on mountain safety, all of which he takes very seriously. This has included him doing off-piste leading. He was in no way ready, at 7, having spent time on the hill since he was 2 and a half - including doing ice-work - to do descents on his own, even the tree-lined home run.
My own 7 year old constantly sought jumps and so on, but I would always have to scope the landings, since although he knew he should do this, at 7 a child does not have sufficient development of executive function to do the planning and monitoring required. This is a crucial matter. A child may appear capable and safety conscious and manifest adult sensibilities, but they do not have the development of executive function to do the complex integration of performance, planning, route finding, and risk assessment that is necessary in solo work on the hill.
The story has changed to one of accidental separation:
This is a different scenario, and one which can be anticipated and frequently is experienced on the hill. My children have 100dB whistles and cards with names and numbers. The instruction is, even in very bad weather (i.e. conditions where hypothermia is a possibility), to get to the nearest piste pole, and shout 'arret, assistance' and use the whistle to stop any passing skier, and then do what that skier says. This is still not an absolute answer in terrible conditions, or when the report is very empty, but it is reasonable and clear and, importantly, buys time. The key thing here is establishing a clear procedure which the child can follow the moment they realise that they are separated.
It's possible that the facts will never be known, and the degree of irresponsibility, on whosoever's part, and the possibility of avoidable accident, never established.
FInally, if this is too analytic of the precise circumstances obtaining in this story, then I will immediately take it down.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
jedster wrote:
... a lot of the time as parents I think we really insuring ourselves against disappearingly small risks of being "ridden with guilt". My real point here is that this incident is so unusual - no one has yet come up with another similar one with fatal consequences - that we shouldn't fixate on it. There are many other things in life we should pay attention to first if we want to manage risk.
Precisely. Journalists report unlikely/ unusual things because that's what people want to read. very unlikely/ unusual things are not the best things to base a safe approach to life on. I think prospect theory applies here too: it's a tiny risk, but the consequences are huge so it's hard for people to deal with.
In any case, this child did not die because he became separated from his parents: he made several subsequent decisions which resulted in his fall. Loads of children become separated from their groups all the time..
You need, in my view, to think instead about why this separation resulted death where as millions of others didn't. Teach your kids about why going off piste is a bad idea if you're alone or even in a group or if you're not experienced/ with a guide. Explain that pistes are patrolled for their benefit. Tell them standard etiquette for "getting separated". Teach them to never, ever take their skis off on a slope, and explain why. Teach them that climbing down cliffs is a really bad idea, especially in ski boots. Those things will reduce the very slight risk of a repeat of this, but will have a much more significant effect more broadly.
I'm trying to say, for example:
If your kid doesn't know why she should not go off piste alone, then trying to maintain 100% vigilance is the wrong way to save her from herself: she needs to learn why it's a stupid thing to do so she'll not do it.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
@philwig, …last paras spot on
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Heard about this whilst I was away . . .absolutely tragic, my heart sank when I heard the news. My 7 year old son had his leg fractured in two places by a 15 stone out of control idiot on his first ever skiing holiday in Feb this year, I thought my world had imploded on that day - this is another level altogether. In a weird kind of way my sons accident (although outside my control) could ostensibly be argued as 'expected', ie. if an accident to anyone was going to happen it would be caused directly by other people. This accident however, as a parent, is the stuff of nightmares and something that could never realistically be expected or foreseen. NO right minded parent would ever take their kids skiing if they had to manage a risk of this magnitude . . .
However, whoever, whatever happened - I cannot think of anything worse occurring on what should have been the best and most memorable of times for their family . . .sincere condolences to the parents, and RIP little chap. . . .I'm sure you're floating on the powder clouds wherever you are . . .
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@Belch, er....that's the point...
'...This accident however, as a parent, is the stuff of nightmares and something that could never realistically be expected or foreseen. NO right minded parent would ever take their kids skiing if they had to manage a risk of this magnitude . . .'
Being in the Alpine environment, no matter how seemingly tame always carries 'risks of this magnitude...'
Saas Fee - even on the tamest slopes, ignore one 'no off-piste' sign and cravasse are just waiting to swallow you.
Crans Montana - 10 metres off piste above Chez Erwin, walk through the thin stand of pines, and there's a 300m drop to Tzuzier, straight down.
Off any tame piste and into the trees and a mistake can have extreme consequences.
Or indeed onto a thinly covered rocky section between pistes in Meribel.
Frequently heard in our family:
'Scope the landing!'
'look before you jump back onto the piste'
'are you sure that the rocks on that tree run are sufficiently covered?'
'it's level 3 today'
'stay with us, DO NOT shoot ahead if you are leading'
'You're sweeping today'
'You might be able to do it, but Theo is only a beginner'
'stop at the big yellow sign and wait'
'meet at the station at Marollires if you get ahead'
'your helmet strap needs tightening'
'it's powder to the left but nasty crust beyond, don't go over there'
'THAT is a CONVEX slope, stay well away'
You have to 'manage a risk of this magnitude' every minute of every day if you are in the high peaks. In climbing you monitor each other constantly for mistakes, cock-ups, and equipment failure. And my 9 year old climbs with us and learns this too. It's intrinsic to the activity and its not like playing football in the park. Skiing increasingly is seen as a standard, easy-going sport. Off piste is a draw for youths.
Our friends have a 17 year old who is second in the world in Freeride - we are not a family immune to risk. But managing it is EXACTLY what you need to do.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
I think that this is a tragic one off incident. The majority of fatal accidents happen off piste. There was an interesting thread recently about skiing off piste with children. Mountain safety is a really interesting topic. I've spent about 30 weeks on the slopes in my life, read quite a books, seen lots of documentaries about avalanches and as a physicist, probably have a better understanding than most about forces, friction and fluid dynamics. But does that make me safer on the mountain or more dangerous? Am I likely to try things or venture into areas because I think I know a bit? It's a bit like people who start self diagnosis and medication after reading up on their medical symptoms on Wikipedia. In truth, I know little or nothing about mountain safety. I'm not a guide, nor have I been trained.
I'm not so sure on educating my kids on assessing slope safety. Some people say prepare them for when they're 18 go off on their own and venture off piste but there's a part of me that says teaching a few things may give them the wrong idea about how safe they perceive they are and then make bad choices in the future.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
[quote="valais2"]@Belch, er....that's the point...
@valais2 . . . ? Wasn't replying to your post - just adding my own sentiment.
I'm not so sure I get your tone to be honest - sounds mildly pompous but I could be wrong. . . . . .as parents with kids we all manage risks every day, however I'm not sure that this one could have necessarily have been 'managed' any better given the circumstance. . .a tragic one off accident is a far more accurate explanation.
No matter how experienced your children (and yours sound like experts already) a 7 year old has the brain of a 7 year old period. You can drill him/her to death with instruction, and technically he/she may be adept beyond his/her years - but experience and gut feel for danger are never really fully developed until adulthood IMHO.
I have 3 confident kids . . .one listens to instruction and will always do as he's told - he's also the most competent in all sporting activity. . .the other is in a dream like state for the majority of the time and although physically confident will take risks for kicks, no matter what you tell her . . .the last is a mixture of the other two, but more likely not to ever take a risk unless encouraged by others . . . .would be interested to hear how you'd manage these whilst skiing . . .take a guess which one also got injured . . ?
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@Belch, ...sorry, thought you were. Drat, caught being pompous yet again ... And of course always difficult to communicate tone of voice online.
More exploring the issues than pompous I hope, but never can tell..
I think you have really nailed it with:
'...a seven year old has the brain of a seven year old ...' - very succinctly put. I agree with the notion of 'feel for danger' which in mountaincraft is a very complex mix of accumulated experience and knowledge - and crafted into good habits where possible.
Sounds like your bunch really keep you on your toes - an 'interesting' mix. I would hazard a guess at the middle girl; hope it wasn't too serious. I imagine that you rely on the first to be sensible ('...ok you can do the leading...), watch number two like a hawk and spend half the time shouting ('...don't even think about it! ... Turn back onto the piste!...') and keep number three near you to avoid undue influence (...just stay here while I sidestep down to get your sister out of that snow bank....) - while you sweep.
...and 'pompous' button turned from 11 to 3...
.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@valais2
No worries . . .my own pomposity levels were also in danger of being exposed . . .lol
It was actually my sensible, sporty, obedient child that got pole-axed by a random and his leg fractured in two places . . .he was waiting, as instructed at the bottom of the slope in a que of kids in ski school at the side of the slope watching the 'others' take their turn down the section . . .the other two were wrestling (to the probable dismay of the instructor) in the snow some yards away from where they 'should' have been standing. When I received the text from my wife that the accident had occurred, my immediate thoughts were as yours - 'its my daughter' . . . .my point being that accidents are just that and no matter how well we think we are managing / diminishing the potential, they can happen to anyone - no matter how competent / well drilled.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@8611, ....you might like to see this. We used the same 'hockey stick' method and it proved invaluable on the crowded narrow home run through the trees.
@cameronphillips2000, I too spend too much time away from the hills and peaks to build up the kind of accumulated experience which makes the stock of a UIAGM guide. But reading really helps since knowledge is vital and DOES make a considerable difference. But there are still some people who 'know a lot' who I will no longer ski or climb with, since they are downright dangerous. There's actually plenty to be gained from reading and analytically using youtube. Over the past 24 hours, with my 9 and 11 year old, I have been through the youtube film which was very usefully posted in off piste
I have asked them to talk others through it so that I know how they are thinking about it. I have discussed with them again, amongst a number of things, the signs of a convex slope, the gross error of taking skis off on crust and a slope, why these guys put themselves in danger in the first place, and what they should have done to avoid all the trouble they got themselves into. This is knowledge, pure and simple. And if it's floating there somewhere it many be accessed exactly when it is needed.
But there are places where I would not venture without a guide, knowing that local craft knowledge is vital to be safe. Route-finding in the high peaks is not a simple matter, and easier when mountaineering than when skiing, when you can get into trouble FAST. I am not one for 'dropping in', when that means dropping into the unknown, with total commitment.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
valais2 wrote:
@cameronphillips2000, I too spend too much time away from the hills and peaks to build up the kind of accumulated experience which makes the stock of a UIAGM guide. But reading really helps since knowledge is vital and DOES make a considerable difference. But there are still some people who 'know a lot' who I will no longer ski or climb with, since they are downright dangerous. There's actually plenty to be gained from reading and analytically using youtube. Over the past 24 hours, with my 9 and 11 year old, I have been through the youtube film which was very usefully posted in off piste
I have asked them to talk others through it so that I know how they are thinking about it. I have discussed with them again, amongst a number of things, the signs of a convex slope, the gross error of taking skis off on crust and a slope, why these guys put themselves in danger in the first place, and what they should have done to avoid all the trouble they got themselves into. This is knowledge, pure and simple. And if it's floating there somewhere it many be accessed exactly when it is needed.
But there are places where I would not venture without a guide, knowing that local craft knowledge is vital to be safe. Route-finding in the high peaks is not a simple matter, and easier when mountaineering than when skiing, when you can get into trouble FAST. I am not one for 'dropping in', when that means dropping into the unknown, with total commitment.
i think you probably have a lot more experience of extreme skiing than me. I wouldn't start to educate my kids as to where others went wrong in that I just know know enough but to make anything other than educated guesses. From what I read it's the folk who make educated guesses who put themselves in most danger and most often come a cropper.
Perhaps what has surprised me most, following skiing disasters on this forum this season is just how many very experienced people and guides have lost their lives.
My totally uneducated guess about the video would probably disagree with your analysis. It was simply too steep, not enough snow so very rocky and not really good enough skiers to ski in 'make the turn or die' territory. If your skiing isn't that great then skis off may well be the best option. But then, I freely admit to being no expert so am probably wrong.
@cameronphillips2000, …regrettably there have been a number of surprising deaths in the past two seasons, with a number of fatalities of guides and their clients. The weather has been odd the last two seasons, with a very bad layer right at the base, and then some very bad windslab part the way into the season. Very shocking deaths of experienced guides in Chamonix, and one near us.
Being in the high peaks involves a lot of educated guesses, regrettably, but it goes with the territory. Mountaineering and skiing both take place in an ever-changing setting, and this certainly keeps the 'careful evaluation' sense finely honed. And even then epics cannot always be avoided.
I think your evaluation of the video is very good. My kids and I think that these guys went into the setting without decent local knowledge, or badly misjudged the conditions. Nasty wind crust and thaw-freeze crust. They did not have the right equipment. And clearly not 'make the turn or die' skiers. Way over their heads and diving deeper every second. And then compounding error by not thinking straight and committing more errors. Where I would differ is regarding 'Skis off' - this is a very bad option on steep icy snow - and a number of people in La Grave have died when they immediately slipped having taken off skis and boards. Snowboarding boots are a particular problem since you just can't kick them into some crust.
So, insufficient knowledge of mountain craft, bad route knowledge, bad evaluation of conditions, and poor equipment, and bad step by step evaluation of when to bail … oh, and flunking dealing with things when they went wrong. But glad they survived and glad they posted….can learn a lot from it.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
valais2 wrote:
@8611, ....you might like to see this. We used the same 'hockey stick' method and it proved invaluable on the crowded narrow home run through the trees.
My missus made a pretty telling comment watching that video over my shoulder - that it was not about the kid's enjoyment but the parents (and really their own image of themselves - look at our cool kid, whom they treat as some kind of toy that they want to show off to their friends).
To be honest I'd arrest those parents. Delighted to see a child that young can ski but the things they do in that video, for the sole purpose of making a video that they can associate themselves with, are not in the child's interest. Shouting at a one year old that he'd better turn before he crashes at decent speed into another skier? Wtf?
After all it is free
After all it is free
Quote:
for the sole purpose of making a video that they can associate themselves with, are not in the child's interest.
the sequence where the toddleronastick is hoisted onto a rail and off reminded me forcibly of those dog obedience competitions where the owner runs round encouraging them through hoops and over obstacles.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
8611 wrote:
valais2 wrote:
@8611, ....you might like to see this. We used the same 'hockey stick' method and it proved invaluable on the crowded narrow home run through the trees.
My missus made a pretty telling comment watching that video over my shoulder - that it was not about the kid's enjoyment but the parents (and really their own image of themselves - look at our cool kid, whom they treat as some kind of toy that they want to show off to their friends).
To be honest I'd arrest those parents. Delighted to see a child that young can ski but the things they do in that video, for the sole purpose of making a video that they can associate themselves with, are not in the child's interest. Shouting at a one year old that he'd better turn before he crashes at decent speed into another skier? Wtf?
+1
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
valais2 wrote:
...'Skis off' - this is a very bad option on steep icy snow - and a number of people in La Grave have died when they immediately slipped having taken off skis and boards. Snowboarding boots are a particular problem since you just can't kick them into some crust.
This.
There are very few times when that would be a sensible option on a slope. With skis or board, even if you're sliding down head first you've a better chance of doing something about it with a control surface.
With a snowboard you can't sensibly edge back up hill in most real circumstances. You need to be aware of that as it's a risk. I use hard boots so I can kick steps (handy for Kachina in Taos sometimes), but I'd rather not generally without an axe. Soft booters... not sure what they do.
In deep powder it's not so bad as you're not going to slide (like the video). There you can take your board off, sink up to your waist, then facing up hill, hold the board in front of you and slot it sideways into the snow as far above you as you can get. Once it's in, pull on it with both hands. It works like a dead man, and allows you to wallow uphill. You wouldn't want to do too much of that. In the same circumstances skiers just sidestep.
Oh, here's some stuff on self-arrest with ski poles. I fort everyone knew this stuff. You used to be able to get poles (Black Diamond?) with little ice-axe things on the handles, although unless you really know why you want them you probably don't and I would guess serious skiers just carry an axe (somewhere they can get at it which doesn't threaten their back...).
http://www.epicski.com/a/self-arrest-techniques
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