I've just finished reading a series of posts in 'injuries and rehab' where people have had serious injury and reflected that their bindings might have been too tight 'this may have played a role...the ski shop was chaotic...' and other comments. Although some injuries can occur even when the bindings have been set correctly - the classic 'slow fall' for example - I have seen a number of instances where people have had the bindings set incorrectly by ski shops. Even today, with insurance issues at the fore, it can and does happen.
Can I just take people who are not familiar with DIN through the setting process, so that they know what a shop should be doing, and how they can challenge and get the right DIN?
It's a simple process.
But just before I start, just a note to say that this post is for the vast majority of skiers who depend on the shop to set up their hire skis correctly. It's not for those of you who need carefully-crafted DIN settings on your own quiver of skis - that's a book in it's own right - and full of dark knowledge.
So...here we go
Know your weight exactly in lbs and kgs. Weigh yourself accurately just before you go skiing. Write it on a small credit-card sized piece of card, and place in your wallet/passport.
When you obtain your boots from the shop, or on your own boots, check the sole length. This is a three-digit number in mm, on the inside or outside of the heel of the boot - e.g. 26 boot = 305mm sole length.
Use the sole length to locate the right vertical column, and your weight to get the right horizontal row - this then gives you the right DIN.
You will see the sole length values along the black section at the top of the rossignol chart. eg 305mm on a mondo26 boot falls into the 4th column 291-310.
Then go down the column on the left had side to find the right weight category. eg 140lbs for a 10-stone person like me which puts me in the 126-147 category.
Read down from 291-310 and where this intersects with 126-147 that's my DIN: 4.5
But a quick look at the table also shows a height criterion, so since I am 5' 7" the DIN would be better at 5 and could go to 5.5 and a shop would still be reasonable in setting it there.
When you have worked out your DIN, write it on your piece of card which you keep in your wallet/passport.
I am taking you through this not to encourage you to assume that you can now set DINs for yourself and everyone around you. Rather, you can now check your DINs given to you by a shop and see whether they are anywhere near what they should be. There are cases where you move up an increment and some down but I will not go into the relative complexities around this. But using the table will give you a very good benchmark and indeed this would be the benchmark used by an insurance company in the case of any litigation against a tech or shop.
Note that although this is a Rossignol table, it applies to other basic bindings. Of course, all binding, front and rear, on both skis in a pair, should be at the same DIN.
A final note of complexity - but with a simple solution. The bindings will misbehave if the forward pressure is not right. This is a pre-loading of the binding and indicated by two things - the front wings of the binding moving out very slightly (around 1mm) when a boot is inserted, and by the specific indicator on a specific binding. This can be a small window, a metal tab, or a screw being flush with its housing. There are too many variations - salomon has loads of different indicators, for example - that I cannot alert you to all of these. But you need to ask a tech, after you have checked your DINs - 'can you please just check the forward pressure please, and show me the indicator on this pair of skis'.
Even with ideal DIN settings, slow falls can still be a problem - causing ACL or ankle disruption in particular - and bindings can still pre-release when loaded in certain ways by some impacts. They're not perfect or intelligent. But using the table will help protect against the DINs being way off through error or neglect.
Rental bindings often have levers to adjust bindings; simple pull tabs (eg Salomon) or side levers (Tyrolia). These can get knocked about when skiing or when the skis are put into racks. If your bindings change in feel, become overly tight, or the boot feels loose or weird, don't just carry on. Take the skis back to the tech for a check.
And finally...no binding works well if it is clogged with ice or the sole of the boot has a layer of compacted snow on it. It is very important to keep bindings free of compacted ice - one of my son's new bindings is very prone to this (latest salomon junior binding) and the wet snow at Christmas built up under the rear binding and led to a spate of nasty pre-release. Antidote was meticulously clearing it out once or twice a day with fingers. Compacted snow on the sole of ski boots is very common. Getting a partner to clear it by scraping it off with the rubber handle of a ski pole is often good; or very careful scraping with the sharp end of a ski pole, being careful not to damage the sole of the boot. I see a lot of people kicking the boot onto the bindings to loosen the stuff - bad idea - bindings and boots are strong, but this kicking is just abusing them. You often can scrape, not kick, the compacted snow off a boot sole by using the edge of the rear binding - but scrape don't kick.
Hope this is helpful - I hope that it helps avoid some avoidable injuries....
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Sat 11-04-15 11:46; edited 6 times in total
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@valais2,
Using your Rossignol chart I should set my bindings at 5.5 + 0.5 as I am an 'expert' skier = 6.0 If I set my skis at this DIN setting my skis would be coming off all the time
What about an adjustment for age Salomon recommend a reduced DIN setting for people over 60, do Rossignol
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
This is all fine if you can trust the DIN window on the bindings. What the binding shows is not necessarily correct.
Bindings are mechanical devices that need checking on testing machines ... and/or acquire the ability to 'self test' the bindings (at least the toe units) by putting the ski on edge on the flat and twisting out yourself.
This two-page paper by Dr Mike Langran in Aviemore (ski-injury.com) has useful advice, including self-testing:
Great post, and I do think it is worth knowing how shops work out your din setting and talking to the ski tech about it.
Just one thing I think is misleading is how.much you move your dins up as you get better. The din chart is set for a beginners din.
Moving up half a din for an expert skier is incorrect. On the din chart I use we move down a row for an intermediate (someone who skis a variety of speeds and terrains. So basically onto red runs) move 2 rows down for aggressive skiers who ski fast and on steep terraine. So at my weight of 75 km and boot length of 306 that places me on. 5.5. I go down 2 rows to 8. This is Defiantly correct for me as I feel they come off when they should but stay on when they should. In my opinion having bindings too loose is as dangerous as too tight particular if your skiing fast on steep Slope. Also worth noting that most din charts won't go over 10 yet a lot of people ski above that (look at top freeride and race bindings that start at 9 or 10)
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@valais2, good post.
I think it's important that with the exception of total beginners that all skiers know their correct DIN, half a notch up or down won't be that significant. If you own your own skis then knowing the forward pressure indication is also wise.
Dr Mike Langran's advice re self testing has a distinct flaw in my opinion, if your binding is too loose it will still pass the test, if it's too tight it will fail the test but maybe also damage your knee in the process. If you have any misgivings as to the operation of your bindings then have them tested on a properly calibrated machine.
One last thought, when watching the techs at the start gate of a downhill, I noticed that every boot front and back was cleaned with a brush just before the racier clipped in. If your boots are worn or dirty then it will also affect the correct operation of the release.
I don't think getting the right settings is all that easy. I have had skis come off when I aggressively side slipped down a steep icy slope into some iced ruts which I fully expected to ski out of. The resulting fall was hairy - I was whizzing down an icy slope, on my back, head first towards trees. Although I managed to self arrest, I broke a fibia, probably by clouting an ice lump as I was digging in, and the shock going through my boot and breaking the bone. So, when I returned to skiing I upped the settings. They were fine until I was skiing through deep snow between trees, and must have skied over some sort of hidden hole. The tail of the ski dug in and got trapped, the binding did not release, and I ruptured my Achilles tendon as I fell. So, especially since I now ski only on piste, I have downed the settings again. However, I can think of some runs where I really, really would not have wanted a ski to be prematurely released. Therefore I think that the answer is that, if you have sufficient experience, you should adjust the binding setting according to the terrain you are skiing on.
As a footnote, I have been free from skiing injuries in recent years, but during this year's birthday bash I was skiing down in flat light. Everything was fine until I decided that the scene was perfect so that Mrs a could see a picture of me against a background of snow-laden trees. I looked round so that I could see if I could flag down my skiing companion, whilst at the same time pulling in to the side of the piste. Big mistake. One ski went into a soft pile of near-invisible snow, the other didn't, and I fell. Once again the tail binding did not release (and this was on a setting of 6.5) - presumably because the loading was progressive rather than impulsive. My physio later told me that the only thing that saved me from a ruptured ACL was my ski mojo. As it was, I just pulled a muscle, though it was very painful, and the bruising a few days later was spectacular. Luckily I was able to ski down pretty much on one ski using the good leg, thanks to exercises enforced on me by easiski.
I do occasionally have my bindings checked on the machine at The Piste office - they have always been fine.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Thanks all .... Just to be clear, this post was for people who have little or no tech background, giving them an idea of what to do to avoid getting inappropriate DINs from often over-busy hire shops.
And just for info, I mithered about whether I should in a footnote go into the some of the background of setting on an individual basis but that's really not why I posted. I set up bindings for people hucking cliffs as well as nailing icy slalom, so go way beyond the bounds of the recommended DINS - but as interesting as all that is it's not what the original post was intended to do - which is to enable relative beginners or non-OCD skiers to ensure that a shop does not give them inappropriately set up bindings. I'll edit the original post to make this clear.
Very useful point re clearing bindings, I will add a note on that to the original post.
After all it is free
After all it is free
The only time I have had injuries from a fall (apart from landing on a big rock after a jump ) it was due to a very slow twisting scenario in the first few years of skiing. I always start low with a new pair of skis or buildings and then work up until pre releases don't occur. This can be different for different skis and also depending on what you use them for. I am 76kg and just under 5'10" and have found that on my fat powder skis I need to have the heel set 0.5 higher than the toe for riding rough ground as sudden dips in heavy snow were causing me to pop out of the heels.
My slalom skis are set 1 higher than my usual setting, while my all mountain skis have the lowest setting. I'd prefer not to be hitting double figures on any DIN setting but for some situations anything lower leads to too many releases which as said above, can bring significant risks into play. You need to be able to make a reasonable risk assessment though, as with most things in life it is a compromise.
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@valais2, Good point, I've seen a lot of people stamping snow into the front of the bindings as they click in, this can also lead to having a lump of hard ice around and inside the toe section in some temperatures. Can't be good for consistent releases
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@valais2, once you are happy you have a definitive guide for basic settings it might be an idea strip off the replies and make it a sticky.
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Good point ... I have a hunch that a lot of injuries could be avoided by this simple check by those hiring skis.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@valais2, a helpful post. A friend sustained a nasty injury this year because her ski didn't release. She had been on a diet and lost 2 stone during the year but not had her din settings checked. Worth bearing in mind if people have lost or put on weight.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
I promised myself that the i would not stick my oar in........ but here goes...none of the currently available downhill alpine bindings protect against acl injury. The lateral release mechanism is based at the 'toe end', so when a lateral force is applied the axis of rotation to achieve the release is through the tibia; the acl joins/connects tibia to femur. This twisting of tibia on femur is the major (although not the only )mechanical force responsible for acl rupture in all scenarios, apart from hyperextension of the knee. Bizarrely as far as acl safety is concerned dynafit pin bindings may have an advantage as their lateral release is based at the back. This is the main driving force behind the development of this binding http://www.kneebinding.com/KB-HomePage.aspx
I think that a minor deviation from recommended DIN setting have no significant impact on acl injury risk, and possibly also on ankle fractures caused by twisting.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Great post @valais2. Can you clarify the part about knowing your weight. How much clothing or other skiing gear should be included. There could be a few kilos difference across the range from naked weight, through indoor clothing, outdoor clothing, skiing clothing, with ski boots, to with ski boots and backpack etc.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@Adrian, yes, interesting image of 'the naked skier' suddenly cones to mind. There indeed could be a few kilos difference on exactly the basis you describe - particularly when I am lugging vast amount of spare kids' kit around - or vast amounts of water when going high. Hmmmm...think this would be a percentage increase of about 12pc - I weigh 66kg - backpack 4kg, jacket and trousers 2kg and the rest about 1kg. 12pc is pretty marginal in terms of the variation of physics acting on bindings so with some relief I don't think it's that significant in actuality - but I stand to be corrected.
The physics of what you are implying are actually quite interesting. When skiers' weight goes up, for a given sole length, so does the DIN stated. But it goes up because of the twisting forces acting on the binding - more weight on the lower DIN would lead to premature release. So up goes the DIN, but the assumption is that bone and joint mass also goes up with the heavier skier. So...upping the DIN because you have a bigger pack on will put extra pressure on smaller joints...but the extra weight will lead to increased chance of pre release. So it will be a careful balancing act, as always with DINs.
Of course, weight could go up for for a small boned person who has been pigging out for the summer....
But none of that...re your original point, I think probably too small a pc to make a really significant diffference.
Many thanks.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@valais2, don't forget weight of your ski boots!
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Great information. Thank you.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Bear in mind when considering such frippery as rucsacs the rather crude scaling of adjustment on the bindings. I'd suggest +/- 0.25-0.5 of a DIN number to be the general error.
This isn't (and doesn't need to be) an exact procedure...
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Sat 11-04-15 16:14; edited 1 time in total
@Markymark29, good point...but thinking about it, the mass of the boot is very near the point of rotation (ie the binding) and probably thus makes little difference...but a helmet...no that's a big weight right away from the pint of rotation - oh no....another anti helmet issue (do helmets cause pre release shock horror) ... And I thought the helmet controversy went away in 2014....
Interesting post. I wish I'd had it with me in Val d'Isere last week.
We told the ski shop that we (a family of 5) wanted to mostly ski off piste. We also told them that we ski aggressively. I felt sure the technician wasn't listening to me, so I repeated myself. Twice.
Out on the slopes, we all suffered repeated early releases. Some of these were inconvenient; others were painful. Unexpectedly losing a ski in deep powder in a couloir is not a pleasant experience.
Google suggested that the DIN settings were way adrift of what we should have had. A return visit to the ski shop fixed the problem, but at the expense of considerable inconvenience and discomfort. Next time, I'll check the family's bindings before we leave the shop. I suggest everyone should.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Must say I think everyone should be aware of their DIN ranges. I have had a number pf conversations over mine and invariably have to waiver out in the US due to ignoring the script.
After all it is free
After all it is free
I made sure I knew mine after a colleague had a very nasty accident resulting in a spiral leg fracture as a result of her DIN settings being wrong and her skis not releasing.
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The original premise for the post is a good one. We always make a point of telling customers at our dry slope what the DIN number is that we have worked out for them, using Salomon's chart and all the relevant information. They can then take this information with them to the hire shop when they go away.
I found an Android app that asks you all the relevant questions and then calculates the DIN for you, taking into account age and ability as well as the usual height, weight and sole length. It comes up with the same numbers as the Salomon DIN chart, it's called SKI DIN SETTINGS (very unimaginative!), by someone called Skywork, and I've used it to check quite a few people's settings who I've been skiing with.
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@karin, hardly needs an "app" to do some very basic arithmetic
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jocrad wrote:
I made sure I knew mine after a colleague had a very nasty accident resulting in a spiral leg fracture as a result of her DIN settings being wrong and her skis not releasing.
This is a rare injury in skiing, usually indicative of either the bindings being set wrong or the bindings being mechanically incapable of releasing properly - due to a manufacturing fault or dirt between boot surface and binding interface etc..
When I worked as an expert witness in skiing I dealt with a case where a UK skier had bought brand new skis and bindings. The DIN settings were correct, but the toe unit of a binding on one ski could not release because it was jammed (due to a manufacturing fault). Maybe the technician who mounted the bindings never performed a simple release test on the bench.
This is why testing (or at least self-testing by the user) is a good idea. There are various ways bindings can be tested.
As above, DIN settings are a scale in a window. Just like the speedometer on a car ... they don't necessarily tell you the truth.
But as you imply, I like to use the tables and accumulated knowledge - there's a din table above the hall table in our chalet and one in each toolbox...simple.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
I think I'm one of the people mentioned from the injury thread talking about DIN settings. Actually, I was skiing on the DIN suggested by all those calculators for me. Sometimes accidents just happen. I don't know that a lower DIN would have prevented my injury (DG, a spiral fracture isn't common, but it's not rare - the x-Ray techs usually ask me, "skiing, I assume?"). Having said that I've moved down one for the time being.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Its not a bad thing to know what your setting should be and check what the tech has dialled it in correctly. You dont need to know the whys and wherefores as to how its come by and its another matter to argue the toss as to what they recommend but the guys in the ski shop are only human and can make mistakes so its no bad thing to check what they do. And to check that the bindings actually release, I've seen quite a few places where they pop the boot in to check the fit but dont really check the release.
I've seen some unfortunate results in another adventure sport, namely scuba diving, when people who should and could check for themselves (they are actually trained to in order to get their licenses, formal training for a dangerous sport now there's a thought) their decompression levels, didnt but relied on a local "divemaster" and ended up with the bends, luckily a rather mild case.
@valais2, thanks for starting the topic and to those who have added more information and the other nuances. Before getting onto this site I wasnt aware of the importance of the boot sole condition and so will take better care of ours now.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
David Goldsmith wrote:
As above, DIN settings are a scale in a window. Just like the speedometer on a car ... they don't necessarily tell you the truth.
Actually... they do ;) DIN is standard not just something imaginary numbers, and if binding is using this standard, then it needs to release at exactly same force as any other binding set to same "number" and using that standard. Malfunctioning bindings are different thing, but if binding works, then DIN 10 releases at exactly same force on any binding using this standard.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@primoz, but, even if the bindings are accurate at manufacture, it is a good idea to check that they remain accurate throughout their life. I get mine checked on the test equipment at the Piste Office run by Jon Coster. Personally, I like the bindings to be checked when they are new, too.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
I had a spate of pre-releases last season (which was odd, because the season before my skis were fine - I think the lesson here is to get it checked regularly?). I was less than impressed though when my ski dropped of the chairlift and the attendant saw this happen and put it on the next one.....I then assumed they might phone up and tell them to stop it at the top so I could get off safely. No such luck - I had to ski off on one ski, ending in an all to predictable crash when I tried to turn on one ski to slow down to avoid the crowds of people loitering!
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
shefmarkh wrote:
I had a spate of pre-releases last season (which was odd, because the season before my skis were fine - I think the lesson here is to get it checked regularly?).
Or you just ski differently this year, then you did last year. And that's far more possible option, then bindings get bad in one yet ;) There's too many things on which binding settings depends on, to be able to put them together into simple chart. Weight, boot size, and 2-5 classes of skiing "expertise" are not even close to be enough to have bindings set correctly. As soon as you start skiing a bit (or a lot) faster and more aggressive then average, there's no single chart (at least not that I would ever see one) to have things set correctly and still safe. And yes, sometimes, pre-release can be just as dangerous as bindings not releasing.
...Google suggested that the DIN settings were way adrift of what we should have had. A return visit to the ski shop fixed the problem, but at the expense of considerable inconvenience and discomfort...
Why didn't you just adjust them at one of the "tool benches" situated at many lifts?
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Quote:
As soon as you start skiing a bit (or a lot) faster and more aggressive then average, there's no single chart (at least not that I would ever see one) to have things set correctly and still safe
Surely the idea that there is one magic safe DIN setting is ballcocks anyway?
I think I'm quite conservative with my DIN settings (compared to many keen skiers) but they have been creeping up over the years to avoid pre-releases - currently use 8 which is about right on the chart with "2 rows down" adjustment. At least for my alpine boots. My AT boots are into the next boot sole length category and 2 rows down that would suggest 7 would be more appropriate.
I'm not sure that there is a perfect setting though - even if I ski quite fast and dynamically most of the time, there are still times when I will be moving slowly. As I understand it, I am increasing my risk of tearing my ACL at low speed in order to reduce pre-releases. It is all a compromise
A few years ago (while searching on the Internet for some something different) I came across a Salomon technical manual containing tables for binding settings.
I was surprised to see that there were two sets of tables - one for France and the other for the rest of the world - with the French tables showing lower DIN settings (from memory by about 1 or 2). The explanation given was something like the French medical authorities had concluded that most injured skiers had too high settings and therefore had recommended lower settings than were generally used.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
No need to worry about DIN settings with tele bindings. Most of them are designed not to release
After all it is free
After all it is free
I'm about about 80Kg.
DIN about 8.
Notice any correlation?
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@under a new name, (a long way back up the conversation, been at work all day)No, I realise that, not for anyone who understands the chart, but it could be useful for the average skier who doesn't know the ins and outs of how many rows to go up or down the table depending on age, ability, and inequality between height and weight?
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@dch, I do remember our technical manual having 2 charts, with a different one for France because they added gender to the mix and put women on slightly lower settings. We were led to believe it was because women tend to ski with more brains and finesse, compared to the testosterone that men tend to use . Not sure if the current manual still has the 2 charts.
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
) it was due to a very slow twisting scenario in the first few years of skiing. I always start low with a new pair of skis or buildings and then work up until pre releases don't occur. This can be different for different skis and also depending on what you use them for. I am 76kg and just under 5'10" and have found that on my fat powder skis I need to have the heel set 0.5 higher than the toe for riding rough ground as sudden dips in heavy snow were causing me to pop out of the heels.
but here goes...none of the currently available downhill alpine bindings protect against acl injury. The lateral release mechanism is based at the 'toe end', so when a lateral force is applied the axis of rotation to achieve the release is through the tibia; the acl joins/connects tibia to femur. This twisting of tibia on femur is the major (although not the only )mechanical force responsible for acl rupture in all scenarios, apart from hyperextension of the knee. Bizarrely as far as acl safety is concerned dynafit pin bindings may have an advantage as their lateral release is based at the back. This is the main driving force behind the development of this binding 
