how funny, we posted at exactly the same time. I heard about it from a local around 10:30 - should have posted a SHs Scoop then shouldn't I.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@under a new name, this is correct. We both posted the same news at 14.09, according to the sH timestamp. I spent the preceding minutes preparing it for SKI.HUB, but it's clear that the French media had the story within 30 minutes of the incident - i.e. by around 10.00-10.30 UK time.
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We have to worry about random skiers, avalanches and NOW PLANES!!!
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@c44rver, Don't forget boulders rolling down roads!!
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We skied past on the Proclou piste at around 0945. It ws hard to see what had happened with a plane there lots of pisteur activity and a large crowd of rubberneckers.
Plane still there at 1600 when we headed home.
Hope for a good outcome for the skier.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
The Altiport runway is only 100m away, parallel to the Proclou piste on the other side of the chairlift. Seems like a case of missing the runway
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
a plane is often a hard thing to remove without a runway. Air accident investigators are probably going to have do some very thorough checks too in case, heaven forbid, the skier doesn't make it. By the sound of the injuries it sounds very much like a prop strike. Really hope the skier is OK.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@shep, aborted take off apparently!
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Cool. I too was wondering how they're going to get it out of there.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
4 minute vid of a flight from the Altiport on this YouTube link. Not difficult to see how a problem on take off or landing could have been so much more serious had it been during the half term.
4 minute vid of a flight from the Altiport on this YouTube link. Not difficult to see how a problem on take off or landing could have been so much more serious had it been during the half term.
@cameronphillips2000, but typically of static aircraft and rapidaly moving prop. Mind you, I can imagine all sorts of unpleasant scenarios here.
Sounds pretty terrible. Hope she recovers. Time will tell what went wrong.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Pretty grim- we were over in Chatel so missed the incident and aftermath. No drama on the mountain at all.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Seems it was a prop strike. I'd imagine the the pilot had to put it down due to power loss but still had some amount of thrust and kept the prop spinning to use whatever was left to find the safest spot. Shame they couldn't have killed the prop before getting near people. A hugely risky emergency landing place given the position of the chairlift. It could have been so so much worse.
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"The plane, which was surrounded by safety nets, was to be moved Thursday night, and the ski track closed until the end of May."
Best book my Avoriaz Ski hol for June.
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Frosty the Snowman wrote:
"The plane, which was surrounded by safety nets, was to be moved Thursday night, and the ski track closed until the end of May."
Best book my Avoriaz Ski hol for June.
May? Seems like a serious investigation is going to take place then. Having the run off runs into crowded pistes may be reviewed, having said that, most major world airports have run off zones into major motorways.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
cameronphillips2000 wrote:
May? Seems like a serious investigation is going to take place then. Having the run off runs into crowded pistes may be reviewed, having said that, most major world airports have run off zones into major motorways.
Yep Heathrow the M25 Southampton M27 several onto the M1?
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
boredsurfin wrote:
cameronphillips2000 wrote:
May? Seems like a serious investigation is going to take place then. Having the run off runs into crowded pistes may be reviewed, having said that, most major world airports have run off zones into major motorways.
Yep Heathrow the M25 Southampton M27 several onto the M1?
Although the type of planes that take off at those airports have more engines and far more reliable engines.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
I can never understand why French resorts like Avoriaz, Tignes, Meribel etc allow airports in ski resorts (other than the fact that it gives rich oligarchs maximum posing value when talking to their pals over a magnum of Mumm) and also I guess that these type of folks wouldn't put up with the road links.
Planes and skiers/ boarders are quite a potent mix, big potential for carnage if it goes wrong.
I can see the need for quick evacuation. But what's wrong with helicopters like in Switzerland and Austria, these guys can have you down the valley to specialist clinics much quicker anyway.
My thinking is it's an outdated thing and the French need a rethink......that said hopefully the injured person survives OK.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
The area where the plane landed is the Avoriaz Golf course in the Summer.
Ironically the club captian ( well he was a few years ago ) is a Commercial Pilot.
Best wishes to all affected.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Still no news whether her arm could be saved….
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@Markymark29, I can't quite see how it's outdated. Helicopters have been around a very long time. Helivac is not a new thing. The reason that they have altiports is because people want them and use them. It's not just Oligarchs by a very, very long way indeed. On the basis that action should be taken following an accident, then surely they should ban off-piste skiing? I think people have been hurt on chairlifts as well. Ban them. How many accidents affecting skiers/boarders caused as a result of aircraft in the last 10 years? Close to zero I expect.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
A simple barrier in a run off area would easily stop this happening again. Having watched the video it does seems you have to climb out of the airport over the trees whereas somewhere like courchevel, the land simply falls way below you and you could glide to the value below and pick your spot
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@foxtrotzulu, Think you've misinterpreted my point - I agree that helicopters and helivac have/ has been about for a long time, my suggestion is that this should be the favoured means of air evacuation out. I don't disagree that people use altiports, very nice I'm sure, my point here is that if safety of your average skier is compromised (even if only once) by virtue of an accident like the one above it's time for a rethink IMO My personal view is that planes landing and taking off in winter resorts adjacent to pistes is not a great idea, especially given the fact that the resorts are getting busier and busier, and presumably the altiports are getting busier also, on that basis I DO think its an outdated concept, only so much room at altitude - is an airport more or less important than a safe wintersports area should be debated by the owners of the resorts, and if an altiport is important then put risk assessed safety measures in place.
Quote:
On the basis that action should be taken following an accident, then surely they should ban off-piste skiing? I think people have been hurt on chairlifts as well. Ban them.
Back to the point of the thread - i'm not suggesting banning altiports (especially given that they are there and a USP to some big-hitters they are hardly going to do that), merely suggested its time for a re-think, eg; potentially closing nearby pistes between certain hours whilst planes land and take-off, landing before and after lifts working hours, putting more/ improved warning signs up etc etc......who knows? Surely when a plane lands on a piste and badly injures an unsuspecting person enjoying their winter holiday its time to review what's going on and come up with a plan isn't it?
I can never understand why French resorts like Avoriaz, Tignes, Meribel etc allow airports in ski resorts...
That's largely irrelevant. It doesn't seem the pilot mistook the piste for the runway but rather made a forced emergency landing. Had they taken off from say Bex airport in Switzerland, 10nm to the north east of Avoriaz heading to Annemasse airport, 20nm west of Avoriaz in France they may well have routed via Avoriaz, as a ski resort on top a mountain probably makes a reasonable visual reference. Now had they been forced to make an emergency landing at that point in their flight they would have aimed for one of the pistes - as they are a darn sign more inviting that the cliffs/rocks/trees that surround them!
When you're in a lump of aluminium that's losing it's fight with gravity you don't have a lot of choice over where/when you land. In this case he was also at low altitude so had even less time to pick a landing point. Given 10s to decide do you fly in to the trees, probably killing you and your passengers or try to land on the piste hoping it's not too busy and people are able to get out you way?
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@Markymark29, I thought helicopters were the preferred method for evacuation anyway?
Two questions:
1. If you switched to helicopter only access to the resort, how would that improve safety? Helicopters are notoriously more dangerous than light aircraft.
2. Off-piste skiing has been known to trigger avalanches in which other innocent victims are caught up. Isn't that the same thing and requires the same response?
You may think that
Quote:
planes landing and taking off in winter resorts adjacent to pistes is not a great idea
, but unless there are other incidents of which I'm unaware then I'd say the evidence suggests this is a tragic, but isolated, incident. By all means review the operation and see if it is unreasonably risky, but
@Mjit, AFAIK it was an engine failure on take-off.
Most planes and runways have a point of no return. Once you're past a certain speed, you have to commit to lifting off, as you won't stop in time. The fatal Concorde flight being a classic example.
What doesn't help here is runway of snow and it also slope downhill. Had this problem occurred on a tarmac or flat runway the pilot could have likely stopped it. One of the pres reports suggests it never got airborne, just kept on sliding down the mountain wit the pilot struggling to stop it. Hence, a barrier after the runway, a bit down the hill would have helped.
Many commercial airports have an EMAS system which is essentially a strip of runway at teh end which is designed to collapse under the weight of the aircraft so the wheels digs in and stop the plane. They used to use gravel traps but the stones flew up, ruptured wings and fuel tanks and caused fatal fires. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engineered_materials_arrestor_system
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@foxtrotzulu,
Your points..(1) no objection to folk flying in and out by helicopter, (or plane for that matter) so long as they aren't near pistes (2) I don't know what offpiste caused avalanches have got to do with an air collision but if you are referring to the fact that offpiste activities should be risk assessed then clearly yes they should by those involved, but IMO 2 completely differing considerations. The latter is common to all resorts to a greater or lesser degree, however planes landing in resort is specific to a few resorts only.
There was an incident a few years ago (in Italy I think) where a military jet fighter hit some cables and brought a ski lift down killing folks, which is different again (however outwith the control of the resort). On the occasion above it states that the plane passed UNDER a chairlift and narrowly missed people on the slopes, indicating that the result could have been much worse......and presumably if the plane was operating from the resort the resort has some responsibility? Anyway don't suppose much will change so wasting my (and your) time debating it!
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Most of the Altiport's I've seen, with the exception of Meribel and Courchevel seem to about club flyer types rather than oligarchs. There seem to be quite a few dotted around, Tignes, La Ros, Val Thorens, wasn't aware of the Avoriaz one though.
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What I heard, back in 1988, was that it was installed to please one of the original Avoriaz investors who was frequently found flying around the area.
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