Ski school v private instruction (New Generation Courchevel)

A snowHead

People always seem to ask which is better. I've just been fortunate to have a back-to-back ski school (well, clinic) followed by private instruction, so hopefully can offer some insights and comparisions between the two methods of learning.

As you probably saw from other threads, my recent trip to Courchevel was successful in more than one way! The snow conditions weren’t the best, but still eminently skiable. I really wanted to get my skiing kick started again after a poor year last year, so booked a two-afternoon “performance” clinic with New Generation (three hours each on Monday & Tuesday), followed by a two hour private lesson on Wednesday afternoon.

I have always been a big proponent of private, or one-to-one, instruction versus ski school. I thought this would therefore be the perfect opportunity to compare the benefits and experiences of the two methods. Having said that, I should probably state that the New Gen performance clinics aren’t quite ski school – they are typically smaller classes (we had a large class of five people) and all the students are a very specific level – I was in a level six clinic, which equated to comfortable on most blacks, except the really steep or really bumpy. I must admit that I was a bit worried about whether I was in too high a group at first (having only skied for just over four weeks up until then), but it turned out to be just right.

The clinic started off by agreeing what we were going to be doing on the first day (we decided what to do the second day at the end of the first lesson). The first day was taken up with getting us all using our skis more – basically, high-speed skiing. Trying to emulate the heavy carves you put in when you’re totally in control at speed and using your skis to their maximum. Of course, we never quite got to slalom standards, but the improvement was amazing. By the middle of the session, none of us could ski blues properly. We were falling over occasionally, and at one point I think every one of us thought we’d lost any skill we previously possessed! (Despite having demonstrated our “worthiness” to be in the group by whizzing down a bumpy red earlier trying to keep up with the instructor). However, it was a case of unlearning the way we were skiing and forcing our brains and bodies to relearn the correct technique.

It was interesting that the techniques we were taught were actually quite opposite to those we learnt when learning to carve. We all thought we carved our turns, but it wasn’t until we finished the session that we could look back on the way we were skiing and realised there may have been some carving, but it was far from a pure carve. Weight transfer was far less emphasised, instead ankle flex and getting those knees moving uphill was the focus. But by the end of the session we were all carving happily down pretty much any red run, taking the crappy snow conditions in our stride as we had a final burn from the top of Saulire all the way down to the 1650 link (a fair run without a break). So day one was a success – I went back to the apartment feeling like I’d really progressed.

The second afternoon we’d decided on bumps as the next victim. Unfortunately, this of course required a pretty much diametrically opposite technique to what we’d learnt the previous day, everything suddenly becoming – knees together, compression turn on pole plant and slide down the back of the mogul. As someone who’d only learnt to ski a few years ago (on carvers) the ability to skid my turns wasn’t something that had been ingrained in my from birth. I had real problems. Of the other skiers in the clinic, there was only one other who had a similar perspective to me – he was a converted snowboarder, so again, had grown up with carving. This would be my only complaint of the clinic method to teaching – because we all had different problems to overcome in our technique (unlike the previous day, where it was more or less the same problem for all of us) the instructor couldn’t really afford each of us the time necessary to correct those problems. We would ski down a bump field one-by-one and at the end of each of our runs, she would comment on how we’d done. It was good, but I really felt that there was no substitute for private tuition on this.

Still, at the end of the session, I really felt like I’d learnt the basics of how to do compression turns and began to get the feeling of sliding down the back of the mogul. It was far from perfect – in fact, far from tidy – but at least there was improvement. However, I still came away from that second session feeling a little disappointed. Probably because I knew that if I had had private tuition, I’d be further on.

So, the following afternoon I met up with my instructor for the private lesson. It was only two hours and cost the same price as the two afternoon clinic (which lasted six hours in total). However, I had the full attention of the instructor. After asking what I wanted lessons on, we set off looking for easy bumps to practice technique on. Unlike in the previous clinic, we didn’t fire straight off with compression turns over the crests of the bumps. Instead, I learnt (or more correctly, relearnt, since it was what I always tried to do before the previous clinic) how to ski between the bumps. Obviously a lot more difficult when the bumps are close together and steep, but still a great technique. Half the lesson or so was on this, then we switched to compression turns. I really felt that my skiing came on a lot more in these two hours than the previous three. Clearly I benefited from having had a three hour headstart the previous day, but the constant feedback from the instructor was crucial in developing these new techniques.

At the end of the lesson, I really felt that I could go away and ski bumps. Not necessarily the infamous “Sous Télé” couloir, but certainly none of the blacks should hold any fear for me now. It was more about confidence as well. The instructor looked at the way I skied and how I picked things up. By breaking down the techniques in a way that seemed intuitive for me, he has given me a toolkit that I can use to reassemble my skiing should I have one of those “I’ve completely forgotten how to do this” moments at the top of a couloir or bump field.

So, which would I recommend? Well, it depends what you want to get out of the lessons. I would best describe the two methods as:

Ski schools/clinics give you BREADTH of knowledge. You have longer skiing with an instructor who can cover more technique, but not in as personalised a way. It is more a case of, “I’ve given you the seeds of skill, no go off and grow them.”

Private tuition gives you DEPTH of knowledge. You have less time with the instructor, so cannot hope to cover quite as much technique as in a five day ski school. However, their time is your time – 100%, so they will nitpick and refine continually so that at the end of the lesson you have picked up a lot more skill and knowledge, albeit about a narrower field. I’d liken this to being given a sapling – you’re further along the path, but cannot grow as many trees as with a packet of seeds.

The cost of the two (clinic and private) was identical. €135 for six hours of clinic, or two hours of private instruction. Which would I go for again? I think the private instruction. Which would I recommend for others – it depends what you want, depth or breadth.

A snowHead

Masopa, good comments

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Very good review. I've toyed at the idea of private lessons, but the "I can't ski Powder" thread and this have convinced me that it's the way to go.

You need to Login to know who's really who.

Masopa, I'd only add to this that it also depends on the clinic. My recent experience with Masterclass in Alpe D was that even though we were a group of 5 we each got personal instruction on how to improve our own technique - it was very personalised to everyones specific needs.

Recently I'd always gone for a private lesson rather than a group and Masterclass changed my view on that. As with everything it does seem to depend on the Instructor's own way of doing things.

I would add....no matter how good you think you are it's well worth having a couple of hours tuition every now and then - everyone has something to learn. So many of my friends think because they can get down blacks they don't need to bother with lessons but it makes such a difference and until you've done it you don't realise how much you can improve!

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

homphomp, good point. I was actually very pleased with the clinic, it's just for certain things I think private instruction is still a more efficient way to go (at least for me). With the high-speed skiing session, we were all making similar mistakes and it was much easier for the instructor to offer personalised tuition.

With the bump skiing though, you could just tell that she didn't have time to fine tune each of our techniques to the point I was hoping for. She certainly gave us individual appraisals and pointers, but clearly three hours between five people is less time than two hours for just me. It was probably more that I am used to private tuition, so was hoping to get three hours' worth of "private" improvement out of a clinic - probably not realistic.

You'll need to Register first of course.

We usually go for the best of both worlds....a shared private lesson with Mr HH & me. Halves the cost and as we're at the same standard we can really benefit from a couple of hours dedicated tuition. Wouldn't work if we weren't so close in skiing standard though....so find a mate and share the benefits!

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

Good thinking homphomp. The boss is not quite at the same standard (and doesn't like taking lessons), so I'll have to find a friend to take with me. Myself and a few mates from school are planning a skiing trip next January, one of whom should be a similar level I think...

After all it is free

masopa, this is all very helpful. I, my 22 year lad and my 14 year old daughter learnt together from scratch with ESF at Alps D'h 2 years ago. Then with Supreme at Courchevel last year. In a week's time, we'll be in Belle Plagne. I've taken a risk and spent loads of dosh on 4 X 4hour morning private lessons for the 3 of us with Magic in Motion (recommended by Evolution 2!) because we're at the same level, at the moment. We're confident on all blues and most reds. The danger is that our instructor becomes just a guide, but I suppose its for us, not him, to say exactly what we want to achieve. Incidentally, the chap's coming to the hotel the evening we get there to discuss our objectives. Fingers crossed! I'll let you know how we get on.

Brilliant - good luck and I'm sure you'll have a great time. The good British-speaking ski schools are in such hot competition, I'm sure you'll get out of it exactly what you want.

Let us know how it goes...

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

masopa, Perfectly put. Nitpicking in private lessons is spot on. Having just come back from a lesson in Les Arcs where my skiing was nitpicked to pieces, I am now beginning to put the bits back together again in something that actually resembles skiing. I would probably have got away with keeping at least some of my bad habits in a group....

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

That was my feeling exactly! But you do end up a better skier at the end of it - the pain is worth it! (Or at least it was for me).

snow reports

masopa, good comments. I toyed with the idea of 'clinics' for this year but ended up having private lessons again. I have not skied in a 'group' learning environment since my experience of the ESF ski school many moons ago which (like many others I now know!) very nearly put me off for life. Maybe I'll try this next year.

However with regard to private lessons I agree. Nitpicking is absolutely the right term! I had 3 lessons recently with Ski Academy in 1850 and the instructor was fantastic. We had bad weather so stayed on easy to moderate terrain and worked worked worked at technique! He picked up on every last little thing at one point I was brain frazzled trying to concentrate on about 6 things at once, but then it came together!

Another point about private tuition which I think is a great selling point for it - we took our friends 2 complete beginners, they had 3x3hr private lessons with a great instructor from Ski Academy and they did brilliantly, by the end of 3 days they skied like 2 week skiers!! Money well spent I think Very Happy

For those of you who don't know, for the last couple of years I have gone to the EpicSki Academy (more info at www.epicski.com ) They are clinics run over four days where the ratio of instructors to students is around 1:5, and the instructors are top notch. I'd strongly recommend it, and I think Cedric would agree.

You know it makes sense.

Wear The Fox Hat, I am doing my bestest to make that trip next year. do you know of the proposed dates?

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

marc gledhill, I'm not sure, just waiting to get my access to Epic restored. I expect it will be late Jan/early Feb

A snowHead

Not all ski schools are the same, and not all have large classes. Some of us offer group lessons for very small groups (I am max. 4 in a group). Before booking you should check up on the max. number in a group. It can be a very effective way of learning, however no-one can effectively teach 12 people, no matter how hard they try.
If you have an instructor who is not teaching you, then you should say so. Many (especially French) instructors really believe that clients want to ski around the mountain. If you want intensive coaching say so, and if you don't get it complain to the ski school - not to your rep (who can't do anything about it anyway).
Good luck all of you. Laughing

A snowHead

I agree with Easiski. If you are going for a group lesson, check out the group sizes. I've just had some brilliant group lessons with Evolution 2 in a group of 6 people. Whatever you do, avoid the huge 'follow me' type lessons that you get from people like ESF. I had very enjoyable lessons with them last year, but didn't learn a thing. They were more like ski guiding than lessons!

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Not quite sure if I'm in the right place here, but I have an 8-year-old son, completely mad for it (skiing) - have just returned from a week in Courchevel where he had group lessons with Supreme (his 3rd lot this year) and because he has done comparatively quite a lot of skiing, he was in a group with a crowd of teenagers (mostly girls, to his disgust) - he got the speed, they covered a lot of ground (Les Menuires and back in 3 hours) but fun-wise a bit of a damp squib for him. No complaints about Supreme, as usual they were professional and really good with the children. So we're thinking of moving him next time to the ESF in 1650 on the basis that there will be lots of other 8-year-old speed freaks (albeit French) to keep him company. Despite having 2 native French speaking grandparents (one on each side), French speaking parents and countless French cousins, he resolutely refuses to learn the lingo although i suspect if push came to shove (wanting to communicate with likeminded spirits) he might find the impetus to do so - some work required on this. He's not terrifically confident generally, (academically or in team sports) but transforms into something different once he's got a pair of skis on his feet. Becase of this I am keen to support him, ahving foudn something he enjoys so thouroughly and abosorbedly. Standard wise, he's a 3-times-over International ski school (?) gold star and having looked at the ESF gradings and talked to the ESF, i reckon he'd be an etoile d'or/pre-competition. Any thoughts? Are the ESF groups likely to be huge/ would he get lost in a crowd of French speaking boys? Or would the 'follow me' approach be enough at his stage?
He's also talking about joining a dry ski slope club - again any thoughts/advice gratefully received (2 parents working full- time so not much capacity to chauffeur around).
Confused

You need to Login to know who's really who.

The étoile d'or group sounds about right - competition classes may not be far off, but standards and ages vary a lot - as an eight year old he would be one of the youngest and least physically strong, even with speed it can be hard to keep up. The ESI gold star is roughly equivalent to the 3* ESF, you need to be at ease on reds.... whereas competition level kids are pretty much at ease and can ski quickly on blacks in most conditions.

In the competition group there's not a huge amount of opportunity to chat! Etoile d'Or, there's still a fair amount of standing around in comparison. Most kids in these groups tend to be French, but the instructors should have a reasonable command of English and therefore be able to explain anything your son hasn't understood.

There's not that big a gap between étoile d'or and competition - it's just that if you're borderline you need to be physically strong to compensate. Plus if you're looking at Easter, conditions can be more tiring as well. The more advanced the groups the less crowded, I've seen competition groups with just 3 or 4 kids in them. Feb's always a bit different.

One suggestion - my daughter was with the ESF at Courchevel 1850 one Christmas ... the difference there is that because of demand 1850 have a transitional group for young children (7-12), between étoile d'or and competition, called "Cabri". Pretty much a competition group, but more geared to the younger child. Hannah was 7 at the time (but she speaks better French than English, so no problem there). She coped ok, enjoyed it a lot, but they don't hang about!

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

poma, could Junior stay with his French cousins for a time? And then make sure they come skiing as well. With this pre-season priming, ski school with lots of French kids might well be just the prod he needs to his French up to his skiing.

You'll need to Register first of course.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

Just in passing, but the perfect solution all round is the BSA (British Ski Academy) in Les Houches! British kids, ski all morning through the winter term, school in the afternoon ... parents have peace and quiet for a couple of months, child comes back an expert skier and fluent in French. What more could you want?!

One minor disadvantage though..... it doesn't come cheap! Malcolm Erskine runs the place, he did tell me that some grants were available, but I should think they're few and far between.

After all it is free

The BSA? As I recall, several thousand for one term! Had always imagined it was full of little Jeremys and Annabels as nobody else could afford the fees ...

Costs about £500-600 per week, + lift passes. Still if I didn't already live here there are times when I would consider taking out a second mortgage for a few weeks without the PGlets!

There's no shortage of Harrys and Harrietts.....

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

Alan, where is the slope at Avonmouth?

snow reports

john wells, it appears to be here, but I apologise 'cos that seems to be Avon rather than Avonmouth (dohh!!) (not many hills in Avonmouth?) rolling eyes

it's Avon ski centre in Churchill - my boy's been going there every week with school but just about skiied it out now! No sign of a club there. gloucester looks promising though.

You know it makes sense.

poma, They've got a website (Gloucester) if you haven't already seen it, at:

http://gloucesterskiclub.co.uk/mainmenumainset.htm

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Thanks, I contacted them and I'm taking him up there one sunday. Bit of a drive from here though - about an hour each way.

A snowHead

A snowHead

He's confined his aversion to the one ski school, fortunately; but I did hear him counselling his little sister (then about 3) as we passed one day: ' if they ever, ever try to send you to that ski school JUST SAY NO!'. 'They' haven't had the bottle to try!

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

poma, One thing about Courchevel 1850 ESF I do remember was that they were really snotty, thought they were the cat's whiskers. On the Friday morning (flèche tests) they managed to lose my daughter (only just 7) early on on the way to the stadium. I just happened upon her standing in the middle of the piste crying her eyes out (not because she was lost, because she thought she would miss the test!). When I found the instructor(ess) she barely apologised. She hadn't reported Hannah missing, had gone on to the stadium without her. I'm not sure she'd even noticed!

Still, I've heard good reports about them as well since, just bad luck probably.

You need to Login to know who's really who.

No PG, I would go along with your Snooty comment, and add uncaring, unsypathetic and a few more inkind comments. Rosie was just 4 and in ski school for the first time. Mum and Dad were having lesson with Ski Cocktail (I think - they still going?) and were late. All the other kids were eating in the "canteen": Rosie was left outside alone on a bench. She wasn't incuded because Rosie was only booked in for mornings and we hadn't paid for lunch. We didn't expect them to feed her, but to have let her stay with company would have made the wait less truamatic.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Don't want to get into an ESF witch hunt, but our 1850 expreiences were very similar - hence our loyalty to Supreme. We seem to be stuck in something of an age/skill/language mismatch, which I'm sure will, like all things to do with offspring, resolve itself with time. Still, I've heard really good things about the 1650 ESF which is partly why we thought it might be worth giving it a go - and PG, am I right in thinking that if he wants to get some credible skiing qualifications (which he seems to), then he's going to have to go ESF at some stage?

You'll need to Register first of course.

poma, Well you don't actually have to ski/learn with the ESF to take their (timed run) tests as a child. You can go along to the ESF office up to the day before the tests (often on a Friday), pay the small fee, and register. In themselves these tests are just an indication of level really - unless you live in France the other benefits (entry in certain races) are of little use to you. When you start taking the flèche (timed GS runs) tests you register a name and are given an ESF membership number. According to results you get so many 'points Open'. Then when you are in any French resort and enter for another flèche the computer should have your name on record (make sure they spell it correctly!) and so you start with a lower bib number (therefore in better snow conditions). The faster you are, the lower your points, the higher up the start list you are next time.

When you start racing in the UK as a ‘children I’ (in 2003/2004 this was children born in 1992) you begin to be awarded BASS points, equivalent to FFS points in France. Again in certain races, as a result of the points you have achieved that season, you might be seeded. You need to have points to your name (indicative of a minimum standard) to gain entry to the national races such as the British Children's Championships.

Note the difference between the ESF's 'points Open' and the French Association's FFS points. The ESF thing is strictly internal to the ESF itself, the FFS is the national clubs' association and their points system is what really counts in pre-FIS age French races.

Later on if you want to train to become an instructor you can do this under the auspices of the UK/French or any other member state of ISIA, the international organisation - now that equivalence has been recognised between the various countries who have signed up to the agreement.

When you register with the ESC (English Ski Council) for your first licence you have to name at least one club. Two memberships are possible – one dry slope, one snow club. For example you can belong to the Gloucester club for dry slope racing, but also to the likes of the Kandahar or the D.H.O. (DownHill Only Club) for snow skiing and racing. Children’s DHO membership isn’t expensive, but the regular trips abroad for training and race camps don’t come cheap. They are quite well run on the whole (I’ve been to a few, we’re members). If you want any more info on this side of things, let me know.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

poma, I don't know how much time you get to spend in your Courchevel apartment over the season, but the Courchevel ski racing club is quite flexible about membership from a residency point of view. The only requirement is usually having a holiday apartment somewhere in Courchevel or nearby (the likes of Méribel however insist that main residence is in the Méribel valley). Membership of the "pre-club' (minis age) is good value, with extremely cheap season passes, etc. This would mean your child would train with the club minis as a member of the club, take part in the occasional race.

Entrance to the club also requires taking part in a selection test. The Les Arcs club has just had their selection races - quite tough they are too.

I know a few parents of children in 3 Valleys clubs (same ski study secondary school as my own), so if you're interested in finding out the possibilities.......

After all it is free

As you say, that probably wouldn't be enough in attendance terms for a local club.... even at pre-club (minis) level.... I'll ask though.

The likes of the DHO might not be what you're looking for quite so soon, especially at minis level. I assume you won't yet want to send him off on his own. The DHO spends most of its time nowhere near the 3V, going to Wengen, Austria, all over the place. Plenty of parents send their children off on their own with the club when they reach Children 1 level however - they have training camps and race camps in the summer, winter, half-term and Easter hols.

If you want any info on the DHO ask Ingie (Christophersen) - her email address can be seen on her page at the DHO website. She's very helpful, will tell you anything you want to know, always responds very quickly. A lovely lady.

http://www.dhoskiracing.org/Ingrid%20Christophersen.htm

By far the quickest way to make very rapid progress is with a private instructor. One based in Meribel is Alain Falcoz, who looks after a young, rising British star called Jack Breton. Jack spends a lot of time with Alain - he is a superb teacher. Jack and my daughter Hannah have skied together a fair bit (same y.o.b.), and a few times with Alain. I've watched Alain work - it's no wonder Jack's the number 1 British 1992 boy by a mile in GB. Hannah's had pretty much the same treatment in her early skiing days - it really does make the difference.

Just a thought, but it might be worth getting your son to ski with Alain for a couple of hours to get an evaluation of his level and his advice on the best way forward. He knows the system inside out, as well as the 3V.

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

Wow! Information overload. All sounds like my boy's idea of heaven (when I reminded him this morning that it's cricket at school this term, he just muttered into his cornflakes 'I'd rather go skiing') and a fast track to outright bankruptcy for us. Thanks for all that - I will try and keep it all safe for when he's ready, looks like a summer on the dry stuff, then the etoile d'or at Christmas and see where we go from there.

Help!!

Ski school v private instruction (New Generation Courchevel)

snowHeads Forum Index >>> Bend ze Knees