 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@foxtrotzulu, you should be ashamed 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@foxtrotzulu, by the way, why don't you believe in tipping the self-employed? What's the difference?
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@miranda,
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@foxtrotzulu, by the way, why don't you believe in tipping the self-employed? What's the difference?
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I don't know whether it is a logical approach or not, but I feel there is a different business relationship in that situation. An employee gets his salary and a tip is a bonus for service above and beyond the call of duty. Someone who is self-employed is making a profit from the service they provide. The profit is the tip. If they do a good job they get hired again. If they don't, they don't get hired again. Makes sense to me anyway. As I say, that's my general approach. the devil is in the detail. If our (self-employed) boiler man comes out on on a Sunday to get the beastly thing working again, then he'll probably get a tip (usually liquid). He wouldn't get a tip for a usual service on a weekday.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I think you're probably overestimating the profitability of most small businesses/self employed people!
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Of course the Russian oligarchs got their money illegally. How else would they end up with some of the most valuable natural resources in tbe world barely a few years after private ownership of property was allowed? It's not like any of them became rich by inventing or developing technology like the heads of Microsoft, Facebook, Apple etc
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The fact that a bunch of them are ex KGB/GRU should tell you much of their morality/methodology in getting rich...
These folk aren't exactly Richard Branson or Mark Zuckerberg...
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Unless they blow up the World in the meantime the era of a relatively large amount of rich Russians will be a short lived one.
The Russian environment for business has gone from 'worth a punt' in the '90s to 'i'd rather be doing business in Zimbabwe' and the culture just doesn't support the creation and growth of business.
Their only wealth generation is Oil related and that is being concentrated in fewer and fewer hands and the World is very gradually starting to wean itself off oil dependency.
So like all booms, all the hotels that were built for the rich Russkies were built just too late and will have to find other customers. Maybe the Chinese will like skiing as they get richer?
But year on year, for many reasons, the numbers of Russian snow tourists and their charming companions will rapidly diminish.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| foxtrotzulu wrote: |
| An employee gets his salary and a tip is a bonus for service above and beyond the call of duty. |
A tip is expected for people ordinarily doing certain tasks. Generally to make up low wages.
Your distinction between employee and self-employed is increasingly irrelevant. I'm a contractor. Almost everyone I work with is a contractor. The managers I report into are contractors. There's no way for our clients to know who is staff and who is a contractor and the idea is that they neither know nor care.
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| emwmarine wrote: |
| the culture just doesn't support the creation and growth of business. |
I know someone who was attempting to set up a large IT project in Russia. After threats of violence he hired a bodyguard. In how many countries does someone in the IT business need a bodyguard?
I know someone who was having breakfast in a large Moscow hotel & found herself surrounded by 100s of ladies more normally of the night. There were some police present and she headed towards them to complain before realising the ladies were queueing to pay the police their weekly bribe.
Nobody who has got rich in Russia has clean hands. It can't be done.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| emwmarine wrote: |
But year on year, for many reasons, the numbers of Russian snow tourists and their charming companions will rapidly diminish. |
At the risk of sounding extremely politically incorrect, on the strength of what their presence "adds" to the in-resort experience nowadays, I won't bluddy miss them !! 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Have met quite a few Russkies this week in Austria - and they've been pretty pleasant. Not the super-rich types though; the ones here seem pretty middle class, with normal wives rather than young models, and skiing rather than getting expensively drunk in the best bars. They are just like other folk. I think the super-rich, whatever nationality, will have lives and values so far removed to most of our as to seem like aliens.
Have had more issues with a group of locals talking about and laughing at me on the gondola due to me being brown (south Asian origins), and not knowing that my German is good enough to understand that they are small-minded peasants. Once again, I do not believe that these cousin-marrying inbreds are representative of a whole nation.
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I do not believe that these cousin-marrying inbreds are representative of a whole nation
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let's hope not. 
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You know it makes sense.
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Glass houses and all that ... I live in a seaside town often refered to as Chelsea-on-Sea, I can assure you that the English can be pretty obnoxious, the common denominators are Black Range Rover with drug dealer windows, London and Tesco deliveries upon arrival. Also an inability to manage little Tarquin because the Nanny usually does this. At half term they go to the 3-Valleys, but hopefully do not stray out of Courchevel or Mirabel Valleys!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| madlondoner wrote: |
| Of course the Russian oligarchs got their money illegally. How else would they end up with some of the most valuable natural resources in tbe world barely a few years after private ownership of property was allowed? It's not like any of them became rich by inventing or developing technology like the heads of Microsoft, Facebook, Apple etc |
Of course, some of the early Russian mega-rich employed some dodgy business practices. But the days of the Russian Mafia are a long time ago. The vast majority of mega-rich Russians have made their money in a completely legal way. The worst that could be said of the majority is that too much depended upon knowing the right people. You are slightly missing the point about how these guys became rich. No, they didn't invent anything amazing. In the majority of cases they were simply there at the right time. The economic revolution Russian has been through in the last 20-30 years is incredible and the opportunities to amass vast wealth were multiple.
One of the most typical ways in which many of these guys made money was as follows:
Proto-oligarch works as a manager at a state owned factory.
Soviet Union collapses and ownership of factory is handed out to staff as shares
Workers see little benefit from owning shares in crap factory and need hard cash.
Manager stands at factory gate and buys up workers shares for small amount of cash. Lo and behold he now owns a sizeable chunk. Managers get together and realise they own a majority. Banks lend money for them to modernise, expand, buy up other factories and all of a sudden they're stinking rich.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| dogwatch wrote: |
| foxtrotzulu wrote: |
| An employee gets his salary and a tip is a bonus for service above and beyond the call of duty. |
A tip is expected for people ordinarily doing certain tasks. Generally to make up low wages.
Your distinction between employee and self-employed is increasingly irrelevant. I'm a contractor. Almost everyone I work with is a contractor. The managers I report into are contractors. There's no way for our clients to know who is staff and who is a contractor and the idea is that they neither know nor care. |
I'd suggest that there are very few jobs/services in the UK where a tip is the norm. Restaurants, taxi drivers, bell hops, ..... errrr. That's all I can think of. Even postmen and bin men nowadays seem a bit surprised when I hand them an envelope at Christmas.
You say that you are a contractor. Unless you are in IT, then I'm guessing it's the building trade. I've never heard of anyone tipping builders so the distinction between contractor or subcontractor is irrelevant.
If I call a local fencing contractor (one man no his dog, literally), because I want a few yards of paddock fencing put up then he will quote me a fee. It would seem a bit bizarre, to me, to tip on top of that.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| foxtrotzulu wrote: |
| Managers get together and realise they own a majority. Banks lend money for them to modernise, expand, buy up other factories... |
But then local criminal or KGB boss fancies their business, captures the factory and forces them to hand it over or see their family killed.
And I'm not joking.
To this day no one knows for sure how many businessmen have been killed and buried the vast russian forests.
And to be impartial, same stuff, probably on lower scale, happened in Ukraine.
Again, I'm not making sweeping generalisations here, but things like that were part of everyday life those days and large part of super-rich (and even no so super) russians/ukrainians have criminal links and/or background
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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There are nice rich people and thoroughly unpleasant rich people, I've never met any Billionaires but I've known a few Millionaires, some of them have been complete ....ers and others have been the nicest people you could hope to meet, my mother worked for a while as a personal chef to one such family and we lived on their estate, the father and children were lovely people always took an interest in their staff and the staffs children, the mother was the complete cow, thoroughly unpleasant person and a bully. In my experience having a lot of money makes very little difference to how people behave save that it makes the bad ones think they can do anything and get away with it
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| D G Orf wrote: |
| the bad ones think they can do anything and get away with it |
they mostly can 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I don't think, on average, rich people are any different to anyone else. Other people react differently to rich people, that's all. I know only one oligarch, but he does have a private plane. An Airbus a319. Certainly they have money, but behaving badly is still stupid: those of us who don't care about their cash will not help badly behaved people irrespective of the potential bribe.
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| philwig wrote: |
| behaving badly is still stupid: those of us who don't care about their cash will not help badly behaved people irrespective of the potential bribe. |
sure, but they will always find someone who will.
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The trouble is, bad behaviour is catching. I may have posted this before, but I used to manage a Russian violinist, who came from a famous and 'old school' family. I knew his parents from (my) childhood and their manners were impeccable. The son, when I was working for him, was unsmiling, didn't often say thank you and used to ask me ten times to do the same task, when he knew, at heart, that I would do what I could for him on the first time of asking. He was also fearful to a paranoid extent. All this because, in Soviet Russia, nobody much smiled, nobody much said thank you and nobody could get anything done without nagging people all the time, so he just became like everybody else and could no longer behave in what we would see as a normal way. It was very sad, actually, he was an unhappy person, despite his good career.
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I don't *think* I'm being a Pollyanna but I do think there is such a thing as too much money, and the most sane of the mega rich people I know are the ones who are piling a lot into their philanthropic foundations rather than their kids' trust funds.
The ability to do this is part of what makes them different from your 'average' person.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
Nobody who has got rich in Russia has clean hands. It can't be done.
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A bit like the City then?
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In true  tradition we need the Russian chap to post on here giving 'his version of the truth'
Perhaps the lad didn't get a tip because he was rude/crap/late/hungover/alloftheabove but Roman was too kind to say so directly
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@miranda, without exception, all the mega-rich Russians that I know are major philanthropists, as well as making sure their children will be well looked after. I only know three children of oligarchs (all in their late 20's now) and while I'm sure they are pretty rich all three are delightful and unspoilt people.
As you say, the ability to be philanthropic is different from 'ordinary' people, but that doesn't mean their personalities are actually very different.
I have noticed that other people treat the mega-rich differently, and I don't mean deferentially. You only have to read some of the comments on this thread to see that people are all to quick to make very negative judgements about people they haven't met, just because they are rich. At the risk of poking a hornets nest I think there is an element of "I'm a nice guy, but I'm not rich. Why is he rich when I'm not? If I decide that being rich automatically goes hand in hand with being dishonest and unpleasant then that helps me to accept the fact that I'm not as rich/successful."
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| DavidYacht wrote: |
| Glass houses and all that ... I live in a seaside town often refered to as Chelsea-on-Sea, I can assure you that the English can be pretty obnoxious, the common denominators are Black Range Rover with drug dealer windows, London and Tesco deliveries upon arrival. Also an inability to manage little Tarquin because the Nanny usually does this. At half term they go to the 3-Valleys, but hopefully do not stray out of Courchevel or Mirabel Valleys! |
I think you are letting your prejudices run away with you. Anyway, at least the obnoxious English to whom you refer have probably got the wit to know that Mirabel is in Canada and nowhere near Courchevel.
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@miranda, interesting point about 'too much money', although I can't easily think of any specific examples. Take a look at the very richest Brits or just richest people in the world and on the whole they seem OK. Buffett, Gates, Abramovich, Branson etc. They certainly have more than they 'need', but then so do most of us. Power can certainly corrupt, but money less so IMO.
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You know it makes sense.
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| foxtrotzulu wrote: |
| @miranda, interesting point about 'too much money', although I can't easily think of any specific examples. Take a look at the very richest Brits or just richest people in the world and on the whole they seem OK. Buffett, Gates, Abramovich, Branson etc. They certainly have more than they 'need', but then so do most of us. Power can certainly corrupt, but money less so IMO. |
Do you know any of those super rich people you've mentioned personally?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I'd be surprised if snowHeads collectively know enough people in that bracket to make meaningful generalisations.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Sorry, I should have said, the violinist isn't particularly rich, he's just Russian and rather impolite. 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Pedantica, yes, I didn't get the impression he was rich… did wonder whether he was just 'artistic' rather than 'Russian' though
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@miranda, no, not in his case, though you're right, that can be a problem too!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| musher wrote: |
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Nobody who has got rich in Russia has clean hands. It can't be done.
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A bit like the City then? |
Not really ... There is a big difference between greed and killing ....
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Foxtrotzulu, your business interests have distorted your thinking. Inequality in wealth and living standards are increasing and, exacerbated by marketing and media, deeply disturbing to many 'at the bottom of the ladder'. Donations from billionaires doesn't fix it. We need volunteer assistants on NHS wards if you are interested, it may open your horizons a little ( although sounds like you would prefer your pedestal).
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
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Nobody who has got rich in Russia has clean hands. It can't be done.
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A bit like the City then? |
Kleptocracy is rife everywhere, it's not limited to Russia and the UK. TTIP is a case in point.
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| Tinwhistle wrote: |
| Foxtrotzulu, your business interests have distorted your thinking. |
So did your obvious hate to everything what comes from Russia ;) It's pretty funny to read all this how bad and uneducated Russians are, while on other side you live with such stereotypes, that it's pretty impossible to get if you are at least half as educated as those "stupid Russians" are ;)
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I always had the impression Abromovich was just some thief who hit the big time.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I'd be surprised if snowHeads collectively know enough people in that bracket to make meaningful generalisations.
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I;m sure that absolutely correct, not just about the "mega rich" but a lot of other groups about whom generalisations are often made. "The French", "benefit scroungers" "snowbladers" and "Muslims", to name just a few.
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| miranda wrote: |
| foxtrotzulu wrote: |
| @miranda, interesting point about 'too much money', although I can't easily think of any specific examples. Take a look at the very richest Brits or just richest people in the world and on the whole they seem OK. Buffett, Gates, Abramovich, Branson etc. They certainly have more than they 'need', but then so do most of us. Power can certainly corrupt, but money less so IMO. |
Do you know any of those super rich people you've mentioned personally? |
Yes. Not Gates or Buffett, but I've met Branson a few times. I probably know 20+ Russians who are in the $50m plus league and about 6 of them are billionaires. None of them are close 'mates' but people I've worked with closely enough to be on first name terms with.
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