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Great skis for current icy conditions!

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
I know these weren't that well received by many on here as they are made by Atomic but I just came back from Tignes where the ice was awful and these skis performed amazingly.

Atomic Nomad Radon Ti's. As I've gotten older and less fit I struggle a bit with ice and bought these last year on the back of specific reviews for skis that would perform well on ice. Got them super cheap in the sales last March and tried them out for the first time this year.

Couldn't believe the control I had on all of the icy patches. From posts I've seen on here Atomics seem quite unfavoured and unfashionable but these really did perform brilliantly. No good for hors piste but I'm a piste lover nowadays. Grew up in Switzerland so spoilt for choice skiing pow as a kid but for some reason it doesn't hold that much appeal for me any more. I think it might be an age thing and getting less adventurous and more risk adverse!
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
it is probably as Atomics come out with an side edge angle of 3 degrees, wheras most other skis are done at 2 degrees... I have now changed my old Head skis to be 3 degrees (from the standard 2), and the difference was immediate Happy. It gave them a new lease of life - together with regular waxing.

3 degrees side angle on all of my skis now - even powder skis (when getting back to the lift).
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Talking of edge angles - this is a really useful link showing the factory shipped angles for all of the major brands (courtesy of Jon's ski tuning):

http://www.jonsskituning.co.uk/content/view/31/41/

I have Head iTitan's (1, 1) and they have always performed brilliantly on ice -- so I don't think it is only the edge angle that matters.
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Current icy conditions??

Really? Unusually icy?
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@under a new name, I though so, for this time of year anyway. Was more like spring skiing with daytime melting and overnight freezing. Then when the fresh snow fell it was so windy that the ice never really got a decent covering. I've never skied in such icy conditions in a January, maybe I've just been lucky. Usually high up it stays cold enough to not thaw and re-freeze. Tignes Les Brev was, on most days, up around +4/+5 during the day.
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It's been changeable but it's pretty good this week. I skied down to Hauteluce at about 1150m this morning and wasn't a bit of ice to be seen. On some runs there are small icy bits but they are easily avoided and overall the snow is great (if thin - my son was bouncing around rather cautiously off piste on his brother in law's skis).
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
 @swishtony, Thanks for your suggestion! It's always good to hear a first - hand account. I will definitely be considering those.

I've also just returned from Tignes, where I've suffer the whole week due to the ice. The edges on my rental ski's were extremely blunt but, when I asked for them to be sharpened, I got the answer, "well we have 300 pairs of ski's here so, if we were to sharpen yours, we would then have to sharpen everyone else's" (it was the UCPA). They did swap them for another pair, which was just the same. 

I am now looking to buy a ski ( a GS "cheater", with a radius 16-18m). After my icy ordeal, the top priority for me is that any prospective ski would have to perform extremely well on ice. 

I have short - listed the following models (in no particular order): 

1. Head world cup rebels i.speed 180cm (18m) 
2. Fischer RC4 WORLDCUP RC Pro 180cm (18m) 
3. Salomon X-Race 175cm (17m) 
4. Dynastar Speed Course Pro 184cm (17m) or maybe 178cm (16m)? 
5. Dynastar Course WC Premium R20 175cm (18m) 

Has anyone got any first - hand knowledge/experience with any of these? Any comments would be greately appreciated. Please feel free to suggest any ski that you know performs well on ice.

@under a new name, swishtony told no lie, it was really icy, even the locals were commenting that they have rarely seen it like that. Some pistes resembled more ice rinks than the slopes
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
@swishtony, fair enough. I did suspect that the fresh that fell would swiftly be swept away again...
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@snowglider, I used the Nordica Dobermann Spitfire Pro (176) in Whistler for three days in the 1st week of January - lots of ice, especially in the alpine early in the day.

I found them to be an excellent ski on piste. No trouble with ice, though most happy on the edges regardless of the conditions so you have to want to go fast!

Also of possible interest: Two years ago in Val D'Isere my girlfriend started on some 'premium' rental skis (some elans I think?), but end of the day ice on La Face did for those. In fairness to the skis, it was so slippy that an instructor (not our teacher) fell over behind her - but the fact that he ended up crashing into her too completely shook her confidence.

After our first private lesson the next morning, her one piece of homework for later in the week was to shout at the rental shop to get better skis to practice on. The result was some Fischer RC4s. They came with many warnings from the rental guy about how they were mens racing skis only, but she loved them for the rest of the week and didn't fall over (due to ice) at all.
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@Pynch, thanks for your reply. Bizarrely, it echoes my own experience somewhat Smile
Last year I hired a pair of Elan SLX WC SL Race. A very nimble ski, but when it became icy, I took quite a few tumbles on the icy sections. The edge hold was non - existent. Similarly to your girlfriend, my confidence got dented to the point that I now almost dread skiing on ice.

In fairness to Elan, it seems that all their skis come with the factory tune 1,1. So that could well have been the reason for their poor performance on ice.

The Fischer RC4 WC RC Pro is the ski I am drawn to the most, due to glowing reports.

Anyone else has any personal (or indirect) experience with any of the above skis? Or can recommend one ski over another? Or has any other suggestions?
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 snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@snowglider, my experience on all WC-style (as they were certainly not a real WC ski - by definition) is that their hold is exceptional. I and my OH who (informally trained with the Spanish WC squad in years gone by) rather liked the Elan race skis.

Unless poorly maintained.

And for an SL you definitely want a square base edge and possibly square side edge.
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@snowglider, I hired some Atomic Redster GS style (cheat not FIS, can't remember the exact model but it was one of the lower, general punter versions) on an icy day in Whistler, cue a big fun day while the locals on 100mm plus powder boards slid around sideways. I reckon any race style ski would be good if properly tuned and sharp. I have heard the Fischer's keep their edges sharp longer, harder metal possibly? Not sure, but an old pair I had certainly held a good edge.
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So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
You won't go far wrong with all of the skis you mention. The Dynastars will be heavier and damper. A rock solid ride but less playful. The Fishers "poppier". Head and Salomon somewhere between. Another option is the Rossignol Hero Long Turn. I've seen those a a great price in more than one shop and lots of them out on the slopes. Seems like Rossi have set the price low to try to sell volume.

175 might be a bit short, depending on your weight and skill level.

M
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@snowglider, GS cheater skis are going to be stiff and not very forgiving!! Just been out on mine for a few days and you have to be on your game IMHO. No idea how you ski so if your a ski god, please forgive me teaching you to suck eggs Smile
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Had the predecessor of those Redster GS as rental skis one year. First ski I put on and had that "oh yes!" moment on groomers. Bought the Redster ST, but even the longest look like snowblades! They are very very turny. Definitely piste skis for on piste, especially when icy. Might get the Redster GS to match, if they have a good price at the end of the season.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Quote:

GS cheater skis are going to be stiff and not very forgiving!!


I'm no ski god, but I completely agree with that. Great fun, but I found it like having a strict teacher; you can just feel that being lazy wouldn't be a good idea...
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
I love my 175cm Fischer RC4 Race RC skis- not sure whether as stiff as WordCup variety but inexpensive yet great for my needs (I think radius is approx 17m). Interesting reading about the edge angle which tallies as to how they compare with my Salomon Crossmax V12s.
I bought them specifically to ski in the Pyrenees, for use on relatively hard snow, knowing that lots of huge snow depths/off piste is unlikely. They are slightly less forgiving in deep snow/moguls than the Crossmax, but in icy/hard pack they really come into their own. The great thing is that they are very stable even off edge in a straight line (unusual for modern skis), which is great for ice if you want to avoid edging completely on an icy patch and really 'lock and load' when on edge, very little wobble or speed limit!
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Thanks to everyone who has replied with comments/suggestions! I'm finding it all very helpful.

@under a new name, that was exactly my thinking when I was compiling the list.
Since WC construction skis handle ice as a matter - of - course, it stands to reason that their various derivatives would be just as good, or nearly as good at it, as the real deal.

Btw maybe I came across all wrong; I have a soft spot too for Elan race skis! Hence they were my choice when I was renting. I had some Elan RC 05 back in the day when Ingemar Stenmark was unbeatable on them... They were 198cm slalom skis! Very Happy

@Col the Yeti & @andy, now you've thrown a spanner into the works! snowHead It's great though, that's exactly what I was hoping for when I invited comments. A quick search confirmed that the D2 3.0 GS is held in high esteem. To further muddy the issue, there's also the D2 3.0 XT, a 175cm with a 15,5m turning radius.
So a "cheater" amongst "cheaters"?! Surely, that's not a "Redster, but a "Fraudster" GS! Very Happy

Since my priority is good handling on ice and not a particular turning radius, could this be the ideal one for me (between a SL and a GS ski)? Or is it the case of "jack of all trades, master of none" Puzzled Hmmm...


@hyperkub, thanks for throwing some light on my shortlist and for yet another great suggestion. Just looked around quickly and Rossi's Hero LT's also seem to get reviewed favourably. During the search I also stumbled upon the Rossi Hero Master, but couldn't find much about them. How would they stack up against the Hero LT's?
Although my "shortlist" is growing, the good thing is that, like you said, they're all decent skis and I pretty much won't be able to go much wrong whichever one I eventually decide to go with.

In answer to your question: my weight is great (unlike my skill level) snowHead I was just skiing in a "maîtrise" group. However, I am not a novice; I have skied a long, long time ago but had to stop due to injuries, from which I have now reconvalesced. One more plate and 7 pins to be removed from my left ankle and that'll be it Very Happy.
The instructor said that my skill level is good for "confirme" level, IF i can get fit enough. I weigh 130kg, so I'll be bringing that down to 110kg (my weight when fit) over the next 3-6 months.

@kitenski, as per my answer to hyperkub, I don't believe that stiffness of the GS "cheater" skis will be my enemy. While I may lack the sheer skill to bend them into submission, I certainly have the frame to do it Laughing
I am actually also looking to get skis slightly above my level, as I intend to improve and would be loath to change my skis every year.

So by no account am I a ski god; please feel free to teach me how to suck eggs Smile No offence will be taken at any well - intentioned, non - condescending advice. Au contraire! snowHead

Btw which GS skis do you have and would you recommend them?

@Dr. Will, while I may need a stiffer, WC construction - based ski (due to my weight, if not skill level), it's really reassuring to see the actual owners recommend Fischer skis of this type without hesitation.
The best possible advert is when people vote with their wallets!
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@snowglider, I haven't had "cheaters" for a few years having moved onto more "proper" FIS models.

For outright fun, you can't beat SLs*. Nor for performance on hardpack. GS* nearly as fun and a little less uncompromising with a hangover. SGs* require too few people to really let them run but my Volkl 2009 Racetigers (203) are remarkably skiable.

If you're looking at full on FIS compliant models I doubt you'll notice an awful lot of difference between them. Cheaters rather more so. If you're looking at a cheater race ski (why would you?) I'd be heading in the direction of something like a pre-this year Volkl Mantra which skis just like a fat GS race and provided in tune, grips at least as well.

I spend most of my time on the Mantras, as they just do everything so well. We ski hardpack quite a lot. I think they're on their last season though Sad

* I own all these. The Sls won't take another repair though so I need to earn a little more money to replace them. They're currently Nordicas which were epic. I'd like a shot on some Heads though.


Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Thu 22-01-15 17:17; edited 1 time in total
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@snowglider, I got some 2013 Völkl Code Speedwall 178 cm from ebay for 330 euros...

They seemed good in the two days I've used them so far, heavy and stiff but boy do they grip and go!!
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@under a new name, well, you might just save me €500-ish! Laughing If that happens, I'll owe you a drink Smile
I have a pair of Dynastar Omeglass WC SL R18 (FIS, 2013, brand new, still in a wrapper) sitting at home.

The only reason I didn't take them with me to Tignes was a rather complicated transfer from VT (where I'd stayed the week before) to Tignes (2 buses and a train, on a very tight deadline, 25 min in between).
That, and the fact that it was my first time with the UCPA, so I didn't know how safe the ski storage was.

As I was sliding all over the icy slopes of Tignes, I remember thinking that it was a good job I wasn't on my SL's, as I believed the rather short edges (165cm) simply couldn't provide enough real estate to support my (significant) weight on ice.
Am I wrong in thinking that I'm just too big a guy for a 165cm ski?

So I hatched a plan to get a new pair of GS's and get rid of my unused SL's. Especially since the rental skis I used were some ancient Rossi pursuits (177cm, 17m), and I never wished they were more nimble.
Yesterday's discovery of Atomic's D2 3.0 XT's (175cm, 15,5m) made me think that it's possible to get a ski that would be a happy marriage between the two?
Or am I completely wrong to think this way?

It's just that I think that my large, heavy frame lends itself much better to long, fluid GS turns, as opposed to tight SL turns?

I wish I could try a few pairs and decide for myself, but that's just not possible. Sad So I'm just going to have to "guestimate", with a bit of help and guidance from my fellow
snowHead s Laughing
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Quote:

I believed the rather short edges (165cm) simply couldn't provide enough real estate to support my (significant) weight on ice


Wrong! They're good enough for Felix Neureuther, currently #2 in WC SL at 87kgs.

Quote:

large, heavy frame lends itself much better to long, fluid GS turns


Why?

Up to you really, I'd give the Dynastars a go. I think they'll be quite fun.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
@snowglider, I see where you are going with the Atomic XT. If you want one pair then something between SL and GS in radius could be a good idea. I find full GS radius a bit of a handful if it is crowded, you are always trying to go slower than the rhythm of the skis would like and moguls!!!
I have old Atomic SX10s which were a (now obsolete) ski based, very loosely, on skicross. They are stiff heavy and narrow, ski rather like GS skis but have an intermediate radius so it is easier to slow down and tighten turns if you want to. I love them and they do anything on piste well enough. I think the XTs might be a modern equivalent.
That said try the SLs since you have them, you might like the feel and they should grip well. I just like skiing big turns most of the time with the ability to tighten up if needed so SL types aren't my first choice.

Alternatively get all of them like @under a new name, You can never have too many skis Toofy Grin
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Quote:

You can never have too many skis


True.

I would fess up that for about 8 years I skied on the Rossi cheater GS ski in a 160cm (silver and yellow until they broke, then black and gold). One of my favourite ever skis, and really rather good in most conditions, even one day of bottomless Canadian heli powder. Although the guides did look at me rather oddly and I was significantly more knackered than anyone else at day's end.
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My Volkl Code Speedwall S UVO's are fantastic on ice (5'10"/80kg/166cm) but then everyone recommends their own skis ... rolling eyes
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@under a new name, thanks a lot (and everyone else who provided an insight) for your help. All the info was very useful.
After an awful lot of thinking, the Dynastars are staying. I ought to give them a fair chance.

My scepticism stemmed from the fact that (as big a lump as Felix is), I still weigh exactly 50% more (!) than him.

But... Now I will get a second ski (have you seen the exchange rates today)?! Smile
Thus I'm "justifying" to myself another purchase, by lying to myself that I'm actually making a saving... rolling eyes

So I've whittled down my original list to:

1. Head WC Rebels i.speeds (in either a 175cm @ 17m or 180cm @18m) and the
2. Dynastar Speed Course Pros (either a 178cm @ 16m or 184cm @ 17m).
3. Volkl Mantra 2013-14 (either a 177cm or 184cm)

@under a new name, thanks for suggesting the Mantras, it seems to be an awesome ski and represnts a good value.

I assumed (almost certainly wrongly) Smile that all the skis on my shortlist will have a similar performance level, so I chose the Heads and the Dynastars purely on their value for money basis. They come with a DIN14 bindings (makes a difference to me), whereas all the other ones come with a DIN12. The Heads are €28 more expensive than the Dynastars, so practically there's nothing in it.

The Mantras would ultimately cost 25% to 50% more than the other two (depending on the choice of binding), but are so much more versatile than either.

My only concern regarding the Mantras is, would they be too much of a ski for me at this stage?
I tried some Rossignol Experiences (an older model, very heavy, they felt as if they were made of lead) and found them really difficult to turn, despite their claimed 16m turning radius. All the reviews I found so far about the Mantras refer to them as "heavy"... I know I shouldn't read too much into it, but after my awful experience with the, errrm... Experiences, I am a bit weary.

Any suggestions about the suitable length for me (either of the 3 models)? I'm 6" (183cm).
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@Col the Yeti, I've had to dismiss the Atomics XTs on the basis that the cheapest I found were €200 more expensive than the Dynastars and €170 than the Heads?! Puzzled rolling eyes

If I were to flog my SLs, I would almost certainly go with the Dynastars in a 178 @16, as they would have practically provided the same turning radius as the Atomics.
Seeing as I'm now keeping them, I am well tempted to go for the longer version & wider radius of either ski, but have slight reservations if I am trying to bite off more than I can chew at this stage? Puzzled
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So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@irie, thanks for that. kitenski also recommended them (the L version).
I had a good look and it's yet another ski that's held in high regard, albeit more expensive than the Head and Dynastar.

I so wish I could demo them all but, especially since I'm now keeping my Dynastar SLs, budget is playing a very important role in the decision - making process. Sad
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
I have the Mantras - although the 2011 model. I am 6'3''and have the 191 version.

The thing with the mantra's is that you have be perfectly positioned and have a fair amount of speed to get the most out of them. Due to the stiff tails, even if you are slightly out of position (read: backseat), they will make you pay Happy

Once you have worked them out, they are great.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@under a new name, hahaha, I can just imagine the flabbergasted faces of the guides! Laughing
I wish I were there to see them - must have been priceless! Laughing
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 Poster: A snowHead
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@Lilledonmarco, luckily, I don't ski in the backseat (at least according to my very polite instructor) Smile who reckons I ski "in ze middle".

Hopefully, in time, I'll be able to get in the front seat (at least some of the time) Laughing
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@snowglider, The S is the slalom version of the Speedwall, the L is the GS type...compare the turn radius

Looks like lots of options under £300 for a previous year model on ebay
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
If you ski "in the backseat" on the Code Speedwall UVO's they'll mug you pretty quick! Shocked
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swishtony wrote:
I know these weren't that well received by many on here as they are made by Atomic


hang on, hang on.... made by Atomic - mad raceing baticjhes.... why is that a bad thing re mad ice hugging skis?

First skis I bought were some Atomic Metron XI's in a sub 170 mad short turn radius length... I mean I learnt on plastic on rear entry boots and above head height skis... so when i restarted skiing i over compensated somewhat Shocked

Leant back out of a turn at Whistler and they nearly threw me on my back - alarming but rather impressive. Better than the Metron 9's the preposterously heavy B5's (and these Xi's were 16someting or others and d@mn heavy even so), some Salomon fancy top cap hobbies or Volk shark things... as long as you wanted maximum liveliness and to turn 90 degrees in very short notice...

And Metron's aren't / weren't even their true race/SL skis...

Anyway... I have got some slightly less mad skis now, but just couldn't go to the big a@se fat skis yet... still 70mm underfoot but a lot more controllable.
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@coops1967, I thought the same, I'm staying this winter just down the road from the Atomic factory and most of the Austrian racers seem to use their skis. I demo'd the double decker SL ski, awesome bite on icy pistes, but could only afford a second hand pair of the old race 12s, still love them when the pistes get hard and there is no decent off piste to be had.
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I'm not sure why the Mantras have such a reputation, we've always found them very easy to ski.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
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@kitenski, I looked but all I could find was a single pair under €300 - and they were 185cm. All the other ones in the length that I want are €400+. Also, they all seem to come with a DIN12 binding - too weak for me, or borderline at best.

Am I wrong to think that either the Dynastars or the Heads (at €449 and €478 respectively) represent better value than the Volkls? (Considering they're both this year's models and both come with DIN14 bindings).

This is all assuming that, performance wise, all things are equal between these skis... but are they?

So far, I've managed to find a single owner's review who claimed to have skied at night on the Dynastars and that they were awesome on ice. One would expect the Heads to perform the same.

Any opinions on the similarities/differences between the 2? (The 3, if we include the Volkl Codes). The Mantras would seem to be an altogether different animal .
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
@snowglider, edges, edges, EDGES!

You struggled with Elan SLX Race?

The BEST "ice" ski I have ever been on. I love them....But 2 things:

They have 2 layers of titanium, they are stiff, very stiff. You really need to drive them, you cannot poodle around and expect them to perform.
Did I mention the edges? Smile Mine get a tune up (by me) every single day if it is icy.

The best skis will be rubbish if the edges are not sharp, and the most floppy, beginner skis or the fattest off piste specials will be OK if they are razor sharp.

Concentrate on what you want from the ski, the type of skier you are (weight included Smile ) and go from there.
Don't listen to anyone who says these are better/worse for ice because they will never really be comparing apples/apples as the width, radius, stiffness etc will almost certainly be different....did I mention the edges? (Pack a file kit!)
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@snowglider, does this work??

http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_odkw=volk+speedwall&LH_PrefLoc=3&_from=R40%7CR40&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xvolk+code+speedwall&_nkw=volk+code+speedwall&_sacat=0
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@swishtony, you need better legs not different skis wink
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