Mid layer for new shell jacket

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Makes sense.

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If your shell already has a hood, you don't need a hood on your mid-layer, it will only create bulk. I normally use a merino base layer, a fleece-type mid layer and a down vest, which I can easily stick into backpack if I decide I am warm enough without it. When it's really cold instead of down vest I use a down sweater. Just one layer under pants should also be enough. I have fleece pants but never used them yet even when we had this very cold spell few seasons ago. Good idea to try everything together before buying and work out which size you need. I found that Arcteryx clothes (at least shells and pants) don't work for me. I am a girl and need an XS pants but they are at least 4 inches too short than I need, S is noticeably too big, and S shell is too narrow around shoulders despite the claim of a very "generous fit" (I think it was Expedition) and on their charts I measured closer to XS, but M is on a big side and huge around waist. Had to send everything back - they have a good return policy. I stick with Scandinavian brands as their sizing work way better for me.

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Just a heads up on Mountain Equipment; I`ve got a Vega jacket, and the pocket split in the first week of use; it was a gift, and they would not warranty it without a receipt. Arcteryx on the other hand have just repaired a Sabre jacket for me after 3 years, no questions asked, goodwill repair. My atom fits easily under a Sabre or a Stingray, despite being lofty; I have a hood on the midlayer, but only because I have Surfer`s Ear, where the bone grows over the hole... gotta keep it warm !

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The number of down jackets available is quite overwhelming...I honestly cannot find a way of "comparing like-for-like".

Quite like the Arc'tery Atom AR jacket; so another one for me to look into. Also saw (on the net) Montane Anti-freeze which looks quite nice a a good spec. Again I am quite overwhelmed by the number of downs available....

Please keep sharing your thoughts are they are quite helpful.

thanks again

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Down is very appealing, but not that practical, as you need to keep it dry. Personally, I have found that I have used man made fill insulation far more often than down. I did buy a Montane down featherlite, as my wife has one, and it is well designed, but it was badly finished, so look inside and check the stitching of anything that you buy. This is what it looked like;

The Arcteryx Cerium was a perfect slim fit, but too expensive for me, so I will be looking for one in the summer!

After all it is free

Marmot Isotherm jacket, a lot thinner than down lightweights and is synthetic filling, really light though and sports pursuit were doing them on discount.

I've got a Berghaus asgard hybrid jacket which I use on very cold days, it's a combination of both down and synthetic fill insulation, with the down pannels being placed around the core where they're less likely to get wet. It's also hydrophobic down.... Worth a look maybe?

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@cstreat, thanks for pointing out the stitching issue.....How would an Arcteryx Cerium compare to an Atom AR/LT? Is it just a case of thinking that a down will be warmer than a synthetic model?

@2planks I will check the Marmot Isotherm, thanks for the tip

@tomb I will check the Berghaus Asgard jacket, thanks for the tip

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redbaron51, weight for weight, down is warmer than current synthetics but has its cons as do synthetics (just google "down vs synthetic" for full details).

If you're mountaineering or touring, you may choose down because of the weight factor but then have to deal with it getting wet and losing its insulating properties. If you're mainly skiing in resort or lift-served off piste and weight is not a factor, you may choose synthetic.

My personal experience with down is that it is better as an outer jacket, i.e. on its own or over a shell when you're doing something less active like belaying or sitting (or walking around the resort) because I don't think it regulates temperature as well as synthetics, silk or wool. I find I end up overheating and feeling clammy with a down mid layer if I'm doing something active like skiing or climbing. I far prefer synthetic insulation for active times and appreciate the easy care of synthetics. Primaloft and Arc'teryx's own Coreloft are very good but there are quite a few more available these days.

Conversely, a guy I ski with swears by down and won't even consider synthetics. When it comes to synthetics, I never use fleece because, like down, it leaves me feeling clammy.

It depends on how your own body regulates temps, your budget, the intended activities, etc.

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@redbaron51,

ME lightline is an excellent piece of kit as is your Arc'teryx shell. Where do you ski and do you run cold? The reason I ask is that speaking personally, I have almost never (perhaps a handful of days in hundreds) found conditions in Europe cold enough to make that combination not too warm for skiing. That is not to say that there have not been more chairlift rides when it would have been nice but I would have been overheated and steamy by the bottom of the next run. Steamy isn't good because you'll struggle to get the moisture out through the down jacket and the shell. The lightline is really a classic alpine "belay jacket" - something you put on when you are stationary in very cold conditions watching your partner run out the rope on a hard pitch but take off again before you do anything energetic. Unless the weather is truly ferocious.

People do vary so if you tend to be cold when your mates are still toasty, this might be right for you. However if you want to go down the down route, I'd think about something a bit lighter/thinner like RAB microlight (comes in a non hoody version I think) or ME arête. For me, even that would likely be too warm 90% of the time.
I tend to wear merino base, merino mid layer and shell. If it is cold (-5 to -10), I'll add a powerstretch vest. If it's really cold (<-10) I might add a thin fleece.
When I use a down jacket it is when I am standing around outside in very cold conditions (e.g., lunch stop when early season touring). And then I would put it on over the top of the shell, put it back in the rucsac when I start being active again. It seems odd wearing something over a shell but think about it - if it is cold enough to justify down, it's almost never wet.

Yeah the Lighline's been around for about 25 years, back when a "duvet" was a jacket. They should be solid. I use PHD and RAB quite a bit.

I don't ride much in the rain, but if I did it'd be warm, so I would not likely be using down. If conditions changed I'd put the down under the shell, not over it.

Thinking about it, using lighter weight down jackets, and using them over the shell, seems to have become more popular recently. Back in the day down jackets ("duvets") were for rescues and the pub only. The more modern thin stuff (thinner than the Lighline although it's the same concept) are more like fleeces anyway.

You know it makes sense.

I don't think down breathes as well as fleece. i generally carry a packable down jacket or gilet but it usually only goes on if I am expecting a chilly lift ride or am stopping outside for a bit. Only if I have got really cold do I wear it for actually skiing

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A snowHead

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@jedster, if I am touring, I go for a different approach (I am also a sweaty beast). I tend to wear a mesh baselayer with a very light windcheater (Patagonia Houdini) over the top on the way up, then put my midlayer (usually a light fleece) and shell on straight over the top. Using the vapour barrier theory. Works quite well, particularly on yo-yo days, because it stops the insulating layer from getting sweaty

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@Arno, where in your described layering set up do you wear the vapour barrier? Under the mesh base layer? How well does such a layering system work whilst touring? Keen to know having never tried it myself?

Edit : my bad, I can see you use the houdini after a second read :/

After all it is free

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@musher, my mesh baselayers are like long sleeve string vests. my wife can barely control herself* when i wear them Laughing

* the gag reflex obviously

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Found a good light weight fleece which I wear as layer 3 over 2 thin layers when v cold, though not yet needed this season. Seems be be really good wicking away moisture. It is the free fleece with a National Geographic £15 subscription!

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Brnyje mesh base layers FTW! Cannot be beaten for warmth retention and wicking IMO. Might not be high up on fashion but functionally they are amazing. All the Scandinavian armies use them. One of those plus one mid layer fleece plus my Dawn Patrol Hybrid shell was all I needed this year.

I think I am going to get an Icebreaker LS Merino BaseLayer (200 or 260), fleece as 2nd layer and shell. I will probably spend more time researching which down to buy (ME Lightline is nice, Montane Featherlight looks good but bit inferior then ME Lightline. Also want to try Arctery Atom AR Hoody).

Anyway I hope I can go skiing this season.....I normally go to Italy...

Help!!

Mid layer for new shell jacket

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