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Mid layer for new shell jacket

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
hi all,

Made up my mind and invested in a new jacket and ski pants (lost bit of wait and my tired jacket is too big so is my Trespass pants).

Basically I bought the following:

Jacket:

Arc'teryx Beta LT - http://arcteryx.com/product.aspx?language=EN&gender=Mens&category=Shell_Jackets&model=Beta-LT-Jacket

Pants:

Volcom L Goretex - http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00HW06IYI/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pd_S_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=1PB5YO215IV2&coliid=IL33436KL1B7D&psc=1&tag=amz07b-21

I was wondering now what to get to provide insulation when the slopes are cold.

Under the pants: Wear Merino trousers and fleece (if needed) Or wear a warm running pants and fleece (if needed).

Under the jacket: Wear Merino top, Mid layer and fleece....But unsure whether this would be enough to very cold/windy lifts....Been looking at (either with or without hoody):
Arc'teryx Atom AR: http://arcteryx.com/product.aspx?language=EN&gender=Mens&category=Mid_Layer_and_Fleece&model=Atom-AR-Hoody
Arc'teryx Atom LT : http://arcteryx.com/product.aspx?language=EN&gender=Mens&category=Mid_Layer_and_Fleece&model=Atom-LT-Jacket

Would the hoody version be okay to wear under the Jacket? What other mid layers would you guys recommend?
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
When I bought a shell jacket (a Haglofs, and I loved it) I ran into a huge problem finding a warm mid layer. I definitely didn't want a hood, which restricted things a bit, but I found that of a very large number of garments tried on - basically everything in Cotswold Outdoor in Chichester - none of them was comfortable under the jacket because the arm holes/sleeves were too restricting.

In the end I reluctantly got a refund on the jacket (which I'd bought online from Cotswold) and started all over again.

So my message would be to make sure you try the mid layer and the jacket together.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
I got one of these which is perfect for me http://www.e-outdoor.co.uk/440982/products/mountain_equipment_mens_arete_down_jacket.aspx?origin=pla&kwd=&currency=GBP&gclid=Cj0KEQiAreilBRDzrNfb6uqX4fwBEiQAk-MRY2n4aqa_lIuyJdXNj-JgPUhFb-JdryIyXpXZ3lM2k54aAghw8P8HAQ
Personally wouldn't bother with a hood as the shell has one and it will just get in the way.
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redbaron51, I have both the Atom AR (for cold days) and the Atom LT (for warmer days). Rate them highly and they fit perfectly under Arc'teryx shells of course.

I find my legs don't get cold, so only wear Skins under my shell pants. You may find that wearing both fleece and merino under your shell pants will be too warm.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
pam w wrote:
When I bought a shell jacket (a Haglofs, and I loved it) I ran into a huge problem finding a warm mid layer ... none of them was comfortable under the jacket because the arm holes/sleeves were too restricting.


In the 90's shell jackets were cut to comfortably wear multiple warm layers underneath them.

Now a slimmer silhouette is more fashionable, this is great if you are climbing or ski touring and need to wear just a thin fleece under your shell because you are working hard. The idea is that when you stop moving you put on a thick synthetic jacket over the top of your shell.

This approach works less well for lift served skiing as most skiers don't want the hassle of carrying around a thick 'over layering' jacket with them in their rucksack.

The best solution I've found for lift served skiing is to leave your shell jacket behind on the few really cold days, and to ski in an insulated jacket instead.

To the OP - An alternative to spending £200 on a midlayer would be to continue using your fleece as a mid layer, and to spend the money on an insulated jacket to wear in place of your Arcteryx shell on the really cold days.
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I`ve got an Atom Sv, which I think has been replaced by the AR ? It is 3 years old, worn through out the year, and by far the most versatile jacket that I have owned; great under a shell, and still like new.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Oceanic wrote:
pam w wrote:
When I bought a shell jacket (a Haglofs, and I loved it) I ran into a huge problem finding a warm mid layer ... none of them was comfortable under the jacket because the arm holes/sleeves were too restricting.


In the 90's shell jackets were cut to comfortably wear multiple warm layers underneath them.

Now a slimmer silhouette is more fashionable, this is great if you are climbing or ski touring and need to wear just a thin fleece under your shell because you are working hard. The idea is that when you stop moving you put on a thick synthetic jacket over the top of your shell.

This approach works less well for lift served skiing as most skiers don't want the hassle of carrying around a thick 'over layering' jacket with them in their rucksack.

The best solution I've found for lift served skiing is to leave your shell jacket behind on the few really cold days, and to ski in an insulated jacket instead.

To the OP - An alternative to spending £200 on a midlayer would be to continue using your fleece as a mid layer, and to spend the money on an insulated jacket to wear in place of your Arcteryx shell on the really cold days.


Not sure where you got this idea. Arc'teryx, in particular, offers shell jackets in multiple fits. Trim, for climbing, ie minimal space for layering. Expedition, I think, is the name of the line designed for layering. For most skiers, the latter would be best.

Never heard of anyone put a layer on TOP of a shell. Something new for me. Perhaps it is done in climbing circles, but I have not seen it on the snow.

I wear a shell and layer according to the weather. Never been an issue from <20C, with wind chill, to low positive temps.


Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Sun 18-01-15 10:20; edited 1 time in total
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
BTW, what is an insulated jacket? Is it not just a shell, with a mid-layer bonded to it?
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@redbaron51 (and @ulmerhutte), you need to take age into account.
In my yonger days i managed with a lot less clothing, but as we get older we seem to deal less well with the cold.
I now need a lot more when in gets cold, especially with a wind blowing.
Some young nippers seem to manage with just a jacket and t-shirt.
With my Arc'teryx shell i usually have 3 layers underneath, and sometimes (like it might be later this week) 4.
Never thought of (or seen) anyone putting an outer layer over the jacket - maybe a trick for skinning the back country . . . Puzzled
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ulmerhutte wrote:
Oceanic wrote:
pam w wrote:
When I bought a shell jacket (a Haglofs, and I loved it) I ran into a huge problem finding a warm mid layer ... none of them was comfortable under the jacket because the arm holes/sleeves were too restricting.


In the 90's shell jackets were cut to comfortably wear multiple warm layers underneath them.

Now a slimmer silhouette is more fashionable, this is great if you are climbing or ski touring and need to wear just a thin fleece under your shell because you are working hard. The idea is that when you stop moving you put on a thick synthetic jacket over the top of your shell.

This approach works less well for lift served skiing as most skiers don't want the hassle of carrying around a thick 'over layering' jacket with them in their rucksack.

The best solution I've found for lift served skiing is to leave your shell jacket behind on the few really cold days, and to ski in an insulated jacket instead.

To the OP - An alternative to spending £200 on a midlayer would be to continue using your fleece as a mid layer, and to spend the money on an insulated jacket to wear in place of your Arcteryx shell on the really cold days.


Not sure where you got this idea. Arc'teryx, in particular, offers shell jackets in multiple fits. Trim, for climbing, ie minimal space for layering. Expedition, I think, is the name of the line designed for layering. For most skiers, the latter would be best.

Never heard of anyone put a layer on TOP of a shell. Something new for me. Perhaps it is done in climbing circles, but I have not seen it on the snow.

I wear a shell and layer according to the weather. Never been an issue from <20C, with wind chill, to low positive temps.


I wear my montane prism vest over my shell when the temperature plumbers or I get cold on a long lift.... Saves taking the shell off to add more layers which I would then take off as soon as I started skiing again.
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Recently got a load of Ortovox base, mid layer and socks from Tim at snowsheperd. Serious great bits of kit!! Very athletic fit which is what you want, but they regulat heat and whick sweat better than anything if used to date. Prior to that I was using Icebreaker (and still do on the lights stuff) and it equals / better the performance from those which is saying something!
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Post rewritten below.


Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Sun 18-01-15 16:25; edited 5 times in total
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Post rewritten below.


Last edited by So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much on Sun 18-01-15 16:25; edited 2 times in total
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@cstreat, Atom. Awesome. I have two. I love wearing them and I love the look on some people's faces when they say. "is that all you're wearing?".

My only gripe is that the lining on the sleeves doesn't work, for me, too well with short sleeves on. Kind of clings.
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ulmerhutte wrote:

Never heard of anyone put a layer on TOP of a shell. Something new for me. Perhaps it is done in climbing circles, but I have not seen it on the snow.


Louie Dawson wearing a synthetic jacket on top of his shell while ski mountaineering...

https://www.wildsnow.com/6231/chaos-or-jacket-review/

Article that suggests layering over your shell while ski touring...

http://blog.hillmap.com/2013/03/layering-for-backcountry-ski-touring.html

Some really cold days have convinced me that personally (on a minority of days) I need more insulation than my midlayers provide, sometimes it works best to wear it over the top of a shell, sometimes it is best to leave the shell at home and wear an insulated outer layer.

Ultimately I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with wearing a baggy uninsulated shell with lots of insulation under it, but I am trying to make the point that a lot of modern outdoor clothing design is going in a different direction, and that consequently a lot of modern shells are a slim cut that doesn't allow much room for layering.

(The Beta LT is an Arcteryx 'Trim fit' and designed to be worn with just one trim mid layer).
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Yes, the Beta LT is a trim fit but so is the Beta AR (same jacket but different Gore-tex), which I wear. You can still layer under it if you are trim yourself. On really cold days, I wear a merino base layer, Atom SV hoody and a primaloft gilet under the Beta AR. There is absolutely no restriction in my movement but I put that down to the sleeve and underarm design of Arc'teryx jackets and mid layers.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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My Haglofs Couloir Q (I think it was) jacket was lovely. A superb hood - best hood design I'd ever had. But yes, it was a trim fit. I had no problem fitting a nice chunky fleece underneath it except under the arms - it really felt too right for comfort under the arms, all scrunched up, though the fit round the rest of my body was great. I did feel it was a bit of a design flaw - I don't have fat arms!! In fact they're quite skinny.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Zero_G wrote:
Yes, the Beta LT is a trim fit but so is the Beta AR .


Arcteryx describe the Beta LT as trim fit and say that it was designed to wear with 'a trim synthetic or down filled mid-layer'...

http://www.arcteryx.com/Product.aspx?language=EN&gender=mens&model=Beta-LT-Jacket

Arcteryx describe the Beta AR as an athletic fit which is suitable for wear with 'a light fleece mid-layer and a synthetic or down filled mid-layer'.

http://www.arcteryx.com/product.aspx?language=EN&gender=Mens&model=Beta-AR-Jacket
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pam w, I was looking at the Couloir Q jacket but I didn't like the cut overall, it was tight across my shoulders and elbows but loose everywhere else. I love my Beta AR jacket. I've done over 32 weeks of skiing in it plus some rock and ice climbing, and I wash and rumble dry it regularly. Apart from some colour fading due to UV exposure, it looks like new. No frayed or abraded bits anywhere. Danged thing will probably outlast my knees.
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Oceanic, I tried both jackets on in the store, they fitted identically on me. If there's a difference in cut, I certainly couldn't tell.
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Quote:

Danged thing will probably outlast my knees.

A £17.50 jacket from T K MAxx will probably outlast my knee, the way it feels tonight after 4 hours of skiing on piste. Sad Have dosed it with ibuprofen (internal and topical) and gin and tonic.

The Haglofs jacket fitted me OK, just absolutely zero room under the arms. It looked fantastic with just a light fleece underneath it, but it was not to be. Sad
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Zero_G wrote:
Oceanic, I tried both jackets on in the store, they fitted identically on me. If there's a difference in cut, I certainly couldn't tell.


It's possible that the older versions of the jackets were different to the present models. Arcteryx are certainly explicit on their website that the present LT is a tighter cut than the present AR.
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Oceanic wrote:
It's possible that the older versions of the jackets were different to the present models.

True, I bought mine 5 years ago.
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So seeing as the OP has this years version of the Beta LT which has a ' trim fit ... sized for a base layer and a trim synthetic or down filled mid-layer' my suggestion would be that he wears the Beta LT with his fleece in good weather and spends his midlayer budget on an insulated jacket to wear over his fleece on the cold days...

Suggestions please?
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I suggest he take his jacket into a store that stocks mid layers and tries them on with the jacket.
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...and has a back up plan of buying an insulated outer layer if he can't fit any more than 'a trim synthetic or down filled mid-layer' underneath his Beta LT.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Some people love shells, others prefer insulated jackets. Not trying to convince anybody to go either way, but it is plain wrong to say that today's shells are not designed for layering. Look at the Arc'teryx Rush jacket; the fit is Expedition:

Quote:
Expedition fit is suitable for winter / extreme conditions. The larger cut accommodates multiple layers without binding or restricting movement. Our maximum fit with room for a base layer plus multiple, thick cold weather mid-layers.


I am comfortable quoting them because I wear a lot of their gear and it is what they say it is. No, I do not have anything to do with the company or selling their product.
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So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
ulmerhutte wrote:
it is plain wrong to say that today's shells are not designed for layering. Look at the Arc'teryx Rush jacket


I didn't say that, I said that A LOT of modern shells are a slim cut that is not designed for wearing with lots of layers underneath.

ulmerhutte wrote:
Look at the Arc'teryx Rush jacket; the fit is Expedition:
.


But the OP doesn't have an arcteyx Rush, he has a Beta LT, which is Arcteryx Trim Fit...

'Arc'teryx Fit Guide - Trim Fit. These trim fitting garments share motion-friendly traits with our Athletic fit, but are patterned with lower volume for reduced bulk. Our trim fit is sized for a base layer and a trim synthetic or down filled mid-layer'.
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You know it makes sense.
@Oceanic I think the op just wants his question answered, not to buy an alternative outer jacket wink
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
cstreat wrote:
@Oceanic I think the op just wants his question answered, not to buy an alternative outer jacket wink


Did you miss the bit where I pointed out that the manufacturers of his jacket say that the answer to his question doesn't exist? wink
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Lots of modern shells are designed to wear with just one or two thin mid layers underneath.

If you buy one you'll enjoy how fashionable you look in good weather. You'll also find them great for skinning in poor weather.

However, you won't find that the above combination is warm enough to wear on a chair lift when it is -20c.

Solution: Buy an insulated shell to wear instead of your skinny shell on cold days.
or, layer a synthetic jacket over the top of your skinny shell on cold days.
or, buy a baggier shell for cold days.
or, don't go skiing when it is really cold.

Some people will say that they run warm and are okay with minimal layers, they may be right, or they may think they are right, and discover that they are wrong one really cold day.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Hi sorry to hijack a thread for a bit, but can I ask about these soft shell goretex jackets. How waterproof are they? It's just these hard shell ones 'feel' horrible to wear, and the soft shell may just be a good inbetween (if they're waterproof and windproof that is).

Cheers
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
I've got limited experience of Gore softshell (personally one day ice climbing and one day skiing in Gore soft shell trousers, plus a week ski touring with a friend who was wearing Gore softshell trousers).

The material is windproof, and snow proof, but leaked in the rain. I understand that the membrane is basically first generation Goretex, so it will become less weatherproof as time goes on.
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Oceanic wrote:
Did you miss the bit where I pointed out that the manufacturers of his jacket say that the answer to his question doesn't exist?

Have you found that you are not able to use more than the recommended layers under your own Arc'teryx jacket? Because I have tried and the only problem I had was that I was too warm.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
^^^ This!
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Zero_G wrote:
Oceanic wrote:
Did you miss the bit where I pointed out that the manufacturers of his jacket say that the answer to his question doesn't exist?

Have you found that you are not able to use more than the recommended layers under your own Arc'teryx jacket? Because I have tried and the only problem I had was that I was too warm.


We've already established that your jacket is five years old, the design and cut of big brand jackets changes most years, so what works with a five year old jacket may not work with the latest one. Plus the owner may be slimmer or bigger than the Arcteryx fit model. Additionally people sometimes buy bigger jackets than the size which the designer intended them to.

We jointly came up with the answer several posts back. The OP should take his jacket to the shop and see what midlayers he can fit under his shell. If he finds that he can't fit sufficient layers under there he has the option of using his fleece as a mid layer, and spending his midlayer budget on an insulated outer jacket to wear on the minority of days which are too cold for his present set up.

We jointly came up with a helpful answer and I think that's great.


Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Mon 19-01-15 9:45; edited 2 times in total
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
hi all....have been a a local Blacks store and tried the Mountain Equipment Lightline down under my shell....It feels great....The down jacket had a removeable hood, but I tried with the hood on and it fits great.....I forgot to take a neck warmer with me but there was still plenty of space around that area.....No issues with movement and the down jacket seemed to provide good insulation.....

Basically I have decided to go this route (hardshell Goretex Pro or similar + down jacket under the shell) because I want to also wear the jackets not only for skiing but during winter or when going for a walk....I am even thinking of trying the shell for running....

In terms of fit design....Yes the Beta LT is Trim fit and the down jacket was less than a cm longer , i.e., you could see a tiny bit of the jacket.....But this is just cosmetic (for me personally).....

I may go to London to an Arc'teryx shop to try the Atom, but this ME Lightline was a great fit.....

Interesting discussing in this thread....
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Oceanic wrote:
the owner may be slimmer or bigger than the Arcteryx fit model. Additionally people sometimes buy bigger jackets than the size which the designer intended them to

Exactly. Thus, taking a dogmatic stance about what can or can't be worn under a jacket based on the recommendation published on the manufacturer's website is pointless.


redbaron51, good to hear!
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@redbaron51, Your reply reminded me of this blog post that I read a while ago, there might be some useful info in it for you.

https://www.wildsnow.com/14242/backcountry-ensemble-mountain-equipment/
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@Zero_G,

Oceanic wrote:

We jointly came up with a helpful answer and I think that's great.


I did try to be conciliatory, but you don't seem to want to accept the olive branch...

Ski poles at dawn on the Midi bridge?
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